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POUNDED 1866. 

VOL. V. 




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Eantroii : 

121, Fleet Street, B.C. 

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CONTENTS OF VOL V.— Ybab 1871. 


Price to Member^ 1*. ; to Xon-Members, 2s. 


86. — 1870. June 8L Db. Tk. Goij>siuckbb— On the Deficiencies in the 

Present Administration of Hindu Law 1 

87.— 1870. April 27. Phcrozshah M. MxHTA^Qn the East India (Laws 

and Regulations) Bill, Clause 6 56 

88.— 1870. April 27. Appendix. That Act in extenso 67 

89.— Collective Index of Journal [each Part of Vols. L— IV., 1867—1870]. 

90.— list of Officers. 


Price to McmberSj Is.; to Nan Members^ 2s, 

91. — 1871. Feb. 15. Dadabhai Naoroji — On the Commerce of India ... 69 

92.-1871. March 3. Ditto (Adjourned Discussion) 92 

92.— 1871. March 7. Sir Chas. Trrvelyax— On the Finances of India 

(Discussion Adjourned from the 27th July, 1870) ... 108 
94. — 1871. Feb. 17. Petition of the Council cf the East India Association 
to the House of Commons, praying for Select 
Committee to inquire ■ into the Financial and 
General Administration of India ; with Signatures 

of Council 128 

95.— 1871. May . Ditto ditto of the Bombay Branch of the East India 
Association praying also for Local Commissions to 
take Examinations on the spot 130 


Price to Members, Is.; to Non-Members^ 2». 

96.— 187L April 25. W. Tatler— Popular Education in India 1 

97.-1871. March 28. Sir James Elfhinstone— Ship Canal between India 

and Ceylon ... 37 

98. — 1871. May 3. Deputation to His Grace the Duke of Argyll, 

K.T. , Secretary of State for India, on that subject 62 

99.— 1871. Annual Report 68 

100.— 187L Abstract of Accounts 78 

Price to Members, Is.; to Non-Members, 2s. 

101. Dadabhai Naoeoji— Oij Financial Administration 

of India 81 

102. — 1871. June 9. Sir Bartle Frere— On the Means of Ascertaining 

Public Opinion in India 102 

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The following Nbwspapers and MAOAZiNfis are received and filed at 
the Reading Room of the East India Association, 20, Great George 
Street, Westminster. 

{Pree to Members,) 

Indian Newspapers. 

T?ie Delhi Gazette 

The Aligurh Gazette 

The Mofussilite 

The Argus 

The Hindu Be/ormer 

The Hindu Prakash 

The Na^ve Opinion 

The Times of India 

The Bengalee 

The Friend of India 

The Hindoo Patriot 

The Indian Daily Neios 

The Indian Economist^ with its Supplements, the * Statistical 

Beporter^ * and *AgricuItural Gazette of India * 

The Indian Mirror 

The Jabulpur Chronicle 

The Madrons A thenaum and Daily News 

The Madras Times 

The Indian Public Opinion 

The Kohi-noor 

Puhlisbed at Agra. 
„ ,, Aligurh. 

„ „ Allahabad. 

,, ,, Bombay. 

,, Calcutta. 

,, Jabulpur. 
,, Madras. 

,, Lahore. 

Newspapers Published in England. 

The Times. 

Tlie Standard. 

The Daily News, 


The Asiatic, with Summary of News from India ... 
The Asiatic, with Summary of News for India 


Allen's Indian Mail ^ 

The London and China Telegraph 

The Homeward Mail 

The Illustrated London News 

The Journal of the Society of Arts and Official Becord of 

the International Exhibitions 



Journal of the National Indian Association in Aid of the ) 

Social Progress in India J 

The Cotton Supply Beporter 

The Financial Beformer 

Hansard's Parliamentary Debates. 
Hansard's ParliamerUary Debates (On Indian Topics, specially extracted and 

printe<l for the East India Association). 
Journal of the Statistical Society. 

Published every Tuesday. 
„ Friday. 

„ Tuesday. 
,, Monday. 
,, Saturday. 

„ Friday. 
„ Wednesday. 

at Bristol. 

,, Manchester. 
„ Liverpool. 

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CONTENTS OF VOLS. I.-V. (1867-71) 





In London, at the EAST INDIA ASSOCIATION ROOMS, 20, Great George 

Street, Westminster. 
In Bombay, at the Office of the Bombay Branch of the East India Association, 

Apollo Street. 
In Calcutta, at the Office of the Association's Agent, Mr. Cowasjeb Pbstonjeb, 

19, Ezra Street. 

CONTENTS OF VOL. I.— Year 1867. 

{Note, — The Second Edition consists of the whole of this Yolame in one Cover, 
price, in England, Sa. ; in India, 2 Rupees.) 


Price to Members, Is. Qd. ; to Kon-Members, 2s. 6d, 

First Second 
Edition. EdiUon. 


1. — ^Introduction , 1 

2. — ^List of Members 6 

3.— Rules 8 

4.— 1867. March 14. First Annual Meeting 11 1 

5. — 1867. May 2. Lobd Lyvedbn — ^Address accepting the Presi- 
dentship of the Association 23 7 

6. — 1867. May 2. Dadabhai Naoroji — England's Duties to 

India ' 26 9 

7. — 1867. May 2. Deputation to Sib Stafford Noethcotb (to 
explain the effect of the General Order 
published by the Calcutta Government 
upon Lord Oranbourne's Bonus Compen- 
sation Despatch of the 8th of August, 

1866) 52 25 

8. — 1867. June 11. Sir A. Cotton — Irrigation and Water Transit 

inlndia 55 27 

9. — 1867. June 25. Adjourned Annual Meeting 87 44 


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Price to Members, Is. 61. ; to Non-Members, 2s. 6d. 

First Second 
Edition. Edition. 


10. — ^Introduction 115 

11. — ^List of Members 117 

12.— Enles 121 

13. — 1867. July 5. Dadabhai Naoeojt — ^Mysore 125 58 

14. — 1867. July 7. W. 0. Bonnerjee— Representative and Re- 
sponsible Government for India .. .. 157 77 

15.-1867. Aug. 6. Col. G. Halt— The Fisheries of India .. .. 200 98 

16.— 1867. Aug. 13. Discussion regarding Memorial to the Secre- 
tary of State for India " On the Admission 
of the Natives of India into the Indian 
Civil Service" 212 104 

17.— 1867. Aug. 21. Deputation to Sib Staffobd Nobthcote on 

the above subject 255 105 

CONTENTS OF VOL. IL— Year 1808. 


Price to Members, Is. Qd. ; to Non-Members, 2s. 6i. 

18.— List of Members ^ 

19.— Rules •• •• ^3 

20.— 1867. Nov. 13. W. C. Bonnbbjee— Reform of the Hindu Marriage 

Laws ' 17 

21 1867. Nov. 29. Dapabhai Naoroji— The Expenses of the Abyssinian 

War 46 

22 1867 Dec. 5. Presentation of an Address to Sib Babtle Feebb, 

G.C.S.I., K.C.B 64 

23.— 1867. Dec. 6. Sib A. Cotton— The Opening of the Godavery River 74 

24. 1867. Dec. 17. P. M. Mehta— The Educational System in the Pre- 
sidency of Bombay 103 

25—1868. Jan. 10. CoL. G. Halt- The Capabilities of the Hill Ranges 

of India, and Coflfee and Tea Planting on them .. 12& 

26.-1868. Jan. 21. Capt. R. A. Chadwick— The Furlough Regulations 

of the Indian Army •• •• 1*0 

27—1868. Jan. 31. E. B. Eastwick, M.P.— The Representation of India 

in the Imperial Parliament 151 

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Price to Members, Is. ; to Non-Members^ 2s. 


28. — 1868. Feb. 4. Majob Evans Bell — Claims of the Natives of India 
to a Share in the Executive Government of their 
Country 183 

29.— 1868. Feb. 11. P. M. Tait— On tlie Population and Mortality of 

Calcutta 200 

30.— 1868. Feb. 21. Thos. Bri<3<3&— Proposal of an Indian Policy under the 

New Reform Parliament 219 


Price to Members, Is. ; to Non-Members, 2s. 

31. — 1868. March 3. Eobt. Knight — India : a Review of England's 

Financial Eolations therewith . . . . ^ 227 


Price to Members, Is. ; to Non-Members, 2s. 

32.— 1868. May 6. Sib A. Cotton— On the Opening of the Godavery River 

(Adjourned Discussion) 285 

33. — 1868. June 6. Miss Caepenter — Educatioa and Reformatory Treat- 
ment 294 

34. — 1868. June 24. Lokd W. M. Hay — ^Note on Mr. Dadabhai Naoroji*s 
Paper of tlie 5th July, 1867, on the Mysore Suc- 
cession 305 

35.— 1868. July 8. Dadabhai Naoroji's Reply thereto 312 

36.— 1868. July 18. Annual Meeting 321 

37.-1868. Oct. 29. Dadabhai Naoboji— On the Duties of Local Indian 

Associations 327 

CONTENTS OF VOL. lU.— Yeab 1869. 

Price to Members, Is. / to Non-Members, 2s. 

38. — 1868. Nov. 4. Deputation to the Earl of Mayo to present a 

Memorial on the Importance of Irrigation in India 1 

39. — 1868. Dec. 8. Discussion on Indian Irrigation Works . . .. ,. .. 2 

40. — 1868. Dec. 18. Deputation to the Dckb of Argyll on the above 

Subjects 8 

41.— 1869. Jan. 1. F. Login, O.E.— The Material Improvement of India 15 

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Price to Members, Is. ; to Non Members, 2s. 

K'>. PACK 

42.— 1869. Feb, 2. W. Bowden, Jun.-— Agricultural Condition and Pros- 
pects of the Ckxiavery District (Madras Presidency, 
East India), with especial reference to Irrigation 
and Navigation Works 25 

43.— 1869. Feb. 18. Lobd Stanley op Aldeblet— The Establishment of a 
" Mussafir-Khaneh " or " Guest-house " for Asiatics 
in London 41 

44.— 1869. April 7. Sib Vincent Etbe — A Betrospect of the Affghan 
War, with reference to Passing Events in Central 
Asia 48 

45. — 1869. April 7. Appendix and Coloured Map to Sib V. Etbe's Paper 

on the Affghan War 62 


Price to Members, Is. ; to Non-Members, 2s. 
46. — List of Officers and Members i-xvi 

47. — 1869. May 5. Dadabhai Naoboji — Lecture at Bombay on the Work 

of the East India Association 65 

48.— 1869. May 22. Report of a Meeting held at Bombay for the Consider- 
ation of the Desirability of Forming a Bombay 
Branch of the East India Association 71 

49.— 1869. May 22. Rules of the Bombay Branch of the East India Asso- 
ciation 76 

50.— 1869. June 23. Annual Meeting .. .. 82 

51. — 1869. June 23. Annual Report of the Council of the East India Asso- 
ciation, 1868-9 86 

52, — 1869. July 7. Dadabhai Naoboji — Indian Civil Service Clause in 

the Governor-General of India Bill 88 

53.— 1869. July 21. Ditto (Adjourned Discussion) 97 

54.-1869. Oct. 12. P. M. Tait— On the Population and Mortality of 

Bombay 102 

55. — ^List of Donations 124 


Price to. Members, Is. ; to Non-Members, 2s. 

56. — 1868. April 4. Dadabhai Naoboji — On the Admission of Educated 

Natives into tho Indian Civil Service 125 

57. — 1869. Oct. 29. Hyde Clabkb — On Transport in India in reference to 

the Interest of England and India 157 

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58. — 1869. Nov. 17. George Simhons, O.E.^The Advantages of Euoourag- 
ing the English Language to become the Colloquial 
Tongue of Indui, with a Practical System for its 
Development 172 

59.-1869. Nov. 26. R. H. Elliot— On the Beneficial Effects of Caste Insti- 
tutions 177 

60. — 1869. Dec. 12. Dadabhai Naoqcji— The Bombay Cotlon Act of 1869 189 

CONTENTS OF VOL. IV.— Year 1870. 

Price to Members^ Is. ; to Non-Members^ 2«. 

61. — 1869. Dec. 14. Sib A. Cotton — On the Proposed Additional Expendi- 
ture of 100 Millions on Railways in India .. .. 1 

62. — 1870. Jan. -11. Db. A. Gbahah — On the Industrial Settlement of 

Europeans in the Hilly Climates of India .. .. 17 

63. — 1870. Jan. 28. I. T. Peichabi>— On the Relations between the Native 

States and the British Government 35 

64. — For 1870. Rules and Regulations for Indian Services, in reference to 
Competitive Examinations, Appointments, Agree- 
ments with Government, Furlough, &c., &c 49 

65. — ^List of Donations to the Permanent Fund 82 


Price to Members^ \s. ; to Non-Members, 2s, 

66.— 1869. Dec. 22. P. M. MEHTA—<Paper read before the Bombay Branch) 
On the Grant -in-Aid System in the Presidency of 
Bombay 89 

67.— 1870. Feb. 25. Liect.-Col. J. C. Phillips— The Bonus System in the 

Indian Army 98 

68. — 1870. March 8. W. Tatleb— The Delay of Justice to Indian Appellants 
in England : its Causes, Consequences, and possible 
Remedy 106 

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69.— 1870. March 25. Sir A. Cotton— On the Proposed Additional Expendi- 
ture of 100 Millions on Railways in India (First 
Adjourned Discussion) 116 

70.— 1870. May 25. Annual Meeting 136 

71.-1870. May 25. Annual Report of the Council of the East India Asso- 
ciation, 1869-70 140 

27.— Rules 148 


Price to Members^ Is. ; to Non-Members^ 2s. 

73.— 1870. April 29. Sib A. Cotton— On the Proposed Additional Expendi- 
ture of 100 Millions on Railways in India (Second 
Adjourned Discussion) 151 

74. — 1870. May 6. I. T. Prichard — On the Relations between the Native 
States and the British 6k)yemment (Adjourned 
Discussion) 164 

75. — 1870. May 13. Miss Carpenter — On the Work done by her for 

Female Education in India 175 

76.— 1870. June 30. W. S. Fit^w'illiam— On the Present and Future Pro- 
duct of Cotton in India compared with that of 
America and other Cotton-producing Countries .. 183 

77. — 1870. July 13. Major Evans Bell — Is India a Conquered Country ? 

andif so, What then? 201 


Price to Mefnbers, Is. ; to KonrMeniberSy 2s. 

78.— 1870. June 15. I. T. Prichard— On Indian Finance 219 

79.— 1870. June 22. Sir Bartle Frere— On Public Works in India . . .. 239 

80.— 1870. July 6. Ditto (Adjourned Discussion) 256 

81.— 1870. July 27. Dadabhai Naoroji— The Wants and Means of India . . 278 

82.-1870. July 27. Sir Chas. Trevelyan— On the Finances of India .. 290 

83. — 1870. July 27. Resolution to Memorialize Parliament for Select Com- 
mittees to inquire into the whole Administration of 
India 324 

84.— Rules 325 

85. — ^Petition to the House of Commons (in accordance with the above Resolu- 
tion) which was to be presented on Friday, 17th February, 1871, by Sir 
Charles J. Wingpield, K.C.S.I., C.B., M.P 327 

Title Pages and Lists of Contents for Vols. I.-IV. 

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CONTENTS OF VOL. V.— Year 1871. 


Price to Members, Is. ; to Non-Members, 2s. 


86. — 1870. June 8. Dr. Th. Goldstuckeb — On the Deficiencies in the 

Present Administration of Hindu Law 1 

87.— 1870. April 27. Pherozshah M. Mehta— On the East India (Laws 

and Regulations) Bill, Clause 6 56 

88.— 1870. April 27. Appendix. That Act in extenso 67 

89. — Collective Index of Journal. 

90.— List of Officers. 


Price to Members, Is. ; to Non-Members, 2s. 

91.— 1871. Feb. 15. Dadabhai Naoroji— On the Commerce of India 

92.-1871. March 3. Ditto (Adjourned Discussion) '^ 

93.-1871. March 7. Sir Chas. Treveltan— On the Finances of India 
(Discussion Adjourned from the 27th July, 1870) .. 

94.— 1871. Feb. 17. Petition of the Council of the East India Association 
to the House of Commons, praying for Select Com- 
mittee to inquire into the Financial and General 
Administration of India; with Signatures of Council 

95.-1871. May . Ditto ditto of the Bombay Branch of the East India 
Association praying also for Local Commissions to 
take examinations on the spot 


Price to Members, Is. ; to Non-Members, 2s. 

96.— 1871. April 25. W. Tayler— Popular Education in India 

97.-1871. March 28. Sir James Elphinstone— Ship Canal between India 
and Ceylon 

98. — 1871- May 3. Deputation to His Grace the Duke op Argyll, K.T., 
Secretary of State for India, on that subject . . 

99.— 1871. Annual Report 

100.-1871. Abstract of Accounts .. 

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( VIII ) 

The following Newspapbrs and Magazines are received and filed at 
the Heading Eoom of the East India Association, 20, Great George 
Street, Westminster. 

{Free to Members.) 

Indian Newspapers. 

The Delhi Gazette .. .. " Publislied at Agra. 

The Aligurh Gazette „ „ Aligurh. 

The Mofmsilite „ „ Allahabad. 

The Hindu Reformer „ „ Bombay. 

The Indu Prakash „ „ „ 

The Native Opinion „ „ „ 

The Times of India „ „ „ 

The Bengalee ^ . . „ „ Calcutta, 

The Friend of India „ „ „ 

The Hindoo Patriot . . ^ „ „ „ 

The Indian Daily News „ „ „ 

The Indian Economist^ with its Supplements, the ' Statistical^ 

Reporter,* and* Agricultural Gazette of India* .. ../ " " " 

The Indian Mirror „ „ „ 

The Jahulpur Chronicle „ „ Jabulpup. 

The Madras Athenasum and Daily News „ „ Madras. 

The Madras Times „ „ „ 

The Indian Public Opinion „ „ Lahore. 

Th^ Kohi-noor „ „ „ 

Newspapers Published in England. 

The Times, The Standard, The Daily News, 


The Asiatic, with Summary of News from India . . . . Published every Tuesday. 
The Asiatic, with Summary of N&ibs for India .... „ „ Friday. 


Allen's Indian Mail „ „ Tuesday. 

The London and China Telegraph „ „ Monday. 

The Homeward Mail „ „ Saturday. 

The Illustrated London News „ „ „ 

The Journal of the Society of Arts and Official Record of\ « . , 

the International Exhibitions / " " i^nday. 

Punch „ „ Wednesday. 

Journal of the Statistical Society. 
Journal of the National Indian Association in Aid of\ * -d • * i 

the Social Progress in India / " at Bristol. 

Ths European Mail. 

The Cotton Supply Reporter „ „ Manchester. 

The Financial Reformer ,, „ Liverpool. 

Hansards Parliamentary Debates. 

Hansard's Parliamentary Debates (On Indian Topics, specially extracted and printed 
for the East India Association). 

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WILLIAM TAYLEE, Esq., in the Chaib. 

The foUowing Paper was read by I>b. Th. Goldstuokeb, Professor of 
Sanskrit in University College, London, &c. : — 

On the Deficiencies in the Present AdministrcUion of Hindu Law, 

Thb attention of the East India Association having lately been drawn by 
Mr. W. Tayler to some urgent wants in the administration of justice, in so 
far as Indian litigants in general are concerned, it may not be inexpedient 
to bring imder your notice the difficulties which beset the course of 
justice in reference to a particular class of cases which it did not enter 
into the scope of Mr. Tayler s able paper to deal with, viz. of those cases 
which are governed by Hindu law. 

This law, I need not explain, concerns two topics of litigation only — 
that of inheritance and that of adoption — topics intimately connected 
with Hindu religious belief, and therefore allowed to remain free from 
the touch of foreign legislation. 

The Hindu law, it is likewise unnecessary for me to add, is laid down 
in the ancient and medisBval works of the Hindus, all of which are written 
in Sanskrit. It is contained in the code of Manu, in that of Y4jna- 
valkya, in the codes of numerous legislators, which are intermediate 
between, or posterior to, both these great authorities, and in a number of 
subsequent, but very important commentaries and digests, which have 
developed the ancient law, and ultimately, because latest in time, have 
become first in authority.* Amongst these, one of the most important in 
all matters relating to the law of inheritance is the Mitdkshard of Vijnd^ 
neSvara, which, as Colebrooke says, is, with the exception of Bengal, 
" received in all the schools of Hindu law, from Benares to the southern 

* See ' Y&jnavalkya-Dharma^astra,' I., 4, 5 ; H. T. Colebrooke's Pre- 
face to * Two Treatises on the Hindu Law of Inheritance ; ' A. F. Stenzler, 
"Zur Literatur der Indischen Gesetzbiicher," in A. Weber's * Indische 
Studien,' vol. i., pp. 232 ff. ; Standish Grove Grady, ' A Treatise on tho 
Hindoo Law of Inheritance,' pp. lix.-lxxiv. 

No. 1, Vol. V. B 

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extremity of the peninsula of India, as the chief groundwork of the doc- 
trines which they follow, and as an authority from which they rarely 
dissent."* The Mitakshard was expanded in subsequent digests, and, in 
consequence, the YivMachintdmaiii, the Eatnakara, and Yivadachandra, 
became the first legal authorities, on matters of inheritance, in Mithila 
(Tirhut) ; the Yiramitrodaya and the works of Kamal4kara became so 
at Benares; the Yyavahdramayukha amongst the Mahrattas, and the 
Smfitichandrik^ and Yyavahdra-M^dhaviya at Madras. 

In Bengal the paramount authority on the law of inheritance is Jimu- 
tay^hana's D4yabhSga, which in several important respects differs from 
the ruling of the Mitdkshard; and in agreement with it are Eaghunan- 
dana's Ddyatattva, ^rikfishiia-Tark&lai£kdra's Dayakramasaii^graha, be- 
sides various other works, which it is not necessary here to enumerate.l 

The best authorities on the law of adoption are the Dattakamimdi^sd, 
by Nanda Paiidita ; the Dattakachandrika, by Devaiida Bhat'tia ; and after 
them, the Dattakaniniaya, Dattakatilaka, Dattakadarpada, Dattakakau- 
mudi, Dattakadidhiti, and DattakasiddhSntamanjari. All these commen- 
taries and digests derive their authority from, and profess to be based 
on, the codes of Mann and Ydjaavalkya and the other lawgivers already 
alluded to. They do not admit that there is any real difference between 
the laws laid down in the ancient works ; and wherever any such differ- 
ences seem to exist, they either endeavour to reconcile them by the inter- 
pretations they put on their texts; or explain them away by the assump- 
tion of accidental omissions which they supply. And it is in conse- 
quence of such interpretations or additions that different conclusions have 
obtained in the Mitakshard- and the Bengal-schools, though both profess 
to derive their opinions from a correct and authoritative understanding 
of the same ancient texts. 

That all these commentaries and digests, whenever it suits their line 
of argument, occasionally also refer to other non-legal works of Sans- 
krit literature, such as the vedic Gfihyasiitras, the Mahdbhdrata, Edma- 
yaiia, the PurMas, and even the grammar of Fdiiini, need not surprise us, 
for their object is to convey the impression that a harmonious spirit per- 
vades the whole antiquity of India, and that their ruling, therefore, is 
in accordance with all that is sacred to the Hindu mind. 

Now, from the facts I have been able to gather, it would appear that, 
with scarcely any exception, the English judges who are entrusted with 
the administration of the Hindu law of inheritance and adoption, are not 

* ' Two Treatises,' Pref., p. iv. 

\ Compare the works mentioned in the note of the preceding page. 

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acquainted with the Sanskrit langnage, and are nnable therefore to found 
their decisions on a direct and immediate knowledge and examination of 
the original law sources just mentioned. They must resort, therefore, to 
second-hand information which they derive from translations, and the 
assistance afforded them by the pleadings of counsel and otherwise. But 
as I am probably not very wrong in assuming that for the most part the 
counsel, too, are indebted for their knowledge of the Hindu law, not to the 
original texts, but to translations of them, these translations are the real 
basis on which the administration of the Hindu law at present rests, and 
it will, therefore, be necessary to give a brief account of them. 

Of the code of Manu there exists the well-known complete translation 
of Sir W. Jones, first published in 1794, then in 1796, and reprinted by 
Haughton in 1825. It was translated into German by Huttner in 1797. 
A French translation of the original by Loiseleur Deslongchamps, mainly 
agreeing with that of his celebrated predecessor, appeared in 1833.* A 
complete translation in German of the code of Yajnavalkya was published 
by Professor Stenzler in 1849 ; and some portions of the same code trans- 
lated into English by Dr. Boer and Mr. Montriou appeared in 1859. 

The Mitakshara of Yijn4nesvara is a running commentary on each 
verse of Yajnavalkya's Institutes. The latter consist of three parts. The 
first treats of dchdra, or established rules of conduct, comprising such 

* About thirty years ago, I believe, there appeared at Calcutta a few 
parts of a new edition and translation of Manu, which seem to have re- 
mained almost unknown in Europe. The quarto volimie in question, when 
opened, contains on the left side in one column the text of Manu in De- 
vanS^gan, and in Bengali characters; and in another, a Bengali translation 
of the corresponding verses, a few foot-notes in Bengali being generally 
added to the page ; on the right side it contains in one column Sir W. 
Jones's translation, and parallel to it, in another column, a new English 
translation, which may be looked upon as a running criticism on the 
former. For though it repeats as much as it approves of Sir W. Jones's 
translation, in the very words of the latter, tlus is apparently done in 
order to make its divergence from it still more prominent; and this 
divergence is not inconsiderable, and very often marks a decided im- 
provement on the rendering of Sir W. Jones. Foot-notes in English, 
moreover, are frequently added to justify the discrepancies. Unfortu- 
nately — for there is no doubt that the author of the new translation was 
a very competent scholar — in the two copies of it known to me, the text 
breaks off at verse 40, and the translation at verse 33, of Book 3, while 
these two copies do not contain the name of the author or a date ; and 
since all my endeavours to learn more about the progress of the work 
have been unsuccessful, I apprehend that no more of it, than the portions 
I have seen, has appeared in print. The name of the editor and transla^ 
tor, as I learn from a friend, is Tarachund Chuckerbutt. 

B 2 

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subjects as education and marriage, funeral rites, &c. The second part 
treats of i-yat-aAdra, or the business of life, including amongst many other 
topics judicature and inheritance ; the third part treats of prdyaSchitta, 
and comprises penance, purification, transmigration, and kindred subjects. 
Of the Yyavahclra part of the MitclksharS. eight chapters translated by 
W. H. Macnaghten first appeared in 1829 ; and that portion of it which 
strictly relates to inheritance, about the fourteenth part of the whole 
work, exists in the well-known translation by Colebrooke, first published 
in 1810, and then edited in his Hindu law books by Mr. Whitley Stokes 
in 1865. Of the Vyavaharamayiikha, Harry Borradaile published a 
translation in 1827, which likewise reappeared in Mr. Stokes's EEindu 
law books in 1865. 

The YiY&dachintdmaiii, translated into English by Frossonno Coomar 
Tagore, was published in 1863 ; the Vyavah&ra-Mddhaviya, by Mr. A. C. 
Bumell, in 1868, and — through the medium of Tamul sources, as I am 
informed — the Smfitichandrikct, by Mr. T. Kristnasawmy Iyer, in 1867. 
Of Jimutavdhana's Dd.yabh4ga we possess the translation of Colebrooke, 
first published in 1810, and in his law books by Mr. Stokes in 1865 ; and 
of the Dayakramaaaifigraha — also edited in the same collection by the same 
distinguished scholar — the translation of Wynch, first published in 1818. 

Lastly, the Dattakamimai&sa and Dattakachandrik^ exist in a trans- 
lation by Sutherland, first published in 1821, then in 1825, and also 
embodied in Mr. Stokes's Hindu law books. . 

Besides these few translations, nothing whatever worth mentioning, 
out of the large bulk of Hindu law literature, is accessible to the 
English judge, if unacquainted with Sanskrit, except a few disconnected 
verses of the ancient lawgivers, put together, without any reference to the 
context in which they stand, in the Digest of Hindu law prepared by 
Jagann^tha under the directions of Sir W. Jones.* 

The question, then, which I have to raise is this : Do these trans- 
lations — a mere fraction, I need not say, of the large mass of Hindu 

* Colebrooke's opinion of this Digest is contained in' the following 
passage from his preface to the ' Two Treatises,' &c., p. ii. : — " In the 
preface to the translation of the Digest, I hinted an opinion unfavorable 
to the arrangement of it, as it has been executed by the native compiler. 
I have been confirmed in that opinion of the compilation, since its publi- 
cation ; and indeed the author's method of discussing together the dis- 
cordant opinions maintained by the lawyers of the several schools, 
without distinguishing in an intelligible manner which of them is the 
received doctrine of each school, but on the contrary leaving it uncertain 
whether any of the opinions stated by him do actually prevail, or which 
doctrine must now be considered to be in force and which obsolete, 

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law literature — suffice both in quality and quantity for ensuring to 
litigants a proper and satisfSactory administration of the Hindu law of 
inheritance and adoption ? 

Before giving my opinion on this point, I will place myself in the 
position of a judge who has no means of examining for himself the 
original text of a statute, and I should then have to assume that the ques- 
tion asked must be answered by him in the affirmative. For on what 
grounds could he decide that the translations enumerated above were in- 
sufficient in quantity, and how could he undertake to say that any 
objection mooted against their reliability was valid or not ? It would be 
a dangerous and, I hold, an arbitrary proceeding on his part were he to 
overrule, for instance, the translation of a passage by Tagore or Bumell, 
merely because the translation of the same passage by Colebrooke did not 
agree with it, and because the authority of Colebrooke stands higher than 
that of the scholars differing from him. For however high the authority 
of anyone, a doubt of this kind cannot be finally settled by it ; and a mere 
consideration of the immense progress made by Sanskrit studies since the 
time when the great Colebrooke wrote, of the large quantity of new materials 
that have since come to light, of all the advantages in short, which, in con- 
sequence of the very labours of Colebrooke, later workers in the same field 
must have over him, would naturally make a judge hesitate in disposing 
of such doubts simply on the ground of tradition and authority. 

Yet instances of such conflicting translations are by no means rare ; 
and where therefore for his final opinion the judge would have to rely on 
third parties, his position would at any rate not be safe. 

To illustrate this uncertainty I will choose at random a few examples 
as they occur to me. 

The Mit^kshara and the digests, as I have already observed, con- 
stantly support their statements by quotations from Manu, Yajnavalkya, 
and the other lawgivers ; but as every disputed case has not been fore- 
seen by them, these very quotations sometimes become the principal basis 
on which the judgment in a particular case has to rest. 

In dealing with the rights of brothers, a verse of Yajnavalkya is 
quoted by the D^yabh^ga of Jimutavahana, which Colebrooke translates 
as follows : — 

" A half-brother, being again associated, may take the succession ; not 

renders his work of little utility to persons conversant with the law, and 
of still less service to those who are not versed in Indian jurisprudence ; 
especially to the English reader, for whose use, through the medium of 
translation, the work was particularly intended." 

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a half-brother* though not re-united : but one united [by blood, though not 
by coparcenery] may obtain the property ; and not [exdtmvdy] the son of 
a different mother. *'| 

In the Yiy^dachintamaiii, Tagore translates this verse thus : — 

^ Ee-united step-brothers, but not brothers who live separated, shall 
take each other's property. A uterine brother even when he is separated, 
shall have the property. But a sepaarated step-brother cannot get it."| 

Again, in the Yyayaharamayukha we find Borradaile translating this 
verse : — 

^' One of a different womb, being again associated, may take the suc- 
cession ; not one of a different womb, if not re-united : but [a whole 
brother t/] re-united, obtains the property ; and not [exdusivd'y] the son 
of a different mother."§ 

Henoe, according to Colebrooke a brother united by blood ; according 
to Tagore, a uterine brother, even when he is separated, may obtain the 
property ; while according to Borradaile a whole brother may obtain it, 
but only on the condition of being re-united. Again, Colebrooke and 
Borradaile say that the son of a different mother cannot get the suc- 
cession exclusively, while Tagore says, that a step-brother cannot get it, 
if separated. 

Or, under the heading of effects not liable to partition, the Mitakshara 
cites a verse from Nclrada, which Colebrooke translates : — . 

" He who maintains the family of a brother studying science, shall 
take, be he ever so ignorant, a share of the wealth gained by science." | 

In the Yyavah&ra-Madhaviya, Mr. Bumell renders the same verse : — 

"A member of a family though he be ignorant, who supports his 
brother while learning science, shall get a share of the wealth acquired 
by that brother by learning." f 

And Tagore, in the YivSdachintamaiii : — 

" Wealth, acquired by a learned man, whose family was supported, 
during his absence from home to acquire learning, by a brother, shall be 
shared with the latter, even if he be ignorant." ** 

Hence, according to Tagore's version a brother acquires this right only 
when he supports his brother's family during his absence from home — a 
restriction not contained in Colebrooke's and Bumell's translation of the 
same passage. 

* The italics in this and the following quotations are intended to 
facilitate a comparison of the discrepancies. 

t XI., 5, 13. t P- 306. § IV., 9, 10. |) I., 4, 8. 

T P. 19. ** P. 253. 

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Again, when treating of the sncoession to a woman's peculiar pro- 
perty, Jimutavahana's Dayabhftga qnotes a verse of Devala, which ao- 
cording to Colebrooke says : — 

^ Her subsistence, her ornaments, her perquisite, and her gainsy are 
the separate property of a woman. She herself exclusively enjoys it ; 
and her husband has no right to use it, unless in distress."* 

But in the Yivftdachintftnuuii, Tagore renders the same verse 

'* Food and vesture, ornaments, perquisites, and wealth received by a 
woman from a hinsmaUy are her own property ;" &c.f 

Hence, in Colebrooke's translation the stridhana applies to all the 
gains of a woman ; while in that of Tagore — and he italicizes the words 
^from a kinsman" — ^it applies solely to the wealth which a woman 
receives /row a kinsman. 

The word perquisite (sometimes also called ''fee") in the foregoing 
quotations is the Sanskrit Stdka, and as an item of stridhana it is defined 
in Jimutavahana's D&yabhslga by a reference to Katy&yana, which Cole- 
brooke translates as follows : — 

"Whatever has been received, as a price, of workmen on houses, 
furniture and carriages, milking vessels and ornaments, is denominated 

In the Yyavahara-M&dhaviya Mr. Bumell renders this verse as 
follows: — 

" What is received as the price of utensils for the house, or cattle, or 
milch cows, for personal ornaments or for work, that is called ^ulkaJ* § 

And Tagore, in the Yiv^dachintdmaiii : — 

^ The small sums which are received by a woman as the price or 
rewards of household duties, using household utensils, tending beasts of 
burden, looking aflier milch cattle, taking care of ornaments of dress, or 
superintending servants, are called her perquisites." || 

The claims of a woman on the ground of ^ulka would therefore be 
greatly different according to the rendering by Colebrooke, Bumell, or 
Tagore of the same authoritative passage. 

An outcast, it is well known, is subject to legal disabilities ; he is not 
allowed to testify, and he is excluded from inheritance. Now Sir W. 
Jones, and after him Tagore,ir render the verse of Manu, IX., 202, in 
the following way : — 

''But it is just that' the heir who knows his duty should give all of 

* IV., 1, 15. t P. 263. X IV., 3, 19. 

§ P. il. II P. 258. IT ' Vivadach.,' p. 243. 

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them [viz. relatives who are excluded from inheritance] food and raiment 
for life without stint, according to the best of his power : he who gives 
them nothing sinks assuredly to a region of punishmevdJ^ 

But in the Mitdkshard* where this passage from Manu is quoted, 
Colebrooke renders it : — 

'^ But it is fit, that a wise man should give all of them food and 
raiment without stint to the best of his power : for he, who gives it not, 
shall be deemed an outcast," 

According to Sir W. Jones and Tagore, such a dereliction of duty 
would therefore entail a spiritual consequence only, but according to 
Colebrooke serious legal penalties too. 

Without multiplying instances like these, I may now ask how could 
a judge, without a knowledge of Sanskrit, decide which of these scholars 
is right, or whether their difference of translation is based on a different 
reading of the same text, and if so, which of these different readings has 
a claim to greater authority than the rest ? And if he cannot decide 
this question, what is to become of justice in all those cases that are 
governed by the law contained in these conflicting versions ? 

But as a Hindu has clearly a right to have justice done to him 
according to what are his Teal authorities, it is impossible to forego the 
question whether the present English translations of the law books can 
be implicitly relied upon as an equivalent for the originals. 

On the whole, I have no doubt they may ; and of all translations from 
Sanskrit into a European language I know of none to which, in my 
opinion, greater admiration is due than to the translation of Jimiitava- 
hana's and Vijn4ne6vara's law of inheritance by Colebrooke. So great, 
indeed, was the conscientiousness of that scholar, so thorough his under- 
standing of the Hindu mind, and so vast and accurate his Sanskrit 
learning, that there is always the strongest reason for hesitation when- 
ever one might feel disposed to question a rendering of his. And as 
Colebrooke's authority is still paramount in all law courts which have to 
deal with Hindu law, the aid afforded by his works to English judges 
cannot be too highly valued. 

But, in the first place, the same high opinion cannot be entertained 
of all the translations already mentioned, for, with the exception of the 
version of the Vyavah&ra-Mftdhaviya by Mr, Bumell, most of them are 
often too free and vague to be thoroughly reliable ; and even the trans- 
lation of the Yiv&dachint4maiii by the late Prossonno C. Tagore, is 

* n., 10, 5. 

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often more paraphrastic than is compatible with an accniate rendering 
of ikhe text. 

And in the second place, it should also be remembered that, apart 
&om Bnmell's, Tagore's, and Kristnasawmy's translations which ap- 
peared a few years ago, and those of Loiselenr Deslongchamps, 
Stenzler, and Eoer, which may likewise be looked upon as relating to 
our own period, the remaining important works date from the end of 
the last and the earlier part of the present century, when there was not 
a single critical editipn of any of their originals. Hence, with the MS. 
materials which have since come to light, with the numerous good 
editions of law texts to which it is now easy to refer, — I may here only 
name the admirable edition, by Bharatachandrai^omaiii, of Jimutay4- 
hana's Dayabhaga, with seven commentaries, published under the patron- 
age of P. C. Tagore, the various editions of Y^jnavalkya, with the whole 
Mitakshaia, published at Calcutta, Benares, and Bombay, and several 
editions of Manu, with the commentary of KuUukabhattiEi. ; in a word, — 
with the immense progress which Sanskrit studies have made for the 
last thirty years, both in India and Europe, it would be much more sur- 
prising if these translations were still found to stand the test of modem 
scholarship, than if they were found to fail. 

And from this point of view alone must we judge of imperfections 
which occur, not only in Borradaile, Wynch, and Sutherland, but also in 
Sir W. Jones's translation of Manu, and even in Colebrooke's translations 
of the two treatises of Yijnanei^vara and Jimutavahana. Yet that such 
imperfections exist, whatever the cause may be, is undeniable ; and as 
even the accomplished work of Colebrooke is not entirely exempt 
from them, it may easily be inferred that they call for the atten- 
tion of those who are answerable for the administration of the Hindu 

To illustrate the nature of the imperfections of which I here speak, 
and which have a material bearing on the law of succession, I will choose 
some instances from Colebrooke's * Two Treatises.' 

In Jimutavahana,'"' the right of the female line to succession is laid 
down in an important text from Yfihaspati. According to Colebrooke 
this text runs thus : — 

''The mother's sister, the maternal uncle, the father's sister, the 
mother-in-law, and the wife of an elder brother, are pronounced similar 
to mothers. If they leave no issue of their bodies, nor son [of a rival 

* IV., 3, 31. 

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wife], nor daughter's son, nor son of those persons, the sister's son and 
the rest shall take their property/' 

That in a series of female relatives the ^ maternal unde " should occnr, 
and be declared to be similar to a mother, would in itself be improbable ; 
nor is he really mentioned there ; and the miistake seems to have been 
caused by an omission in the MS. used by Colebrooke ; for according to 
the correct text the passage reads : — 

" The mother's sister, the wife of a vnatemdl uncle, the paternal unde's 
wife, the father's sister, the mother-in-law, and the wife of an elder 
brother are pronounced similar to mothers. If they leave no issue of 
their body, nor son, nor daughter's son, nor son of those persons, the 
sister's son and the rest shall take their property."* 

Hence the maternal uncle cannot claim on the ground of this passage, 
but in his stead the wife of a maternal uncle and the paternal uncle's 
wife can so claim. 

In the same chapter, where the son's prior right to inheritance is 
mentioned,! a quotation from Yfiddha-^t4tapa is made at the same 
time to show in what order the succession of other persons is regulated 
in accordance with the benefits which, through the Sr4ddha rites, they 
may confer on the soul of the deceased. Colebrooke renders the passage 
as follows : — 

" The son's preferable right too appears to rest on his presenting the 
greatest number of beneficial oblations, and on his rescuing his parent 
from heU. And a passage of Yfiddha-^tS^tapa expressly provides for the 
funeral oblations of these women : ' For the wife of a maternal uncle or of 
a sister's son, of a father-in-law and of a spiritual parent, of a friend and 
of a maternal grandfather, as well as for the sister of the mother or of 
the father, the oblation of food at obsequies must be performed. Such is 
the settled rule among those who are conversant with the Vedas.' " 

The drift of the quotation from Vfiddha-6lttatapa as it stands, would 
not be intelligible, for Jimutavahana alleges his words, not in order to 
state for whom the 6raddha should be performed, but by whom the benefits 
are conferred, and thus the title to inheritance in succession is acquired. 
But according to the words of the correct text, and the interpretation of 
them in the Dd.yaniniaya, the passage from Yfiddha-^t4tapa would have 
to be rendered thus : — 

* Calc. 8vo ed., 1829 (p. 154) ; Bharatach.'s ed. (p. 172^ : matuK svasa 
matulani pitfivyastii piifisvasa, ^va^uH purvajapatni cha matfitulyah 
prakirtitaH; yadasam auraso na syat suto dauhitra eva va, tatsuto va 
dhanam tasam svasriyady4H samapnuyuK. 

t IV., 3, 36. 

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''.... And a passage of Yfiddha-^at^tapa expressly provides for 
the funeral oblations of the following persons (masc.) : the maternal uncle 
(performs the Hr^ddha) for a sister's son, and a sister's son for his maternal 
nncle, (a son-in-law) for a father-in-law ; (a pnpil) for a spiritual teacher, 
(a friend) for a friend, and (a daughter's son) for a maternal grand- 
father. And also for the wives of these persons, and the sister of a 
mother and &ther, the oblation of food at obsequies must be performed. 
Such, &c."* 

The importance of this passage had a recent illustration in the case 
of Gridhari Lall Boy v, the Government of Bengal. Gridhari was the 
maternal uncle of the father of a deceased Zemindar, whose inheritance 
he claimed, no other heirs claiming; but as the Bengal Government 
maintained that there was no law-text under which a maternal uncle 
could succeed to the property of a sister's son, it held that this was a case 
of escheat, and the High Court at Calcutta actually delivered a judgment 
in favour of the Crown. Now, since it has never been denied that a clear 
duty to perform the ^rMdha implies a right to succeed, there can be no 
doubt that the judgment of the High Court must have been different, had 
it been able to avail itself of the correct translation of the passage quoted, 
proving as that does, the maternal uncle's duty to perform the ^raddha 
for a sister's son. 

In Jimutavdhana,! according to Colebrooke, a grandmother and great 
grandmother would seem to have no right to succeed, inasmuch as they 
take no part in the ^r&ddha. It is true that the passage alluded to would 
stand in direct contradiction with others in the same work, where the 
grandmother's and great grandmother's right is distinctly admitted, but 

* The original passage, according to the text published in Calc. 
1829 (p. 157), and Bharatach.*s edition (p. 175), is as follows : — Matulo 
bhagineyasya svasnyo mdtulasya cha, 6va^urasya guro^ chaiva sakhyur 
m&tamahasya cha, eteshai^ chaiva bharyabhaH svasur matuH pitns tath4, 
foaddhadanaBi tu kartavyam iti vedavidlii6 sthitir iti Vfiddha-^atatapa- 
vachanat. Amishai^ piddadatva-pratipadanM ayai^ pindad&navii^sh^d 

In the Ddyakaumudt, where this passage from ^atatapa is quoted 
(ed. Calc, p. 155), the following comment from the Ddyanirfuiya is 
appended to it : M&tulo bhUgineyasya pili'dadaH ; evai^ svasriyo m4tulasya 
piAdadaK; SvaSurasya jamata pindadaH; guroK piiidadatd 6ishyaH; 
m4t&maha8ya piiidadSta dauhitraH. Etesham matuladin4i6 bharyabhyah 
stribhyaH &4ddhad4nai]aL kartavyam iti vedarthopanibandhfiiiain nishtlia ; 
iti DayaniniayaH. 

t XI., 6, 3. 

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the fact is that no sucli contradiction results from the original text. 
Colebrooke's words are : — 

"Nor can it be pretended that the stepmother, grandmother and 
great grandmother take their places at the faneral repast, in consequence 
of [ancestors being deified] with their wives." 

Whereas the correct original text would in the translation run : — 

" Nor can it be pretended that a stepmother, a stepmother of a father, 
and a stepmother of a paternal grandfather, take their places at the 
funeral repast, in consequence of [ancestors being deified] with their 

In the translation of the Mit^ksharS-f — for I will also add an in- 
stance or two from this treatise — a curious mistake has been caused by 
Colebrooke's adopting part of the translation by Sir W. Jones of a 
passage of Manu, quoted by Yija&ne^vara in support of his rule re- 
garding effects not liable to partition. 

" If the horses or the like," Vijnane6vara says, " be numerous, they 
must be distributed among coheirs who live by the sale of them. If 
they cannot be divided, the number being unequal, they belong to the 
eldest brother, as ordained by Manu." And now follows the quotation 
from the latter, J which Colebrooke has rendered thus : — 

" Let them never divide a single goat or sheep, or a single beast with 
uncloven hoofs : a single goat or sheep belongs to the first-bom." 

How, on the ground of such a text from Manu, the MitSkshara could 
forbid the division of an unequal number of cattle, would be unintelli- 
gible. But what Manu really says is : — 

''If goats and sheep, together with beasts that have uncloven feet, 
are of an unequal number, let no division be made of them ; but let such 
an unequal number of goats and sheep (v. Z. let such goat and sheep, with 
beasts that have uncloven feet,) go to the first-bom." 

The error arose from the translators mistaking the import of the 
singular number which is required by Sanskrit compounds to express 
collectiveness, and which in the case of the Dvandva compound ajdmkam 

* Calc. ed. 1829 (p. 323), Bharatach.'s ed. (p. 332): Na cha sapa- 
tnikatvena sapatnimcltuH sapatnipitdmahyaK sapatniprapitamahy^d cha 
4rS.ddhe 'nuprave^H. Compare the analogous passage in the Virami- 
trodaya, f. 208, 6, U. 1 ff. 

In this instance a printer's mistake perhaps caused the inaccuracy in 
Colebrooke's rendering ; for if we read in it " the step- mother, -grand- 
mother," &c., the chief discrepancy would be removed. 

t I., 4, 18. } IX., 119. 

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"goats and sheep " is also interpreted in this sense by the commentator 
Kulllikabhat'ta, with a reference to the grammar of P&liini.* 

In the chapter which treats of the right of a widow to inherit the 
estate of one who leaves no male issue, the Mit^kshar^f says :— 

" In the first place, the wife shares the estate. 'Wife ' (patni) signifies 
a woman espoused in lawful wedlock ; conformably with the etymology 
of the term as implying a connexion with religious rites. The singular 
number ' wife ' (in the text of Ydjnavalhya) signifies the hind ; hence if there 
are several wives belonging to the same or different castes, they divide the 
property according to the shares {prescribed to them), and take it,** 

The italicized words are entirely omitted in Colebrooke's translation, 
and as there is no other passage in the Mit&kshar& which relates to the 
emergency of several wives surviving a man who leaves no male issue, it 
is needless to point out how important they are in a disputed case of this 
nature. The omission, I may add, has already been noticed by Mr. 
Stokes in a note to page 53 of his ' Hindu Law Books,' where he com- 
ments on a passage of Borradaile's Yyavaharamayukha. 

I need not enlarge any further on mistakes of this nature, which, as 
I have already observed, may chiefly have arisen from the imperfect con- 
dition of MSS. which were used for the translations ; but it is clear that 
they may become a serious impediment to rightful claims, and obstruct 
the course of justice. 

Apart however from the question, whether a judge could entirely 
rely on these translations of Sanskrit law texts, it remains to be seen 
whether, even in their most perfect condition, the existing translations 
of the Hindu law books could be held to suffice for the settlement of the 
numerous cases that arise from disputes in matters of Hindu inheritance 
and adoption. 

No one, I think, acquainted with the works enumerated at the com- 
mencement of this paper, and with other works of Sanskrit literature 
quoted by them, would affirm that they do suffice. He would, on the 
contrary, have to own that many law-books, as yet untranslated, are 
sometimes a material aid, and sometimes even indispensable, for a correct 
understanding of the Mit4kshar4 and the digest of Jimiitavahana. 

The Viramitrodaya, for instance, is to a large extent a full commen- 
ku*y on the Mit4kshar§,, which it copiously quotes ; and the same may be 

♦ Mit, (I., 4, 18) : Ajavikaifi saika^phari na jatu vishamai]^ bhajet, 
aj^vikar^ tu vishamam {v. I, saika6aphai6) jyeshfhasyaiva vidhiyate, iti 
Manu-smaraii§,t. — Kullukabhaf^a to Manu, IX., 119 : ajavikam iti paiSu- 
dvandvad vibhashayaikavadbhavaK (comp. P&n. II., 4, 11). 

t II., 1, 5. 

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said of the SmHtichandnkd, of wMch a few years ago not a line had ap- 
peared in print, and of which even now a trustworthy translation cannot 
be said to exist. Again, the seven commentaries on Jimiitay&liana's 
Dstyabh&ga, Baghnnandana's Smfititattva, the treatises of Kamal&kara, 
the Dayakanmudi, and kindred, works, are in numerous instances the best, 
if not the only, means for arriving at the precise meaning of its text. 
And so long as all these works remain untranslated, justice to the Hindus 
in matters of inheritance must remain uncertain, because it would 
often have to depend on the reasoning of the European mind, which, 
failing to appreciate the historical facts and the reUgious ground on 
which Hindu reasoning proceeds, must necessarily often become falla- 
cious. In a recent case tried in the High Court at Fort William, the 
Chief Justice gave the advice, not to introduce English notions into 
cases governed by Hindu law. ''The Hindu law of inheritance," he 
very justly observed, " is based upon the Hindu religion, and we must 
be cautious that in administering Hindu law we do not, by acting upon 
our notions derived from English law, inadvertently wound or offend the 
religious feelings of those who may be affected by our decisions ; or lay 
down principles at variance with the religions of those whose law we are 
administering.*' — (In the High Court of Judicature at Fort William. 
Ordinary original civil jurisdiction, 1st September, 1869. Oannendro 
Mohun Tagore v, Opendro Mohun Tagore, &c., p. 23.) 

Yet how much even judges of the highest standing are liable to err, 
if, for a knowledge of the positive Hindu law, they substitute that which 
from an English point of view may appear to be the most logical and 
faultless reasoning, will be seen by the instance of a Privy Council 
judgment which, if relied upon as a precedent, would materially alter 
the whole Hindu law of inheritance in one of its vital points. 

The judgment I am here alluding to is that delivered on the 30th of 
November, 1863, by the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council upon 
the appeal of Kattama Nauchear r. the H&ja of Sivaganga, from the 
Sudder Devanny Adawlut at Madras. 

The object of the litigation was the Zemindary of Sivaganga, situated 
in the Madras Presidency. Its last owner, who was in undisputed posses- 
sion of it, had died in 1829, leaving no male issue, but several wives by 
whom he had daughters ; and the daughter of one of those wives was the 
appellant in the case ; for the Sudder Court at Madras had decided against 
her claims, and pronounced in favour of the respondent, a nephew of the de- 
ceased, who at the time of the appeal was in possession of the Zemindary. 

The issues of the case, as stated in the judgment of the Judicial Com- 
mittee of the Privy Council, were these : — 

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1. Were Ganrivallabha (the deceased E4ja) and his brother (for the 
grandson of the latter was the respondent, the B4j& in possession) un- 
divided in estate, or had a partition taken place between them? 

2. If they were nndivided, was the Zemindary the self-acqnired and 
separate property of Gkixirivallabha (the deceased E&ja) ? And if so — 

3. What is the coarse of succession according to the Hindn law of 
the south of India of such an acquisition, where the family is in other 
respects an undivided family ? 

The first of these questions the judgment of the Judicial Committee 
of the Privy Council answered in the sense that the deceased Bdja and 
his brother were undivided in estate ; and this being a question of fact, 
we have simply to accept their Lordships' finding. 

In regard to the second question, the judgment held that the Zemin- 
dary was not the ancestral, but the self-acquired and separate property 
of the late Eaja ; and this, too, being a question of fact, no remark has 
to be added to it. 

Concerning the third, however, which is a question of law, the judg- 
ment went on to say, that according to the law in the south of India, as 
affecting members of an undivided family, the Zemindary would have 
passed to the nephew had it been ancestral property, but being self- 
acquired property, the daughter of one of the widows — the appellant in 
the case — was entitled to it. 

Now, in the first place, I must here observe that this judgment is 
exclusively based on what their Lordships consider to be the law of the 
Mit&kshar^ That the MitS>kshar4 is one of the law authorities in the 
south of India is unquestionable ; but it is likewise an undisputed fact 
that it is not the primary authority in that part of India. As before 
stated, the Mitakshara, which is merely a running commentary on the 
text of Y&jnavalkya, is incomplete in many respects ; and amongst the 
later works which enlarged on it and supplied its defects, the digests 
called Smiitichandrikd and Vyavdhdra-Mddhaviya became the chief 
authorities in the south. At the time when the Sivaganga case was 
pending, Mr. Bumell's translation of the Madhaviya did not exist, nor 
even the imperfect version of the Smfitichandrik^ by Mr. Kristnasawmy 
Iyer. These works were then accessible only as Sanskrit MSS. Hence 
not so much as an allusion to them occurs in the judgment of the Judicial 
Committee of the Privy Council ; and while it is not denied that the 
respondent had a right to have his claims dealt with according to the 
recognized primary law of his country, we here meet with the anomalous 
circumstance that they were decided upon according to what in the south 
of India is only considered as a secondary source of law. 

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And that this distinction is not merely a fortuitous one is proved 
by the case itself. For there is no text in the Mitakshara which clearly 
provides for it, whereas there are passages in the SmHtichandrikd and the 
Mddhaviya which, I have no doubt, would have proved to their Lord- 
ships' minds that the second question they had raised was irrelevant to 
the case, and that their final decision was even contrary to the very spirit 
of the law of the Mitdkshar^. 

But as they were not acquainted with the two Digests which, while 
in perfect accordance with the Mitdkshar^, elucidate its obscurities, their 
Lordships supplied the apparent defect of the Mitdkshard with argu- 
ments which, from a European point of reasoning, might bear out the 
conclusion at which they arrived, but from a Hindu point of view do 

I have already mentioned that the family of the appellant and the re- 
spondent were admittedly undivided in estate. Yet in a family of this 
description the judgment of the Judicial Committee raised the question as 
to what was in it ancestral, and what was self-acquired, property. Such a 
question, however, cannot judicially occur in an undivided family, so long 
as it remains undivided, which was here the case. The translated text of 
the Mit4kshar4 itself is silent on the law of succession in reference to an 
undivided family, for the text of Ydjnavalkya, which this commentary 
follows verse by verse, does not deal with it ; and in the first section of 
its second chapter, which treats of the right of widows to inherit in 
default of male issue, and on which the judgment in this case is exclu- 
sively based, nothing is stated affecting the rights of any member of 
an undivided family. On the other hand, the Vyavahdrct-MMhavtya, and 
especially the Smi-itichandrihd, very distinctly regulate the succession- 
rights in an undivided family : it results from them that only a male 
member of such a family can be heir, and that so long as the family 
remains undivided, the whole of the property, whether ancestral or seK- 
acquired, is vested in him.* The reasons of such a law are likewise 
dear. In an undivided family the principal religious duties are un- 
divided, and the benefits, therefore, to be bestowed on the soul of the 
deceased ancestor — benefits on which the right of succession rests — can 
be conferred only by one single member of the family, its actual head.f 

Not having before them this distinct law, which is quite in harmony 

* The question, therefore, what is ancestral and what is self-acquired 
property, can judicially only occur at the time when division takes place. 
t See Appendix. 

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with the law of Mann and all other legislators, and being left in doubt 
by a section of the MitaksharA, which having nothing whatever to do 
with the case in question could of course not enlighten them, the Lords 
of the Judicial Committee laid down a perfectly novel proposition which, 
if cUlopted, would alter the basis of the whole Hindu law. 

" There are two principles," the judgment says,* " on which the rule 
of succession, according to the Hindu law, appears to depend : the £rst is 
that which determines the right to offer the funeral oblation, and the 
degree in which the person making the offering is supposed to minister 
to the spiritual benefit of the deceased ; the other is an assumed right of 

But the fact is, that there is only one principle, that stated by the 
Beport in the first proposition, and that the second does not exist at all. 
Of the first. Sir W. Jones had already said that it contains the key to 
the whole Hindu law of inheritance ; and even the single text which the 
judgment adduces in support of its theory of a right of survivorship, 
had it been quoted in full, and with the remarks attached to it by the 
Smfitichandrika, would have shown that no such right can be inferred 
from it.f 

♦ Page 18. 

f After the words above quoted (" there are two principles 

right of survivorship ") the Eeport continues: — " Most of the authorities 
rest the uncontested right of widows to inherit the estates of their 
husbands, dying separated from their kindred, on the first of these prin- 
ciples (1 Strange, 135). But some ancient authorities also invoke the 
other principle (viz. that of survivorship). Vfihaspati (3 Dig. 468, tit. 
cccxcix ; see also Sir W. Jones' paper cited 2 Strange, 250) says : —' Of 
him whose wife is not deceased half the body survives; how should 
another take the property, while half the body of the owner lives ? ' " 
The text here quoted by the judgment reads, however, in full, as quoted 
by the Smfitichandrika, thus: — "In Scripture, in the traditional code, 
and in popular [practice, a wife (patnf) is declared by the wise to be half 
the body (of her husband), equaUy sharing the fruit of (his) pure and impure 
acts (t. 6. of virtue and vice). Of him whose wife is not deceased, half 
the body lives ; how then should another take his property while half 
the body of the owner lives? Although Sakulyas (distant kinsmen), 
although his father, his mother, and uterine brothers be present, the wife 
of him who died, leaving no male issue, shall take his share." (The same 
passage also occurs in Jimutavahana's Dayabhaga, XI., 1, 2, and in Sir 
W. Jones' paper, 2 Strange, 250, mentioned by the Report.) The Smfiti- 
chandrika (Gale, ed., p. 68) introduces this passage with the following 
words: — "Accordingly, after having pronounced that compared to other 
(relatives) a wife has a nearer claim on a^ccount of the circumstance that she 
has the property of conferring visible and ^iritual benefits (on the deceased), 

No. 1, Vol. V. c 

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The judgment further asks : — " If the first of these principles (the 
spiritual principle) were the only one involved, it would not be easy to 
see why the widow's right of inheritance should not extend to her hus- 
band's share in an undivided estate." 

This question is perfectly pertinent, but it is one of the great points 
of difference between the D4yabh&ga- and the Mit&kshara schools. The 
former assuming that under any conditions the widow would confer the 
greatest spiritual benefits on the soul of a deceased husband, provided he 
leaves no male issue, in consequence rules that, in such an emergency, 
she is always entitled to succeed to the property of the husband, whether 
the latter be divided or not. The Mitakshara school, on the contrary, 
not admitting this superior spiritual power of a widow in an undivided 
family, excludes her from the position she holds in the Dayabhaga school. 
But the Sivaganga case fell under the law of the Mitakshara school, and 
it is not for ua to decide whether the view of the latter regarding the 
spiritual power of a wife is, or is not, more correct than that of the 
Dayabhaga school. 

In short, " there being no positive text governing the case before the 
Judicial Committee"* — simply because their Lordships could not refer 
to the very law authorities conformably to which alone the case should 
have been decided — they relied on an irrelevant text of the Mitakshara, 
and in applying the law of succession which is applicable only to a 
divided family, to an undivided one, even mistook this text itself. 

That this judgment, if accepted as an authoritative interpretation of 
the Hindu law, would introduce a second principle, hitherto unknown, 
into the Hindu right of inheritance, and would entirely alter this law so 
far as undivided Hindu families are concerned, requires no further re- 

Yfihaspati has shown that the wife has the share of her husband's pro- 
perty, if there are no secondary (or adopted) sons, though father and 
other heirs as far downwards as the Sakulyas may be alive." Again, after 
having explained the import of the word " wife {paint) " in the passage 
quoted, the same law authority says: — "Accordingly, the term paint 
gives us to understand that her fitness to per form such religious acts, as the 
rites in honour of the manes, is the reason that she is entitled to take the share 
of her husband" It is clear, therefore, that though " acting upon our 
notions derived from English law," we might feel induced to infer from 
the word " lives," in the alleged passage, a right of survivorship, the 
Hindu mind, and especially the very law authority on which the judg- 
ment should have been based, was far from following such a course of 
reasoning. It looked, on the contrary, upon this passage as oonfirming 
the ^ritual principle, and this principle alone. 
* Page 16. 

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mark. But it seems equally clear that such a result could never have 
occurred if the Lords of the Judicial Committee had been in possession 
of more law texts than at the time were accessible to them. 

Another instance of the insufficiency of the law texts as hitherto 
translated, is aiSbrded by the judgment of the High Court of Calcutta in 
the matter Gridhari Lall Boy v. the Government of Bengal, to which 
I have already had occasion to refer. And as it implies a large class 
of cases which may equally suffer from the same cause, it will not be 
deemed superfluous to draw attention to it. 

I have just pointed out the great principle on which the Hindu law 
of inheritance is based. A kind of spiritual bargain is at the root of it. 
For the direct or indirect benefit of his future life, a person requires 
after his death certain religious ceremonies — the SrS.ddha — to be per- 
formed for him ; and since these ceremonies entail expense, his property 
is supposed to be the equivalent for such expense. A direct benefit from 
the Sraddha is derived, for instance, by a father, grandfSEither, and great- 
grand&ther, to whom the funeral cakes are offered by a son, grandson, 
or great-grandson ; and an indirect benefit, by a deceased whose relatives 
present the funeral cakes to his maiemai, grandfather, great-grandfather, 
and great-great-grandfather ; for by doing so, they perform for him that 
duty which, when alive, he would have been bound to perform.* Since, 
however, the nearer a person is related to the deceased, the greater is the 
direct or indirect benefit which he is able to confer on the latter's soul, 
the nearer, too, are his claims to the inheritance. But in the same 
degree as a person owes the ^rUddha to a relative, the purity of his body 
is also affected by the death of that relative ; and the time within which 
the impurity he suffers in consequence can be removed by certain reli- 
gious acts, depends therefore on the degree of relationship in which he 
stood to the deceased. Again, the right of marriage is affected by the 
degree of relationship, for within certain degrees marriage is strictly 
forbidden by the Hindu law. 

To obtain, therefore, an authoritative explanation of what, to a Hindu, 
are the degrees of relationship — and on these degrees, again, depends the 
order of succession — we have especially to look to those portions of the 
codes of law, and those separate treatises, which relate to the performance 
of the Sraddha, to the laws concerning impurity and the removal of it, 
and to the laws of marriage. All that occurs in regard to these im- 
portant topics under the head of inheritance is but incidentally stated 

* See 6. ^. Jtmutavaham, XL, 1, 34 ; XL, 6, 13. 

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there, as serving the argament in point, but not with a view of being an 
exhaustive treatment of the matter. On the whole, there is but little to 
be gathered from the chapter of inheritance regarding the rehtwe rights 
of heirs ; and if the number of such heirs is large, and the degrees of 
their affinity are intricate, there would be a considerable difficulty in 
deducing from the general argument merely, the precise right of a par-» 
ticular heir. 

Now, in a complete code of law like that of Manu or Y^jtlavalkya the 
subject of Sraddha, impurity and marriage, is dealt with in the dchdra 
and prdyakhtUa (the first and third) portions of the work, not in the 
second, a portion of which is deyoted to inheritance. But as of the 
commentatorial works on Manu, of the whole Mitakshar^ on the first and 
third books of Yajnavalkya, of the great work of Baghunandana, and of 
the numerous important works and treatises dealing with these topics, 
such as the Niniayasindhu, Dharmasindhus&ra, Srdddhaviveka, ^rMdha- 
nirdaya, Ach4radar^, and many others, nothing whatever as yet exists 
in translation, it may easily be surmised that judges unable to read 
these works in the original language are deprived of a very important 
means of deciding on the relative rights of claimants to successions, and 
that in many instances their decisions may be at fault ; for I do not 
think that, without a positive knowledge of the EEindu religion in its 
greatest detail, any European could undertake to say whether, for 
instance, a brother confers more or less benefit on the soul of a brother 
than his daughter's son; or whether a maternal grandmother on the 
father's side enjoys that privilege in a higher or lower degree than a 
paternal grandmother on the mother's side. In the judgment of the 
High Court at Calcutta, on the case to which I am about to attach some 
remarks, the learned judges indeed say : " It would be difficult for a 
person at the present day to give a clear and intelligible reason for many 
of the eccentricities and anomalies which characterize Hindu law of all 
schools, and this notwithstanding the encomium of the Pleader on its 
stem logic and uncompromising adherence to principles once laid 
down." * But what in this passage is called '^ eccentricities and anomik- 
lies," is nothing but the consequence of the religious views on which the 
6r&ddha ceremonies resi It is certainly difficult — ^nay, impossible — to 
understand this consequence without a knowledge of its cause, but the 
latter once mastered in its detail, I believe that " the encomium of the 
Pleader " would not be found an exaggerated one. 

* Gridhari Lall Boy v. the Bengal Government, ^ Beoord,' p. 98. 

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The case in question is the one already alluded to,* and the judgment 
which the High Court at Calcutta passed on it is highly instructiye in 
several respects, for it tells us that a maternal uncle is to a Hindu no 
heir at all, even if no other relatives of the deceased dispute his claim. 
To understand this extraordinary finding, it is necessary to see from what 
premises it was deduced. 

According to the degrees of relationship, the old lawgivers divided 
heirs into three categories, the first heing that of the SapiMas, or kindred 
connected by the PiMa or the funeral cake offered at the Sr&ddha, and 
extending to the seventh degree (including the survivor) in the ascending 
and descending male line ; the second, consisting of the SamdnodaJcas, or 
kindred connected by the libation of (udaka) water only offered at the 
Sraddha, who extend to the fourteenth degree ; and the third, comprising 
the so-called Bandhua or Bdndhcwas, who, in the chapter of the Mitak- 
shara and the D&yabh4ga treating of them, Colebrooke generally renders 
cognates. It was as one of the last category that Gridhari claimed as the 
maternal uncle of the father of a deceased Zemindar. But the judges of 
the High Court of Bengal did not allow the claim, on the ground that he 
was excluded from the right of inheritance by the definition given of the 
term handhu^ in the sixth section of the second chapter of the Mitakshara. 
The passc^e on which the judgment relied runs thus : — 

'' Bandhus (cognates) are of three kinds ; related to the person him- 
self, to his father, or to his mother: as is declared by the following 
text ' The sons of his own father's sister, the sons of his own mother's 
sister, and the sons of his own maternal uncle, must be considered as 
his own Bandhus, The sons of his father s paternal aunt, the sons of his 
father's miatemal aunt, and the sons of his father's maternal uncle, must 
be deemed hia father's Bandhus, The sons of his mother's paternal aunt, 
the sons of his mother's maternal aunt, and the sons of his mother's 
maternal uncle, must be reckoned his mother's Bandhus,' " f 

Now, as in this list the sons of a father's maternal uncle are called 
Bandhu, but not the father's maternal uncle himself, and as Gridhari did 
not pretend that he was either a Sapiida or a SamdnodaJca, he was 

His plea was, that the enumeration contained in the quoted text was 
not an exhaustive one, but merely an illustration of the line in which 
relatives called Bandhu must be sought for ; that a father's maternal uncle 
stood in the same position to his son (named in that list) as a maternal 
uncle to his (also named there) ; and . since a maternal uncle, he argued, 

P. 13. t Two Treatises, &c., p. 352, 

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was clearly intended to be inclnded in the list, a father's maternal uncle 
belonged to the relatives of the Bandhu category. The correctness of 
the analogy was admitted by the judgment,* but it still denied that a 
maternal uncle was intended to be incladed in the list. The Lords of 
the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, admitting the appellant's 
plea, reinstated him in his right, and there can be no question that they 
did justice to his claim ; but as the arguments on which their judgment 
was based would have been stronger, and would have been less hypo- 
thetical, than they now are, had their Lordships been able to avail them- 
selves of more and of safer texts than were at their disposal, and as 
neither the Bengal Government could ever have claimed the inheritance 
of Woopendro, nor the High Court of Calcutta pronounced against the 
Bandhu quaUty of a "maternal undo," had they possessed the same 
advantage, it falls within the scope of this paper to illustrate by this case 
the serious deficiencies which in the present administration of the Hindu 
law must be unavoidable. 

There were several ways of ascertaining whether the list of Bandhus 
relied upon by the Bengal Government, was an exhaustive one or not ; or 
in other words, whether a father's maternal uncle and a maternal uncle 
were included in, or excluded from, it. 

The first was to consult any of the works authoritatively treating of 
the duty of persons to perform the 6r&ddha, or of impurity which would 
affect relatives in consequence of a death, for as all such persons are 
eventually heirs, it would have been seen at once whether the few indi- 
viduals named in the quoted text could possibly have been intended for 
an exhaustive definition of the Bandhu category. Now, in all such works, 
6. g. the Dharmasindhus&ra, the Niniayasindhu, Eaghunandana's ^uddhi- 
tattva, &c., this category comprises all the connections on the mother's 
side up to the seventh degree in the ascending and descending line ; and 
I may almost say, as a matter of course, the maternal undo is distinctly 
mentioned by them. Even the passage from Jimutavahana's D&yabh&ga, 
adduced above,f might of itself have proved that in the absence of nearer 
relatives the " maternal uncle " has the right of performing the funeral 
rites for a sister's son, and it would have confirmed a similar conclusion 
resulting from the same Digest,:^ for in regard to a question like this 
there is no difference between the various schools. The judgment of the 
Jiidicial Committee says : § — "Mr. Forsyth, indeed, argued strongly against 
the right of the appellant to inherit, on tiie assumption that he was 

* Eecord, p. 96, line 62. f P. 13. 

t XL, 6, 12 and 13. § P. 3. 

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not entitled to offer the funeral oblations. But is this assumption well 
founded? There is evidence, the uncontradicted evidence of the family 
priest and others, that the appellant did, in point of fact, perform the 
shradh of Woopendro; and he seems, in the judgment of the priest, 
properly to have performed that function in the absence of any nearer 
kinsman." But the judgment adds: — "It is, however, unnecessary to 
determine whether this act of the appellant was regular or not. The 
issue in this case is not between two competing kinsmen, but between a 
kinsman of the deceased and the Crown." Yet on the regfdarity of this 
act all really depends, since the right of performing the ^ddha and that 
of succeeding are convertible terms, and, in the extreme case of an escheat 
to the Grown, even the king inherits only on the condition that he pro- 
vides for the funeral rites of the person to whom he succeeds, and the 
king is debarred from succession to a Brahman's property, because a man 
of the second or an inferior caste cannot minister to the soul of one of 
the first. That the family priest allowed the appellant to perform the 
Dr&ddha for his nephew, certainly raised a strong presumption in favour 
of the maternal uncle's right to do so ; but the certainty whether he really 
possessed this right could be established only on the ground of authori 
tative texts. 

The second mode of settling the doubt consisted in referring to the 
decision of other authorities of the Mitakshar4 school ; and of these, it 
would have been found that, for instance, the Vivddachintdma'^i, after 
quoting the same passage describing the three categories of Bandhus, as 
the Mitakshard, sums up its discussion by giving a list of heirs, amongst 
whom " the maternal uncle and the rest " correspond with the Bandhus of 
the MitaksharS..* The Lords of the Judicial Committee had the advan- 
tage of being able to resort to this method, since an important passage 
from the Vtramitrodaya — a digest which, as already observed, is often a 
full coimnentary on the Mitakshara — was accessible to them in a transla- 
tion given at p. 15 of the Eecord ; and they very justly referred to it in 
order to show that this authority included " the maternal uncle " in the 
Bandhu list alleged by the Mitdkshara. But it so happened that they 
had ground to suspect the correctness of the translation of this passage in 
one particular, and in consequence amended it hypothetically where it 
appeared to them to be at fault. Their conjecture was perfectly right ; 
but as this was the only passage of the kind from works of the Mitdkshara 
school, on which they had to rely for this argument, it would doubtless 

* See Tagore, pp. 298, 299 ; Sanskrit text, Calc. 1837, pp. 155, 156 : 
.... vyavaMtasakulyas tadabhave matul4dili. 

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have been mncli more satisfactory had they been in possession of an 
authoritative translation of the work to which the passage belongs.* 

The third and most accurate course of all was to ascertain whether 
the author of the MitS,kshar4 himself, by whose law the case was 
governed, elsewhere gave a definition of the term used by him, since, 
according to the first principle of interpretation, such a definition would 
necessarily remove all doubts. That the Lords of the Judicial Com- 
mittee and the learned judges belOw endeavoured to adopt this course 
also, it is needless to say ; but for the reasons already explained, the 
materials at their disposal did not enable them to arrive at anything like 
a safe conclusion. 

One obstacle that lay in their way arose firom the fact, that Colebrooke 
in his ' Two Treatises ' had accidentally varied the translation of the 
term Bandhu, and therefore made its identification in several places 
impossible. Thus in the Mitdkshard, IE., 1, 2 ; 5, 3 ; 6, 1 and 2, and in 
JimtUavdhana, XI., 1, 4 ; and 6, 12, he had rendered handhu ' cognate,' 
or * cognate kindred '; but in Mitdkskard, 11., 7, 1, 'relations'; in II., 12, 
1 and 2, 'relatives'; in II., 11, 6, 'kindred,' and 'relations'; and in 
JimtUavdhana, XI., 1, 5, ' kinsmen.' Had he not done so, the learned 

* The judgment says (p. 7) : — " After stating that the term ' Sakulya ' 
or distant kinsman found in the text of Manu, comprehends the three 
kinds of cognates, the commentator goes on to say, — ' The term cognates 
(Bandhus) in the text of Jogishwara must comprehend also the maternal 
uncles and the rest, otherwise the maternal uncles and the rest would be 
omitted, and their sons would be entitled to inherit, and not they them- 
selves, though nearer in the degree of affinity, a doctrine highly objection- 
able,' The passage as translated at p. 15 of the Eecord has ' then they 
themselves,' in place of ^not they themselves.' If this be the correct 
reading, it would follow that even if the exclusion of the maternal uncle 
and others not mentioned in the text relied upon by the respondents from 
the list of Bandhus were established, they would still, as relations, be 
heirs, whose title would be preferable to that of the king." But oddly 
enough, at p. 24 of the Record where a translation of the same passage 
from the Viramitrodaya occurs, the last words read : " and then they 
themselves, though never in the degree of affinity. A doctrine highly 
objecticmable. Quoted from the Beermithodoya." According to the 
Sanskrit text of the Viramitrodaya (Calc. 1815, p. 209, b. 1. 8) there can 
be no doubt that " not they themselves " is the correct rendering ; and 
that " never " is probably a misprint for " nearer " ; yet as it is a common 
occurrence in the Indian courts that Faddits consulted by the litigants 
difier in their rendering of the same text (compare also the note to p. 28) 
how is a judge, not knowing Sanskrit, to decide which rendering is 
legitimate ? 

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judges at Calcutta and the Lords of the Judicial Committee would have 
found that in its commentary on the verse where Y&jnayalkya says that 
" in a case of disputed partition the truth should be ascertained by the 
evidence of relatives called jndli^ relatives called handhu, by (other) 
witnesses, written proof or separate possession of house or field," the 
Mitakshar& * explains relatives called jn&ti, ^ bandhus on the father's 
side "; relatives called handhu^ " bandhus on the mother's side, viz. the 
maternal uncle and the rest/'f And this definition of handhu is sub« 

♦ II., 12, 2. 

I Tdjn,, n., 150: vibhaganihnave jn&tibandhusakshyabhilekhitaili, 
vibh&gabhavana jney& gfihakshetrai^ cha yautukaiH ; whereupon the MiU 
in bo& Calcutta editions (1815 and 1829) remarks : vibhagasya nihnave 
'palape, jn4tibhiH pitfibandhubhiH sakshibhir matuladibhir matfibandhu- 
bhiH purvoktalakshaiiaiH, &c. ; in the Benares ed. (1853), vibhagasya 
nihnave 'palape, jnatibhiK pitfibandubhir matuladibhin sakshibhiK pur- 
voktalakshadaiH, &c. ; in the Bombay ed. (1863), vibhagasya nihnave 'pa- 
Mpe jnatibhiK pitfibandubhir matfibandhubhir matuladibhih s4kshibhiH 
purvoktalakshanaiH, &c. In the Benares edition the word mdtribandhtibhiJi 
is evidently by mistake omitted- before matuladibhiH ; and in the Bombay 
.edition the order of the text-words of Yajnav., jndtiy handhu, sdhshin, is 
more closely followed than in the Calcutta editions, where the order is 
Jndt% sdkshin, handhu. But unless in the latter editions this inversion 
is the printer's mistake only — which is very possible on account of the 
severing of s^kshibhiH and p^rvoktalakshaiiaiH — ^it may have been in- 
tended to show that pitHhandhvbhiJi is the explanation of jnatibhiK, and 
mdtvlddibhiH, mdtnbandhiibhiH, that of handhubhiK, whereas otherwise it 
might be supposed (as Colebrooke did), tha,t jndtihhiK had been left un- 
explained, and pitfibandhubhir matuladibhir matfibondhubhiH were the 
words explaining handhvbhiJi. That the former view, however, is the 
correct one, results from the following parallel passages in which the 
text of Yajn. is commented upon : Viramitrodaya (p. 223 a, 1. 4, 5), 
vibhstgasya nihnave 'pal&pe vibhaktamadhye kenachit kfite jnatibhiH 
pitfibandhubhiH, bandhubhir matuladibhih, sakshibhiK, &c. ; Vyaoahdra- 
Mddhaviya (MSS.), jnatayaK pitfib&ndhavaK, bandhavds tu matuladayaK 
(v. I, matfibdndhavai cha; or without cha); JimHAavdhana (p. 359), 
prathamain jn&tayaK sapiiid^K s4kshiiiaK, ta^bhstve bandhupadopanitan 
sambandhinaK, tadabhava udadnd, api s&kshiiiaK (comp. ' Two Treatises,' 
p. 237 ; ch. xiv., § 3). Hence Colebrooke's rendering of Mit., II., 12, § 2, 
" if partition be denied or disputed, the fact may be known and certainty 
be obtained by the testimony of kinsmen, relatives of the father or of 
the mother, such as m^emal uncles and the rest, being competent 
witnesses as before described " — has to be altered into : " if partition be 
denied or disputed, the fact may be known and certainty be obtained by 
(the testimony of) relatives called jhdti, viz. the bandhus on the father's 
side; or (that of) relatives called hxndhu, viz. the bandhus on the 
mother's side, such as maternal uncles and the rest, or (other) witnesses, 
as before described." 

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stantially therefore the same as that giren by the Mit&kshar4,* where 
it defines handhu as "a SapM'da of a different family," f ^^^ is, a Sapiii'da 
on the mother's side. Nor does Jimiitavahana differ on this point from 
the MitS,kshara school, for when speaking of the sense in which Yajna- 
valkya understood the word handhu, he says,:^ '^to intimate that the 
maternal uncle shall inherit in consequence of the proximity of oblations, 
as presenting offerings to the maternal grandfather and the rest, which 
the deceased was bound to offer, Yajnavalkya employs the term handhu'^ 
But there are other passages, also, in the Mit^kshard which clearly 
show that its author did not intend to quote the list of the three catego- 
ries of Bandhus as an exhaustive one. They are contained, however, in 
that portion of the Mit4kshar4 not translated by Colebrooke. One of 
these had been supplied to the High Court at Calcutta for the purposes of 
the suit, but was singularly misunderstood by it. In Book II., v. 264, 
Ydjnavalkya where speaking of co-traders lays down this rule ; " if one 
(of them) having gone to a foreign country, dies, let the heirs, the hdn- 
dhavas, jndtisy or those who have come, take the property ; and in their 
default the king." Whereupon the Mitslkshard comments: "When of 
partners ' one who has gone to a foreign country dies,' then let ' the 
heirs,' that is, his son or other lineal descendants ; ' the hdndhavasy* that 
is, the relatives on the mother^ 8 side, viz. the maternal unde and the rest ; *' the 
jndtis,* that is Sapiiidas, except the lineal descendants ; ' or those who 
have come,' that is, the partners in business who have come from the 
foreign country, take his share ; and ' in their default,' that is, in default 
of ' the heirs,' &c., let the king take it."§ 

* II., 5, 3. 

t Blannagotraiiai]^ sapiiid^ndi^ bandhusabdena grahaii&t. 

i XI., 6, 12. 

§ The translation of this passage as given by me above differs from 
that which the Bengal Government had laid before the High Court, and 
it also differs from that tendered by the Appellant to the Court. The 
Eecord (p. 97) says : 

<' The words are, as translated by the Defendant, Eespondent [t. e. the 
Bengal Government] : — 

" Text, — * When one dies in a foreign country, let the descendants 
(Bundhoos), cognates, gentiles, or his companions, take the goods, or, 
in their default, the king.' 

" Commentary. — ' When he who is gone to a foreign country, of those 
who are associated in trade, dies, then his share should be inherited by 
his heirs, i,e, the son and other descendants, viz,, (Bundhoos) cognates, 
I. e., those on the mother's side, the maternal uncle, and others, viz,, the 
gentiles, i, e,, the Sapindahs, besides the son and other descendants, and 

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In this passage the High Conrt at Calcutta declared *' The words, 
maternal nncle and the rest," to be " an insertion over and above what is 
contained in the principal text as to Bundhoos "; and added: ^ Under these 
circumstances, as the translated passage refers to an exceptional state of 
things, it may be that the ordinary succession has been interfered with 
in a particular other than that above suggested, though the succession 
professes to follow the ordinary course in all other particulars save one."* 

It need scarcely be observed that there is not the slightest ground 

those who are come, t. 6., those among them associated in trade, from a 
foreign country, or in their default, the king shall take.' " 

No wonder that the Appellant objected to this jumble of words, where 
in the * Text,' ' Bundhoos' would be an explanation of * descendants,' 
instead of 'cognates'; and in the Commentary, too, 'Bundhoos' and 
^ gentiles' are made to explain the same word * descendants ' ; and the 
word * besides ' is intended for ' except.' But neither is the Appellant's 
version unobjectionable. It is given after the foregoing quotation, by 
the Becord, in these words : 

" Text. — A person having gone to a foreign country, his goods would 
be taken by his heir, and those related through a Bundhoo, or to a Bundhoo 
or agnatic relation, or person returning from that country. In default 
of heirs, the king will take." And his translation of the Commentary 
of the Mitllkshar^ is as follows : 

'* When a person from amongst the persons trading in fellowship, 
or common stock, goes to a foreign country and dies there, his share 
will be taken by his heir, t. e. offspring, i. e. son and other offspring, 
Bundhoos, relations on the mother's side, maternal uncles, and the rest, 
or others, .agnatic relations, that is to say, Sapindas, other than offspring, 
or by those coming back. Those who amongst the co-traders return 
from a foreign country, shall take ; in default of them, the king." 

. If this version were correct (I am not here alluding to the last 
sentence which is perhaps misprinted for *' . . . . coming back ; viz. 
those who . . . ."), the text of Yajfiavalkya would treat of persons who 
are " related through a Bandhu, or to a Bandhu" while the commentary 
of^the MitaksharS, would speak of Bandhus only; and as the words 
" related through a Bandhu, or to a Bandhu" are meant for Yajnavalkya's 
word hdndhava, it would follow that relatives called hdndhava are more 
distant heirs than those called handhu. Nor should I feel surprised 
if possibly a doubt of this kind had some influence on the High Courts 
when, as we shall see, it founded a very strange theory on this passage. 
But hdndhava, though a derivative of handhu, has absolutely the same 
sense as the latter, as results, not only from all the law-commentaries, but 
also from the grammatical Gada prajiiadi to Pd'hini V. 4, 38. — Here then 
are two litigants, both differently rendering the same important text to 
which they appeal ; and a Law Court, unable to examine this text in the 
original, is to decide which of them is right, or whether both are wrong ! 

* Becord, p. 98. 

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for such a theory ; and the judgment of the Judicial Committee of the 
Privy Council very justly remarks (p. 7)*: " Their Lordships cannot 
admit the reasonableness of this hypothesis, and think that even on the 
Mitakshara the question under consideration is at least uncertain." Tet 
instead of affording absolute proof that the definition here given by the 
Mitakshara of the term hdndhava or handhu is in accordance with the 
definition which the same work everywhere gives when it thinks proper 
to paraphrase the word bandhu, and that consequently no new definition 
was here intended for an " exceptional state of things," the judgment 
of the Judicial Committee proceeds to fortify its position by the passage, 
above alleged, from the Viramitrodaya, and therefore does not remove 
the doubt whether the Mitakshara itself countenanced the theory objected 
to or not. 

Yet one such definition of handhu, literally agreeing with that in the 
passage just quoted, might have been found in the passage mentioned 
before ;* and another, occurring in another, untranslated portion of the 
Mitakshard, is still more explicit; for it distinctly refers to the very 
{>assage in question, which contains the Bandhu list, and settles therefore 
even the last remnant of uncertainty. 

In Book m., V. 24, Ydjiiavalkya, treating of the season of impurity 
caused by the death of friends, says : '* Purification lasts a day when a 
guru dies, or a boarder, a vedic teacher, a maternal wncle or a Brahman 
versed in one vedic school." On which words the Mitakshara remarks : 
" ' Guru ' means a spiritual teacher ; ' boarder,' a pupil ; ' vedic teacher,' 
him who explains the Vedangas. By the word 'maternal unde* the 
relatives on the female side, viz. the bandhus of one's self, the mother's 
bandhus, and the father's bandhus are implied ; and who these are has 
been shown in (the commentary on) the verse of Yajnavalkya, which 
begins with the words, *the wife and the daughters,'"! that is, on the 
very same verse, II., 135 (Coleb., p. 324), to which the whole commentary 
of Sects. 1-7 of ch. ii. of the Mitakshara, and consequently also that of 
Sect. 6 (Coleb., p. 352) belongs. 

In short, the maternal uncle, so far from being excluded from the 
Bandhus, is almost invariably named as the very type of the whole 
category; and what relative indeed on the mother's side could have 
a nearer claim to that title than he ? 

Now that in spite of sucdi overwhelming evidence, even in one of the 

* P. 27, 1. 7. 

I Matulagrahaiienatmabandhavo matfibandhavah pitfibandhs^vai^ cha 
yonisambaddha upalakshyante, te cha patni duhitara ity atra danlitaM. 

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clearest cases possible, any law-court could nonsuit a claimant simply 
because the mass of proof which would have supported his right, was not 
accessible in English to the judge, appears to involve so anomalous 
a state of things that its continuance must be thought to be very unde- 

The best and most efl&cient means of remedying it would of course be 
a thorough acquaintance of the Indian judges with the original text of 
the Hindu law literature, and their ability to examine for themselves in 
the original language all the texts which may have a bearing on a case 
before them. Nor need such a remedy be looked upon as chimerical ; 
for the study of Sanskrit required for a legal training to this end would 
not imply more than the labour of a few years. 

But as some time might have to elapse before this object could be 
lEittained, it is at least to be hoped that the most immediate wants pointed 
out in this paper will be provided for by the competent authorities. 

A thorough revision of all the translations of Hindu law texts hitherto 
used in the Indian Courts should be undertaken at once, not in order to 
set them completely aside, but with the view of correcting their mis- 
takes while preserving all that is good in them, and of harmonizing their 
quotation of the same texts so as to render the identification of the latter 

And, besides, the most important works, as yet accessible only in 
Sanskrit, should be translated into English, so that at least the whole of 
Y«ljnavalkya*s Code, with the Mit&kshara, the Viramitrodaya, some com- 
mentaries of Jimutav&hana's Dd,, some of Eaghunandana's Tattvas, 
the Niniayasindhu, the Dharmasindhusara, the principal treatises on 
Sraddha, impurity, and marriage, and those on adoption, should soon be 
within the reach of an English judge. 

The study of Sanskrit is now so successfully pursued in India, and 
native scholarship has already given such excellent proof of its mastery 
bbth of Sanskrit and English, that with united efforts in India itself, 
there would be no difficulty, within a few years' time, in accomplishing 
this greatly needed work. 

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The oldest Hindu lawgivers lay down the rule that members of a 
united family have a joint community of worldly and spiritual interests. 
Hence, according to them, their income and expenditure is conjoint ; they 
cannot individually accept or bestow gifts, or make loans ; nor can they 
reciprocally bear testimony, or become sureties for one another ; more- 
over, certain of their religious duties being undivided, one member of 
the family only is entitled and obliged to perform them for the rest. 
Accordingly, in doubtful cases it was held that partition of a family 
was proved, if it could be shown that all or any of these criteria of 
union were wanting. The requirements of an advancing civilization^ 
however, led to a more definite explanation of this general rule. Trade, 
commerce, or similar causes, often compelling co-parceners to live away 
from home, or in different houses, the whole of their aflfeirs could not 
be managed conjointly, nor could oM their religious duties be performed 
in common. The difficulties, therefore, of determining from the criteria 
already alluded to whether a family was a divided or a united one, mul- 
tiplied in time, and the works of Colebrooke, Strange, Macnaghten, and 
Grady very justly dwell on them* A more recent work, however, that by 
Mr. E. West and Dr. J. G. Btihler,f is not satisfied with admitting, as its 
predecessors had done, that there are difficulties which must be dealt 
with according to their merits and as they arise ; it summarily rejects aU 
the criteria or ' signs of separation,' mentioned by the native authorities, 
as inconclusive, and consequently as devoid of value in a legal sense. 
" The will of the united co-parceners to effect a separation," the Editors 

* See Mr. Standish Grove Grady's * Treatise on the Hindoo Law of 
Inheritance* (1869), where, in Sec. ix., pp. 416 ff., on 'Evidence of Par- 
tition,' all that relates to this subject is very carefully collected. See also 
the ' Manual of Hindu Law,' by the same learned author (1871), Sec ix., 
pp. 273 ff. 

f A Digest of Hindu Law ; from the replies of the Shastris in the 
several Courts of the Bombay Presidency. Book II. Partition. Bombay, 
1869. As this work reached me after the foregoing paper had been read 
to the East India Association, the translation of the chapter of the Yira- 
mitrodaya " On a woman's separate property," contained in its Appendix 
(pp. 67 ff.), was then unknown to me, and has to be added to the trans- 
lation of Hindu Law Texts enumerated at pp. 5 and 6. 

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of this Digest Bay * ^* maj be (1) stated explicitly ; (2) or implied. As to 
express will it may be evidenced by documents or by declarations before 
witnesses . . . ." And " as to implied will," they continue,')' " the Hindu 
authors are prolix in their discussions of the circumstances, from which 
separation or union may be inferred. According to them the * signs' 
of separation are : — (a) the possession of separate shares ; (&) living and 
dining apart; (c) commission of acts incompatible with a state of union, 
such as trading with or lending money to each other, or separately to 
third parties, mutual gifts or suretyship. They add also giving evidence 
for each other, but from this in the present day no inference can be 
deduced, (d) The separate performance of religious ceremonies, t. e, of 
the daily Yaii^adeva, or food-oblation in the fire preceding the morning* 
meal ; of the Naivedya, or food-oblation placed before the tutelary deity ; 
of the two daily morning and evening burnt-offerings ; of the drfiddhas, 
or funeral oblations to the parents' manes, &c." The Editors then add : 
^' None of these signs of separation can be regarded as, by itself, conclu- 
sive" ; and again they say 4 " As no one of the marks of partition above 
enumerated can be considered conclusive, so neither can it be said that 
any particular assemblage of these alone will prove partition. It is in 
every case a question of fact to be determined like other questions of fact, 
upon the whole of the evidence adduced, circumstantial evidence being 

But here it must first be asked what the Editors of this Digest call 
* evidence ' in addition to that admitted by them as such under the head 
of " express will " ? For, if none of the evidence afforded by the * signs of 
separation,' — ^whether this evidence be taken by itself or combined, — can, 
as they assert, establish a proof of partition, what evidence is there left 
but ^ documents " or ^ declarations before witnesses " ? § Yet as denial 
of separation, and litigation ensuing on it, will rarely occur when the party 
interested in the denial knows that his opponent is in possession of a 
partition deed, or can produce witnesses before whom the intention to 
separate has been formally declared, and as under such circumstances 
it will offer no difficulty to a judge, while, on the other hand, the cases 
presenting a real difficulty will just be those in which no documentary 
or other evidence of a similar nature exists, — it is hard to appreciate 
the value of the advice which the Editors afford in their last quoted 
words. But as the most striking part of their statement consists in the 
summary rejection, as legal proof, of all and each of the '* signs of separa- 

* Introduction, p. xii. \ P. xiii. 

X P. XV. § P. xii. 

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lion," — whereas some of these are so strongly relied upon by the native 
authorities, and have been so cautiously spoken of by Colebrooke, Strange, 
Grady, and other European writers of eminence, — it will not be inex- 
pedient to inquire whether in this matter a judge may henceforth feel 
entitled to dispense with a knowledge of all that is stated on this point 
in EEindu works, and simply content himself with endorsing the opinion 
of the Editors of the Bombay Digest. 

One of the most prominent " signs of separation," as we hare seen, is 
based on religious grounds. It concerns the joint or separate performance 
of certain religious rites, some of which are mentioned in the quotation 
jiist given from the Bombay Digest. In regard to the legal irrelevance 
of these, the Editors of this Digest even grow emphatic. " The separate 
performance of the Yaiiivadeva sacrifice, of »r&ddhas and other religions 
rites,'* they say,* " is still less conclusive," viz. than the " living and dining 
apart " previously spoken of and declared by them to be " not conclusive of 
the fiEM^t " of separation. They seem to arrive at this inference from the 
interrogatory connected with a case to which they refer, and from a 
passage of a native authority to which they point, as forming part of their 
remarks on this case. 

The case is that reported by them at p. 58. It gave rise, on the part 
of the Court, to the following amongst other questions : " He [viz. the 
son of an elder wife] was in the habit of performing the sacrifice called 
Yaii^vadeva on his own account. Should he be considered a separated 
member of the family? and can any man whose food is cooked sepa- 
rately perform the ceremony, or is it a sign of separation?" Upon 
which the Paddit so questioned replied if '* Those members of a family 
who individually perform the ceremonies of Yaii^vadeva and Euladharma, 
and have signed a F^khat, may be considered separated. It does not 
appear from the Shastras that the elder son of a person is obliged to per- 
form the Yaisvadeva on his own account, although his father and st^- 
brother are united in interests and he himseK lives and cooks his food 
separately in the same town without receiving the share of his ancestral 
property. A person may, however, perform the ceremony by the permis- 
sion of his father." 

On this reply of the Paiidit the Editors again observe : % " The 
Shastri is right in not considering the separate performance of the 
Yaii^vadeva as a certain sign of ' partition,' though it is enumerated in 
the Smfitis among these signs. The general custom is, in the present 
day, that even undivided coparceners, who take their meals separately, 

*P. xiv. tP-S9. J P. 60. 

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perform this ceremony, at least once every day, each for himself, because 
it is considered to purify the food." But here it may be observed that all 
the Paddit really said was, that when a man lives and cooks his food 
apart from his fftther and stepbrother who are united, it does not appear 
from the Shastras that he is obliged to perform the Vai^vadeva on his own 
account; and what follows therefore from his words is, that if, living 
apart from his relatives, he were obliged to perform the Vai6vadeva, such 
an chUgcUion would prove that there was no union between him and the 
relatives named. The real drift of his answer, therefore, was not to show, 
as the Editors suppose, that the separate performance of the Yai^vadeva 
was in no case a " certain sign of partition," but to recommend to the 
Court the investigation of the fact whether the person in question was or 
was not ^^ obliged" to perform this ceremony separately from his relatives. 

In a note on the word Yaiilvadeva^ the Editors had previously said * 
that " this ceremony is performed for the sanctification of food before 
dinner," and after the words above quoted (" because it is con- 
sidered to purify the food "), they continue : " We subjoin a passage on 
this point from the Dharmasindhu : ] (Dharm. f. 90, p. 2, 1. 3 and 6 
Bombay lith. ed.) : juhiydt sarpishabhyaktair grihye 'gnau lauMke 'jji vd^ 
yasminn agnau packed anna'Ah tasmin homo vidMyate. AmbhaJctdndm pdka- 
bhede jprithag vaihadevaH TcHtakHta iti bluMcjiye ; * Rice mixed with clari- 
fied butter should be offered in the sacred domestic fire, or in a common 
fire. The oblations (at the Yai^vadeva) should be made in that fire, with 

which the food is cooked Bhat'lKXJidikshita declares that, 

if members of an undivided family prepare their food separately, the 
Yai^vadeva-offering may be performed separately (in each household) or 

Their remark, however, regarding the purpose of the Yai6vadeva, as 
well as their quotation from the Dharmasindhusara and their translation 
of it, are very inaccurate. For, as will presently be seen, the Dharma- 
sindhusara states that the object of the Yai^vadeva is the consecration of 
one's self and of the food ; whereas the Mit^kshar^, in conunenting on 
Y&jnavalkya, I., v. 103, altogether contests the doctrine that the Y. is 
intended for the consecration of the food, and after some discussion on 
this theory, arrives at the conclusion that it solely concerns the (spi- 
ritual) benefit of the person performing it. And as in quoting from the 
Dharmasindhusara the Editors in the beginning of the passage alleged 

♦ P. 59. 

t An abbreviation, by the Editors, of Dharmasindhusara, which is the 
full name of the work meant, by KdSindtha. 
No. 1, Yol. Y. D 

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have left oat half a verae which essentially belongs to it, while before the 
words ascribed to Bhat'ifoji they haye omitted another material portion 
of the text, their translation is not only incorrect, but the very gronnd 
on which the author of the Dharmasindhusara adduced Bhat'tbji, has been 
misunderstood by them.* But even supposing that all the remarks of 
the Editors on the Vai^vadeva were correct, they would still not prove 
anything in respect of the legal inconclusiveness of " Srdddhas and other 
religious rites," all of which are included in their sweeping assertion 
which sets these rites aside for the purpose of legal evidence. 

As the object of this paper, however, is not to correct the mistakes 
of any individual writer, but to show how necessary it is that a judge 
should examine for himself all that the native authorities teach in regard 
to questions that may come before him, and how the very replies of even 
the most learned PaiS'dits may be conducive to fallacies — since the cor- 
rectness of a reply mainly depends on the correctness and x>ertiQence 
of the question put, — I will, as an illustration of the difficulties 
which beset this subject, add a translation of a few passages from three 
works only, since oven these will clearly prove that the bearing of the 
performance of certain religious ceremonies on the question of imion or 
division cannot be dispatched in the offhand manner implied in the ruling 
of the Bombay Digest. 

In treating of the daily religious duties of a Hindu the Bharmamn-- 
dhusdra under the heading 'on the duty of the fifth division' (of a day 
divided into eight parts) contains the following passage : t 

" The Vai^vadeva is to be performed for the removal of (sins com- 
mitted in) the five Sunds. The five Sttnds are the five places where injury 
may be done (to living beings) ; viz. the wooden mortar in which grain 
is threshed ; the stone slab on which condiments, &c., are ground with a 
muller ; a fire-place ; a water-jar, and a broom. J The commencement of 

♦ The essential words omitted before ^juhuydt' are: gfihajmkvaha- 
vishyannais tailaksh4rddivarjitaiK, (juhuydt, &c.) ; and those which should 
have preceded, and are absolutely required at the quotation * avibhaJctdndmy 
&c.,' from Bhat'tbji, read: sa chayaci vaisvadeva dtmasai6skarartho 
'nnasai]&skararthai§ cha; ten4vibha£tanam pakaikye pfithag vai^vadevo 
na, vibhaktandi6 tu pakaikye 'pi havishyantareiSa pfithag eva, (avibhak- 
tdndm, &c.) For the translation of the whole passage, see p. 37, 11. 10 ff. 

t Dharmas., ed. Bombay (1861), HI. A., fol. 956, 11. 7ff. 

{ The object of the Vai6vadeva is similarly defined in a passage of 
Satatapa quoted in Eaghunaudana's Ahnikatattva (ed. Calc. 1834, vol. i., 
p. 251) ; and the five Sunds are frequently alluded to, e,g, in Manu, III., 
68, 6ankardcharya's comm. on the Bhagavadgitst, III., 13, and they are 
also defined in Anandagiri's and Sridharasvdmin's gloss on the latter. 

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the Yaii^adeya is earlj (t . 6. in the morning), not like that of the Agnihotra, 
late (t. e. in the eyening) ; accordingly the resolye to perform it, as ex- 
pressed in the words : " early and late, the Yaii^yadeya (should be per- 
formed ").* The fiye great sacraments are to be performed day by day ; 
and these are the sacrament of the Veda, that of the gods, that of created 
beings, that of the manes, and that of men.^ The sacrament of the Veda 
has been already explained. % Those who follow the ritual of the Eig- 
veda consider that the Yai^yadeya consists of the three sacraments of the 
gods, created beings, and manes. The sacrament of men is the giying 
food to men. An oblation of food cooked in the house and fit for 
sacrificial purposes,§ free from sesamum-oil, factitious salt, and such like 

* From Baghinandana (yol. i., p. 250) and similar works it results 
that the proper time for the performance of the V. is always during the 
day, and that the eyening performance of this ceremony is permitted only 
under special conditions, as for instance when ' cooking ' takes place for 
the entertainment of a guest. Some authorities, moreoyer, absolutely 
forbid the repetition of the ceremony on the same day, whether by day 
time or in the eyening. But compare p. 39, 1. 15. 

t These fiye mdhdyajnaa, * great sacrific^ ' or * great sacraments,' are 
mentioned in the oldest works, e. g, in the Satapatha-Brahmaiia (XI., 5, 
6, 1)— also quoted from this BrahmaiSa in Sridatta's Acharadar6a — ; 
in Manu, I., 112, &c., Yajiiayalkya, I., 102, &o.—Manu (III., 70) defines 
them as follows : " teaching (which, according to Kulluka, includes read- 
ing, yiz. the Yedas) is the sacrament of the Yeda ; offering rice &c. or 
water is the sacrament of the manes ; an oblation (of food) in fire is the 
sacrament of the gods ; presentation of food (yiz. throwing ghee or rice, 
or the like, in the open air) to created beings, is the sacrament of created 
beings ; hospitality is the sacrament of men." 

X Yiz. in a preceding portion of the text, here not translated. 

§ Substances, called havishya, or fit for sacrificial purposes, are fre- 
quently mentioned in ritual works, as in the Kdtyayana 6rauta Sutras 
( YII., 2, 2), or in works dealing with ritual matters, as in Manu, Yajna- 
yalkya, &c. The MitdksTiard in its comment on Ydjn., I., 239, names as 
such: rice of different yarieties, barley, wheat, kidney-beans of two 
yarieties (phaseolus mungo and phaseolus radiatus), wild grain (wild 
roots, or in general such food as forms the diet of an ascetic), a black 
potherb called kalaSdJcay mahdSalka [explained as a kind of fish ; Wils. : a 
prawn or shrimp], cardamoms, ginger, black pepper, asafodtida, molasses, 
candied sugar, camphor, rock-salt, sea-salt, bread-fruit, cocoanut, the 
plants called kadali and hadara, the produce of a cow, — yiz. milk, curds, 
butter, or other preparations made of her milk, — honey, flesh, &c. On 
the other hand, as substances unfit for sacrificial oblations the Mitdkshard 
names : kodrava (paspalum kora), Tnasura (eryum hirsutum), chick-pea, 
TtulaUha (dolichos biflorus), pulaka, a legume called nishpdva, a kind of 
bean called rdjamdsha (dolichos catjang), the white pumpkin gourd, two 
kinds of the egg-plant (pdritdku and vhhati), upodikd (basella rubra), the 

D 2 

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(unsacnficial substances), and dressed with gbee, one should make in the 
(sacred) domestic fire, or the ordinary fire ; (for) the law ordains that such 
an oblation (should be made) in the fire with which a man cooks his food.* 
Since the Sraddha occurring at fixed periods is performed by (performing) 
the sacrament of the manes included in the Yaii^yadeya ceremony, no 
entertainment of Brahmans takes place (as it would) on behalf of the 
SrMdha occurring at fixed periods. And since also the ^rdddha, (due) on 
the day of new-moon, is performed by (performing) it (viz. the sacrament 
of the manes), Bhat'tbji says, that those who are unable to perform the 
Srdddha, due on the day of new-moon (regularly), should do so once (at 
least) in the course of a year. In the case of (impurity arising from) 
childbirth, the rule is that the five great sacraments are dropped. And 
this VaiiSvadeva is performed for the sake of one's own consecration and 
that of the food.! Therefore amongst members of a united family when 
they cook (their food) in common, a separate performance of the Vai- 
6vadeva (by each member) is not (allowed) ; but amongst members of a 
divided family, even when they cook (their food) in common, the Vai- 
6vadeva (must be performed) separately (by each of them) with some sort 
of substance fit for sacrificial purposes. According to Bhaftoji, amongst 
members of a united family, when the cooking (of their food) does not 
take place in common, the Yai^vadeva may be performed separately or 
not.j: When no cooking (of food), takes place on the eleventh and 

shoot of a bamboo, longpepper, orris root, Satapushpd (anethum sowa), 
saline earth, ordure, factitious sedt, a bufEalo's-chounri, her milk, — curds, 
— butter, or other produce of buflfiEdo's milk ; &c. — Compare also on the 
same subject Manu, III., w. 266 fil, the Yishdu-Purajia, Book III., ch. 16 ; 
the Nir'Aayasindhu, I., fol. 13 ; BaghunandanOy vol. i., pp. 70, 142 and 
250 ; ^ridalUCa JchdradarSa (Benares, 1864), fol. 56 a; &c. 

* The Acharadaria (fol. 56 a) which quotes a passage to the same 
effect from Angiras, regarding the sacred and ordinary fire, adds : " the 
sense of this passage is : a man who maintains a sacred fire should cook 
his food and make the oblation, in this (sacred) domestic fire ; one who 
does not maintain such a fire, in the ordinary fire." 

t See p. 35, 11. 31 ff. 

J The words " an oblation of food cooked in the house, &c." (p. 37, U. 
10 ff.) till ^^ performed separately or not," are the complete passage, repre- 
sented in the Bombay Digest by the words " rice mixed " till " performed 
separately (in each household) or not " (see above, p. 35, 1. 21-1. 27). The 
correctness of the last words " performed separately or not " might at 
first sight seem doubtful, since their value in Sanskrit is the compound 
IcritdkHta, and this word (according to Pan., II., 1, 60, not a Dvandva, 
but a Karmadhdraya) would literally mean ' done — not done,' i. e. * im- 
perfectly done,' or *done as if not done,' i.e. * done in vain.' That in the 

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similar dajs (of abetiiience), the Yai^vadeTa should be performed with 
grain (esp. of rice), milk, curds, ghee, fmits, water, and the like sub- 
stances. Let a man perform it with rice and so on, (throwing such 
substances) with his hand, — or with water, (throwing the latter) with his 
hollowed palms, into water ; but let him at the performance of the Yai- 
i^adeya avoid hodrava (paspalum kora), chick-pea, the kidney-bean (pha- 
seolus radiatus), masHra (ervum hirsutum), hukitiha (dolichos biflorus), 
and all factitious salt cdled kahdra and lava^. When a man lives 
abroad, the Yaii^yadeya should be performed at his house by the instru- 
mentality of his son, priest, or other (proper substitute) ; and should 
there not be at his house such other (proper) agent he himself must per- 
form it abroad. Those who conform to the ritual of the Big- and Black- 
Tajur-yedas should perform it twice (a-day), according to the text which 
says : ' it should be performed by day and by night.' But if unable to 
do so, they may, at the same time, repeat it or perform (the day- and night 
Yai^yadeva) tc^ether.* The usual practice of followers of these two Yedas 
is to cook their food and perform the Yailvadeva, in the ordinary fire."'|' 

In the chapter treating of the religious duties of sons whose father ia 
alive, the same work contains the following statement :| 

" Sons not separated from their father should not perform the Yai6va- 
deya separately ; for it is stated that < one who lives upon the cooking of 
(f . e, the food cooked by) his brother, is (like) one who lives upon the 
cooking of {i,e, the food cooked by) his feither.' Hence, if the father 
maintains a sacred fire, even when the cooking and the YaiiSvadeva are 
effected with the sacred fire, his unseparated sons, although they, too, 
maintain a sacred fire, should not perform the Yai^vadeva separately. 
Those who think that, in the absence of cooking, a fire becomes an 
ordinary one, may cook merely in order to consecrate their fire. But 
by members of a divided family the Yailvadeva should be performed 

quotation from Bhat'tlbji, however, the word has not this sense, but the one 
given it in the trandation of the Bombay Digest, and in that above, 
follows not only from the sense in which the word TcHtakHta is unmistak- 
ably used in otiier passages of the Dharmaaindhusdra and Nir'Aayasindhu 
(since its meaning there becomes clear from the interpretations follow- 
ing it), but also from the injunction of JSvcddyana, which is analogous 
to that of Bhaftoji (see p. 41, 11. 21 ff.). 

♦ See note * of page 37. ' 

f There follows a description of the manner in which the Y. is per- 
formed by members of the YaishiSava and other sects, of the rules relating 
to the Naivedya ceremony, and other detail which it is not requisite 
here to enter into. 

J Bombay ed. (1861), III. B., fol. 3 a, 11. 8 ff. 

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Boparately (by each of them). And since (aocording to the followers of 
the EigyedA-ritual*) the Yaii^YadeYa consists of the three daily sacra- 
ments, viz. those of the gods, created beings and manes, those (who 
entertain this doctrine regarding the Yaiiiyadeya), even if their father is 
alive, will perform the (daily) sacrament of the manes, forming part of 
the five great (daily) sacraments. To the followers of the Black- 
Yajnrveda, however, the five great (daily) sacraments are distinct from 
the Yaii^vadeva; they (consequently) perform the (daily) sacrament of 
the manes, if their father is alive, (only) when they are members of a 
divided family," 

In the chapter treating of those entitled to perform the &raMha^ the 
same work says :^ 

" The son of one's own body has the preferential duty (and right) to 
perform the annual and other Sr&ddhas and the funeral ceremonies which 
take place immediately after death. K there are several such sons, the 
ddeet has this duty (and right) ; on failure of him, or if he is not present, 
or if his right has lapsed through having become an outcast or similar 
(disqualifications), the eldest afber him. The statement, however, (made 
elsewhere) that in 'the absence of the eldest the youngest has always this 
right, not the sons between them, is without authority. Hence, if sons live 
in a state of division, the ddeat^ after having received from ifhe younger 
(brothers) the (necessary) property, should perform all the funeral rites 
up to that called Sapiiidfiuaa.;^ But the annual and other ^raddhas each 
of them must perform separately. If, however, sons live in a state of 
union, even the annual and other Hraddhas must be performed by one of 
them only. (Still) since what is done by one (member of a united 
family) accrues to the benefit of the rest, all the sons should keep such 
rules as the observance of chastity, the not touching another person's 
food,§ and similar ones. If sons do not live in the same place, whether 
they stay in different countries or in different houses, each of them 
should perform the annual and other Sraddhas separately, even if they 
are members of an undivided family." || 

♦ See p. 37, 11. 7 ff. 

t in. B., fol. 4 a, U. 10 ff 

t That is, inclusive of the first sixteen SrMdhas which end with the 
SaptMana, also called SapiMikara'ha. 

§ YdjnavdUeya^ III., 241, classes 'feeding on others' amongst the 
crimes, called upapdtaka, which are only a degree less than the rnoMpd- 
taJca, or most heinous offences. Manu, III., 104, foretells parasites that, 
after death, they will become the cattle of Iheir hosts. 

II The rest of this chapter regulates the rights of younger sons in the 

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In the important chapter on the 6r4ddha itself, under the head of 
" sealed rules reding to members of a divided and an undivided family,^' 
the same work, after a general reference to preyions statements, has the 
following : ♦ 

" Of brothers and other members of a funilj, divided in property, all 
the (religions) duties are separate. Bnt that the faneral ceremonies and 
the sixteen SrSddhas up to the Sapiiidana (which are performed during 
the first year after a death) should be performed by one of them only, 
has been already stated.^ Yet if members of a family are undivided, all 
such acts as may be done without (spending any) property, e. g, bathing, 
the Sandhya-devotion, the sacrament (i.e, reading) of the Yedas, mut- 
tering of prayers, fasting, reading the Pur^iias, are done (by each of 
them) separately; whether such acts recur at regular periods, or are 
occasional, or (purely) voluntary ; separately, also, such ceremonies of 
regular recurrence, enjoined by vedic or traditional works, as are performed 
with fire. Another view founded on the teaching of E&tyd.yana and 
others is, that 'one who lives on the cookjpg of a brother is (like) one 
who lives on that of a fether.' Of the ^vq great (daily) sacraments those 
of the gods, created beings, manes, and uenj should be performed by 
the eldest (brother) only. If the cooking is done separately (by members 
of a united family) those who conform to the rules of Ai^vaMyana, say 
that the separate performance of the Yaii^adeva (by each member of 
such a family) is optional.§ Since, if the eldest (brother) does not per- 
form the VaijSvadeva, it is (the duty) of a younger (brother) to perfect 
the cooking (of the food by means of this ceremony), some enjoin that 
before eating, some of the food should be thrown by him into the fire, and 
some given to a Brahman. The worship of the (tutelary) gods may be 
performed (by each of them) separately, or (by all of them) conjointly. 
The annual ^raddhas, those performed on the day of new-moon, at 
the sun's entrance into a new sign, eclipses, and similar SrSddhas should 
be performed by the eldest only. The ^addhas, also, performed in holy 
places (e.g, of the Ganges) and those of the same category should be 
performed by one member only of an undivided family, if all the 
members happen to be together (in the place), but separately, (by each 
member) if they happen to be in different places. The same rule applies 

absence of the eldest, and in their absence those of other members of 
a family successively to perform the draddhas. Its importance regarding 
the rights of inheritance, requires no remark; but as these rights do not 
concern the present paper, no further extract on this point is here given. 

* ni. B., fol. 37 6, IL 6 ff. t See p. 40, 11. 20 ff. 

J See p. 37, 11. 4 E § Compare p. 38, 11. 20 ft. 

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to the ^raddha, which is performed at (the holy city of) Gay& (in 
Behar). As regards sacrificial ceremonies, at which volmitary gifts are 
made, and which can be effected only by means of (spending some of the 
family) property, the right of performing them depends on the assent of 
the brothers and other (members of the united family). The ^r^dha 
on the 13th day of the dark fortnight of the month Bhadra, which is mider 
the asterism Magh4, it is stated, should be performed separately by each 
member (of an nndivided family)," * 

The work from which these passages are taken, is a compilation from 
other works, among which it prominently names the Niriayaaindhuy com- 

* Oompare for the ^r&ddhas to be performed at holy places and the 
13th of the dark fortnight of the month BhSdra, also the following 
passages from Wilson's translation of the VisMvrPwMa (III., 14, vv. 
17-19) : " He who, after having offered food and libations to the Pitfis, 
[manes] bathes in the Ganges, Satlaj, Yipd^ (Beas), Sarasyati, or the 
Gomati at Naimisha, expiates all his sins. The Pitfis also say: 'after 
having received satisfaction for a twelvemonth, we shall farther derive 
gratification by libations offered, by our descendants, at some place of 
pilgrimage, at the end of the dark fortnight of Magha ' "; and (ibid., IQ., 
16, w. 17 ff) : "In former times, O king of the earth, this song of tho 
Pitfis was heard by Ikshw4ku, the son of Manu, in the groves of Kalapa : 
' Those of our descendants shall follow a righteous path, who shall reve- 
rently present us with cakes at Gaya. May he be bom in our race who 
shall give us, on the thirteenth of Bhadrapada and Magha, milk, honey, 
and clarified butter." (Wilson's Works, vol. viii., pp. 170 and 197.) As 
pointed out by the editor, the phrase " for a twelvemonth " is in the Sans- 
krit text represented by varaMmaghd; and the phrase "on the thirteenth 

of Bhadrapada and Msi^ha" by trayodoHm varahdgu cha maghdsu 

' cha. But the former being rendered by Snratnagarbha : aparapahaha-- 
maghdtrayodaSty and the latter: varshdsUy hhddrapade, maghdnakahaire 
trayodaMm, it would be better to substitute for them : " on the 13th day 
of the dark fortnight of the month BhSdra, which is under the asterism 
Magh4." — The sanctity of this day and its appropriateness for the 
performance of the Sr4ddha already result from Manu, HI., 273 

and 274, where the same expression — trayodaSim varshdsu cha 

maghdsu cha ' occurs, and is interpreted by Kulluka to v. 273 : varshakale 
maghdtrayodaSydm, and to v. 274 : hhadraJcHsh^atrayodaSi ; also from 
Ydjnavdlkya, I., v, 260 : where the words varshdtrayodaSydm maghdsu are 
explained in the same manner by Yijnanei^vara : hhddrapadaJcHshAatraffO' 
daSydm maghdyuJUdydm.^ Compare also Sir W. Jones, on the lunar year 
of the Hindus, As. Ees., voL iii., p. 292. Besides these verses, other quo- 
tations relating to the same subject, from ^anhha^ l^dtdUipa, and others, 
occur in Jimut., IH., 1, 18, in Eaghunandana's Tithitattva (Calc. ed. 1834, 
vol.i., pp. 76, 160), in the Niniayasindhu (II.,fol. 42 a, 6), Dharmas, (11., 
fol. 31 b), &c., which also show that each member of a family, whether 
divided or undivided, must for himself perform this particular ^raddha. 

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posed by KamalcUcara, in the year 1611, P. C* As the latter is held in 
especial esteem by the Mahrattas for whose benefit, it seems, the Bombay 
Digest was chiefly intended, I will add a translation of its chapter: 
'^ On the setded rules relating to members of a diffided and undivided family^* 
which likewise forms part of its section on the ^rdddha.^ It rans 

" The PHthffichandrodaya quotes these words of Marichi : * If there 
are many sons of a father who liye together, all that is done with the un- 
divided (family-) property, by the eldest, the rest consenting, must be 
(considered as) done by all of them.' These words mean that, though the 
eldest is the agent, all of them share in the result (of his acts). There- 
fore such religious rules, as the observance of chastity, &c., must be kept 
by every one of them, since they consecrate the persons who obtain the 
result. -And this applies also to re-united members of a family, on 
account of the analogy (that exists between them and members of a united 

"The Mitdkshard quotes these words of Ndrada: 'The religious 
duty of unseparated brethren is single ; when partition has been made, 
even the religious duties become sepai-ate for each of them.' § VHhaypati 
also says : ' Of members of a family who live (together and) cook (their 
food) in common, the sacraments of the manes, gods and twice-born should 
be single ; of those who are divided, they should be performed in each house 
separately.' |{ Though in this last text, no exception being mentioned, the 
prohibition of a separate performance (of religious acts) in an undivided 
family would also (seem to) obtain for such acts as the reading of the 
Yedas, the Sandhyd. devotion and the like, it (nevertheless) merely relates 
to the performance of the ^raddha, YaiSvadeva and other ceremonies 

♦ This date is given by the author himself at the end of his work, in 
the words: vasu( = 8) fitu ( = 6) fitu ( = 6)bhu (1) t.e.l668 of the era of 

t Ed. Bombay (1857), IH. B., fol. 65 a, 11. 4 ff. 

J This passage also occurs in the same chapter, fol. 8 5, 11. 11 ff. 

§ Mit., ch, ii., sec. xii., § 3. — ^The same quotation also occurs in the 
Viramitrodaya, Oalc. ed., p. 169 h, 223 a; the VivddachintdmaM (ed. Gale. 
1837), p. 162 (Colebrooke's translation of this passage in the Mit., and 
that of Tagore p. 311 in the Viv. materially differ from one another) ; in 
the SmHtichandrikd (Calc. 1870) p. 8, Vyavahdramayvhha, ch. iv., sec. vii., 
§ 28 (Borradaile's translation being the same as Colebrooke's), and in 
other Digests. 

II This quotation also occurs in the Vivddach., p. 125 (Tagore, p. 227); 
Viramitrodaya, f. 172 a, 222 b ; KuLluka to Manu, IX., Ill ; Ddyahaumudi 
(Calc. 1827), p. 28; SmHtichandrikd, p. 8; &c. 

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whicli can be effected only by (spending some of the fiimilj) property ; 
for such property haying more than one o^mer, one (member of the family 
alone) would not be entitled to spend it. All such acts, however, as may 
be done without (spending any) property, e, g, muttering prayers, fasting, 
the Sandhy4 devotion, reading the Yedas and Puraiias, whether such acts 
recur at regular periods, or are occasional, or (purely) voluntary, each 
member is competent to perform separately (for himself). For there 
being no expenditure of property, no consent (of the rest) is required ; 
and consequently the words (before quoted) 'with the undivided (family-) 
property' cannot apply to such acts. And this conclusion also results 
from the following text of JSwUdyana as quoted in the Prayogapdrijdta : 
^ Amongst twice-born men who cook (their food) in common there should 
always be separate the sacrament (or reading) of the Yedas, the Agnihotra, 
the worship of the gods, and the SandhyS. devotion.' (In this passage) 
Agnihotra signifies such ceremonies of regular recurrence, enjoined by 
vedic or traditional works, as are performed with fire. For (the right 
of each member of a family to fulfil) these duties (separately) is logic- 
ally analogous to the right acquired by the consent of the rest. The 
^rMdha of the father, and other acts of regular recurrence which have 
the same consequence (for all the members of a family) a single 
(member) is entitled to perform even without the consent of the rest ; 
for it is said:* * Even a single (member) of a family may conclude a 
donation, mortgage, or sale, of immovable property, during a season of 
distress, for the sake of the family, and especially for pious purposes.' 
'For pious purposes,' means, according to Vijnane6vara,t for the per- 
formance of indispensable duties, vi2. the ^raddha of the father, or the 

" But some maintain that even of members of an undivided family, if 
they cook (their food) separately, and if they stay in different countries, 
each has to perform separately (for himself) the ^raddhas on the day of 
new-moon and the annual orMdhas ; for Hdrtta has said : * If undivided 
brethren cook their food separately, each of them should also perform 
separately the Vai6vadeva and the other 6raddhas '; and Tama : * If a son 
who is not separated (from the family) stays in a foreign country, he 
should perform (for himseK) separately the ^rMdha of the fether on the 
anniversary of his death, and the Sr^dha on the day of new-moon.' 

* By VHhaspati, according to the Eatnakara (as quoted by Colebrooke) 
on the Mit., ch. i., sec. i., § 28. Oomp. also the Vtram., f. 181 a : Vivddach,, 
p. 161. 

t Mit., ch. i., sec. i., § 29. 

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" If (the dcn& of) these texts is properly considered, their sense (will 
be foond to be) this : Of the five great (daily) sacraments, the eldest 
should with the consent of the other (members) of the family perform the 
sacraments of the gods, created beings, manes and men ; for also Vydsa 
has said: 'Food should never be eaten without previously making a 
sacrificial ofifenng, and presenting a first (portion) of it (to a Br&hman) ; 
amongst members of an undivided or re-united family what is done even 
by a single (member) w done (by all).' But if one's food has been pre- 
pared without the eldest (member) having performed the Vaiiivadeva, he 
may eat it after having silently thrown some of it into the fire. For, 
where treating of the rights of members of an undivided family the 
FHthvichmdrodaya quotes this passage from OchhUa : * Whose food in 
the family is first ready, he may eat it after having put a certain portion 
of it into the fire, and given a first (portion) of it to a Brahman.' Again, 
JSvcddyana mentions the ceremonies which (members of a divided family) 
should perform separately when they cook their food separately ; and also 
separately when they cook it in common ; (his words are) : * ' Of members 
even of a divided fiumly, if they live (together and) cook (their food) in 
common, one, the master (of the household), should perform the four 
(daily) sacraments which (in the order of the five f) are preceded by the 
sacrament of speech. But men of the twice-born classes, whether mem- 
bers of an undivided or a divided family, if they cook (their food) 
separately, should, previous to taking it, each separately perform these 
sacraments day by day.' The sacrament of the Veda, the Sandhya 
devotion, bathing, the sacrament of the manes, and the like ceremonies 
are for the reason stated, performed separately (by each member) ; but on 
account of the two texts quoted, the worship of the gods either in common 
(by one) or separately (by each member) ; the 6raddh'as on the day of 
new moon, at eclipses, &c., by one member only ; the ^raddha at holy 
places, and similar Sraddhas by one only, if all the members of the 
undivided family happen to be together (in the place), but separately (by 
each member), if they happen to be in different places. And so likewise 
the 6raddha which is performed at Gay&. For Hemddri quotes this 
passage from the KurmorPurd'fia : ' Many well conducted and excellent 
sons must be wished for ; (for) if one of their number goes to Gay4, 
we are saved by him, and he enters upon the highest path.' J 

* Compare the same passage in the subsequent extract from the 
Vyavaharamayukha ; p. 47, 11. 33 ffl 
t See p. 37, 11. 4 ff. 
J The first portion of this quotation (*many' till ^Gaya') occurs 

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^^ As regards yoluntaiy acts, such as sacrificial offerings connected 
with the making of gifts, and the like, the right of performing them 
depends on the assent of the other (members of the family) ; that of 
muttering prayers and performing similar acts which entail no expen- 
diture of property exists without (such) assent. Apardrha quotes 
these words of Paifhinasi : ' The annual and similar ^raddhas should 
be performed separately by each member of a divided £Eunily; but 
if performed by one member of an imdivided family, it is as good as 
if they were performed by all of them.' That the monthly Sraddhas, 
which precede the annual ^rgddha, must be performed conjointly (by 
the whole family), Laghu-HarUa has declared in these words : ' The 
sixteen ^raddhas which end with the Sapiiidana, sons should not per- 
form (each of them) separately ; nor ever, even when divided in property.' 
The Sapiiidana here implies a monthly ^rd,ddha ; for this results from 
the words of Vydm : < After the year (following the death of the father) 
the eldest (son) should perform the Sraddha before the assembled family ; 
but after the Sapiiidana (has been accomplished) each son should perform 
it separately.' And USanaa says : ' The ' new ' &rdddha* the Sapiiidana, 
and the sixteen SrSddhas should be performed by one member of the 
family only, even if the latter is divided in property ; but the HrS^ddha 
on the 13th day of the dark fortnight of Bhadra, which is under the 
asterism Magha f should be performed separately by each member even 
of an undivided family'; as has been already mentioned, j; But when 
VHddha-VasiaMha says, ' the monthly Braddha, the ceremony of setting 
a bull free, and the Sapiiidana should be performed by the eldest, as 
well as the first annual Sriddha ', — his injunction is without authority. 
In the Paridisht'ha of the Bigveda ritual (it is said that members of a 
family) should perform the * new ' SIrMdha conjointly." 

With these.extracts from the Dharmasindhusdra and its predecessor, 
the Niniayasindhu, it will now be expedient to compare the law on this 
matter as laid down by the principal authority of the Mahrattas, the 
VyawMramayiihha, It is contained in the following passage. § 

with some variation in the Eamayada (ed. Bombay, 1861), II., 107, v. 13 ; 
and is quoted also by several treatises on adoption, the Dattakakaumudi, 
Dattakasiddhantamanjari, &c. 

* The * new ' BrSddha (nava6raddha) is the collective name of the 
ceremonies which begin on the first day after a death, and end on the 
tenth (comp. Dharmas., IH. B., fol. 7 6, 1. 9). 

f MaghdtrayodaSi ; see note * of page 42. 

i Viz. III. B., f. 8 5, and f. 9 a, where the same quotations from 
LaghurHartta and USanas occur. 

§ Ch. iv., sec. vii., § 28-§ 33. Consistently with the opinion ex- 

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^ Ndrada says : * < The religioas duty of nnseparated brethren is 
fiingle ; when partition has been made, even the religious duties become 
separate for each of them.' Here the term ' unseparated ' is intended to 
denote the chief topic (treated of), whilst ' brethren,' on account of its 
(merely) qualifying the former, is not to be taken in its literal sense. 
Therefore in an unseparated family, even if it consists of a father, grand- 
&ther, son, son's son, paternal uncle, brother, brother's son or other 
(relatiyes), their religious duty is single. 

'^ Here again, though conjointness of an act, in regard to its various 
stages, follows as a logical consequence if there is sameness of place, 
time, agency, and so on, an express text would cause such conjointness to 
cease, if the agency is not the same, though (it is) that of members of 
an undiYided family. Hence all those religious duties, enjoined by vedic 
and traditional works, which are fulfilled by means of fire, even of 
unseparated (brethren) are separate for each (of them), since they are 
different according as different kinds of fire would be connected (with the 
ceremony). Even so the ^r&ddha of a paternal undo, brother's son, &c., 
at the day of new moon and other (seasons) is separate by reason of the 
separation of the deified person (from the pdrvai&a rite) ; but the ^r&ddha 
of brothers (dying) without (maintenance of) a sacred fire is performed 
by one and the same act, because all the deified persons are conjoint. 
Again, by residence abroad and the like (causes), there being a difference 
in the places (where members of a family live, the Braddhas are to be 
performed) separately (by each member) ; the ceremonies also performed 
with fire are separate for those who maintain a sacred fire. But the 
worship of the household deities, the Yaiiivadeya and similar ceremonies 
are performed (conjointly) by one and the same act. Hence Sdkdla says : 
* Of those who live (together and) cook (their food) in common, there is 
but one worshipping of the deity in the house, and but one Yai^yadeva ; 
in a family of divided brethren these acts are performed in each house 

'^ As for the text, however, of Advaletyana, as quoted in the Pdrijata, 
which says : * Of members even of a divided family, if they live 
(together and) cook (their food) in common, one, the master (of the 
household), should perform the four (daily) sacraments, which (in the 

pressed at p. 81, in the translation that follows, as much as possible has 
been retained of Borradaile's version ; several portions of the latter, 
however, had necessarily to be altered, as not correctly rendering the 
sense of the original 
* See p. 43, 11. 17 fL 

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order of the five) are preceded by the Bacrament of speech ; but men of 
the twice-born classes whether members of an imdivided or a divided 
family, if they cook (their food) separately, should, previous to taking it, 
each separately perform these sacraments day by day' ;* — this text has 
reference to members of a re-united family ; for that such is its import, 
follows from the words * of members even of a divided family, if they live 
(together and) cook (their food) in common,' and from the words 'whether 
members of an undivided or a divided family.' 

'* Therefore if there be a separate cooking of food, as is sometimes the 
case, amongst members of a re-united family, their great (daily) sacra- 
ments are separate. ' Sacrament of speech ' is ' the sacrament {i. e. the 
reading) of the Veda.' The phrase Hhose (sacraments) which are pre- 
ceded by the sacrament of speech ' is represented (in Sanskrit) by (one 
word which is) a Bahuvrihi (or possessive) compound of the class where 
the quality expressed by it (as the predicate of something else) is not 
intended for the {i.e, the essential) quality (of the latter); for were 
this compound meant to convey such an (essential) quality, the words 
' preceded by the sacrament of speech ' would yield no sense, since there 
would then be no cause for excluding the first (sacrament) ; whereas it 
logically follows that the four (sacraments only) are here meant.^ 

* See p. 45, D. 17 ff. 

f The grammatical observation in this passage, relating to Bahuvrihi 
compounds, is an allusion to a paribhdsJid or interpretation-rule which 
occurs in PatanjalCs Mahahhdshya on PdMni, I., 1, 27 (viz. the par. 
hahuvrihau tadguiasaThvijndnam apt ; on which N&gojibhat'tia in the 
Paribhdshendusekhara observes that, on account of the word apt, it also 
implies atadgu^asaihvijndnam). The drift of this paribhaaM, as Patanjali 
explains it, is to show that Bahuvrihi compounds (in English comparable 
to adjective compounds like lightfoot — i, e. one who possesses light feet, — 
or blueeye-d, &c.^ are of two kinds, the one expressing a^ quality or an 
attribute which is essential, and the other expressing a quality or an 
attribute which is not essential, to the subject so predicated by the com- 
pound. Thus, as Patanjali illustrates, if you say : ' there march the priests 
having red turbans on,' the Bahuvrihi lohitoshiiishdH ' having red turbans 
on * implies here an essential quality of the priests, since this quality 
cannot be disconnected from their appearance as they march. But if you 
say: * bring hither the man who possesses brindled cows {chitragu)* 
you want the man to be brought, but not his cows ; hence the quality of 
' possessing brindled cows ' would in this case be disconnected from the 
appearance of the man, and therefore would not be essential to it. In 
the first instance the quality expressed by the compound was the charac- 
teristic feature, in the second it is merely the descriptive mark, of tho 
subject predicated by it ; and this, as Ndgoji in his commentary observes, 
depends on the sense. The application, then, regarding the compound 

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Hence the sacrament of the Veda should be performed separately (by 
each member of the family). But (after all) these two texts are not 
much respected by the learned. 

" As regards, however, the following sentences in the DharmapravHUi : 

' Sons unseparated mast (conjointly) celebrate one anniyersary ^rSddha 
for both parents ; if they be in different countries they must (each of 
them) separately perform the Braddha on the day of new moon and the 
montiily 6raddhas. If they go to (reside in) different villages, unsepa- 
rated brethren should always (each of them) separately perform the 
Hraddha on the day oi new moon and the monthly ^raddhas of both 
parents. When unseparated, but residing in different villages, each 
living upon the wealth acquired by himself, these brothers should cele- 
brate the Parvaiia-Sraddha separately ; ' 

" And as regards the following passage in the SmHtisamuchchaya : 

* The Vai6vadeva, the anniversary 6raddha, as well as the Mahalaya 
rite, in case the members of a family reside in different countries, are to 
be celebrated separately (by each of them), and in like manner the 6raddha 
on the day of new moon,* — 

" These (two) texts, some say, have reference to members of a re-united 
family residing in different countries. But the fact is that they have no 

" Or, to sum up : if there be sameness of place, time, agency and so on, 
conjointness (in the performance of the act) follows as a matter of logical 
reasoning. If the agency is not the same, such conjointness (only exists 
if it) is established by an express text. If tbe place is not the same, some 
base (the rule concerning) the separate performance of Sr§ddhas and 
other ceremonies on circumstantial reasoning, since in such a case there 
is neither a logical necessity nor an express text (which would establish 

Even from these few extracts it will be seen that commensality or 
the reverse of it has not been regarded as a proof of either union or 
division of a family; for without any restriction whatever, as we find, 

vdgyajhajpurvaha, 'preceded by the sacrament of speech,' which our 
text makes of this paribhasha is : that if this predicate of the ' four 
sacraments ' spoken of had been considered by the writer as essential to 
them, the four sacraments would have been represented by him as ac- 
companied and headed by * the sacrament of speech ' — which would be 
nonsense. If, however, this predicate was understood by him as being 
merely a descriptive one, the sense would be, as it should be, that the 
four sacraments are those which in their usual order come after the 
sacrament of speech, but are not accompanied by it. 

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members of a united family are spoken of as residing and ' cooking' apart 
from one another, and members of a divided family as Hying and messing 

And I may add at once that I know of no Hindu law-4iathority which 
distinctly dechires that ' living or dining apart' is a legal test of partition, 
itfantt, Vydsay and other lawgivers, it is true, sometimes say that sons and 
parents should ' live together,' but in the first place, the words they use to 
this effect, do not imply an obligation ; they merely convey a recommen- 
dation or permission; and secondly, their expression 'living together' 
does not intimate a particular mode of life which would be a test of imion, 
but is used synonymously with < union' in general. 

Hence, when Manu says :* " Either let them thus live together, or let 
them live apart (KuUMa : i, e. let them separate), if they have a desire 
of performing religious duties, &c." — his words merely express the law- 
fulness of both union and separation, but not a criterion of either. Or, 
when Vydsa writes, " It is lawful that brothers and their parents, if the 
latter are alive, should live together," the SmHtichandrikd^ after quoting 
these words, adds : " even after the demise of the father brothers live 
together for the sake of increasing mutually their property ; for SarMa 
and lAkhita have said ^ Let them willingly live together, for being in 
harmony and united they will become prosperous.' "f Here again, there- 
fore, ' living together' does not imply a particular mode of domestic life, 
without which union could not exist, but simply a state of union in 
general as contrasted with a state of separation in generaL And con- 
sequently, passages of this kind are not alleged by the Digests under the 
head of '^ evidence of partition^" but in the chapter treating of the periods 
of partition; — a distinction, which, from a Hindu point of view, is very 

There is indeed one text which might seem to imply that " cooking 
apart " (not living apart) was considered by a native authority as a sign 
c^ partition, viz. a passage in Ndrada's Dhamia^stra,| for it occurs there 
und^ the head of " ascertainment of a contested partition," and being 
quoted in Jimiitavcthana's DayabhSga under the same head, has been 
translated by Colebrooke thus : 

'' Gift and acceptance of gift, cattle, grain, house, land and attendants 

• IX., Ill ; in the Vyavahara-Madhaviya quoted as a verse of Prajd- 
pati. Compare also JimStav. Ddyabh., L, § 37. 

t Ed. Calc, p. 8. 

I J. O. MS. No. 1300, fol. 38, h : danagrahaiiapaSvannagrihakshetra- 
parigrahaK, vibhaktdn^ii^L pf ithag jneydH p^kadharmagamavyay^H. 

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must be considered as distinct among separated brethren, as also diet^ 
religioii^ duties, income and expenditure."* 

But in consulting the explanation given by the best commentators of 
this passage, and in comparing it with the sense put upon it in other 
Digests, it will be found that instead of " as also diet, religious duties, 
income and expenditure," the translation should most probably run : " as 
also the religious duties connected with the cooking (of food), income and ex- 
penditure " — when the very omission of * cooking apart * in this passage 
would strongly confirm the opinion just expressed.']' 

* XIV., § 7. — The italics of diet are mine. — In Oolebrooke's Digest 
of Hindu Law, vol. iii., p. 407 and p. 417, this passage is translated 
thus : " When co-heirs have made a partition (distribution) the acts of 
giving and receiving cattle, grain, houses, land, household establish- 
ments, dressing victuals, religious duties, income and expenses are to be 
considered as separate, and (conversely^ as proofs of a partition;" 
whereupon Jagannatha observes (p. 407) : " * dressing victuals ' [here 
means] for the service of guests and the like, and for the food of the 
family ; ^ religious duties ' ; the aggregate of constant and occasional 
acts of religion." It will be seen however from the next note that his 
interpretation of pdkadharma is not borne out by the principal com- 
mentators of Jim. Dayabh. and the other Digests. 

f On the first part of the compound pdkcidharmdgamavyaydH, Achyu- 
tananda, in Bharatachandra6iromani's edition of Jimutav. Dayabh. (p. 357) 
comments : pdkddharmd vaihadevadharmddaydh, when pakadharma, there- 
fore, would not be a Dvandva, but a Tatpurusha compoimd; and simi- 
larly ^rihHshiMt. : (as also in the previous Calc. editions) pdkadharmo 
vaihadevddikarma, i. e. " religious duties connected with cooking, that is, 
the Yaidvadeva duties (or ceremonies), and similar ones " ; Bdmabhadra 
in the edition named merely comments on dharma (not on pdkadliarma), 
viz. dharmo daivapitrddikarma ; but as daiva is frequently used synony- 
mously with vaiSvadevay the meaning of his words would be : " the Vai- 
6vadeva, the sacrament of the manes, and similar ceremonies " ; when it 
becomes probable that the proper reading should be pdkadharmo daiva^j 
or that dharma is abbreviated by the commentator for pdkadharma; 
in the Vtramilrodaya also (p. 223 a, 1. 12) where the same passage of 
Narada is quoted, MitramtSra explains (1. 14) dharmo vaiSvadevadiK, 
ekapdkena vasatdm iti prdguktavachandt, i. e. " religious duty means the 
Vai6vadeva and so on, on account of the previous quotation (from 
N&rada) which says : ' of those who live (together and) cook (in common) 
(the worship of the manes, gods and twice-born should be single, &c.) * "; 
where dharma is therefore used in the sense of pdkadharma, and the 
* sign ' in question is not the * cooking,' but the religious rites connected 
with the cooking. — Agaia in the Vivddachintdma'Ai, where the same 
passage occurs (p. 162) Vdcha^patimiira likewise takes pakadharma for a 
Tatpurusha; viz. pdkadharmaH pdrvaMdih, "the religious duties con- 
nected with cooking, i.e. the ParvaiSa and other ceremonies." In the 

No 1, Vol. V. B 

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It is to be presumed that on the strength of this passage, — as trans- 
lated by Colebrooke, — Strange, Macnaghten, and other modern authors, 
even though rejecting non-commensality as a * sign' of separation, allowed 
it a place amongst the different kinds of * evidence of partition;'* but 
with the aid of the printed texts and commentaries we now possess, there 
can be no doubt that we should not be justified in stating for certain, as 
the Bombay Digest does, that according to Hindu authors, living and dining 
apart is a sign of separation.f 

But though the extracts already adduced merely confirm the negative 
inference derivable from the ancient law authorities, that commensality, 
taken by itself, affords no legal evidence regarding the state of a family, 
they show us that a different view must be entertained of the value which 
some ceremonies at least possess for testing doubtful cases of this kind. 

Some religious acts, as we see, must, according to all authorities, 
be performed separately by each member of a family, and others in 

Bdydkaumudi, too, ^p. 278) ^riJcHsMat.'s commentary on this passage, as 
already mentioned, is quoted and adopted by Eamajayatarkala^ara. On 
the other hand in the VyavaMramddhaviya and Vyavahdrarnayukha (TV., 7, 
§ 34), instead of pdkadharmdgama^y the text reads ddnadharmdgama^y 
when Ntlakanffha explains ddnadharmo lekhyddiJi, " the duties connected 
with gifts, i. e. written deeds, and the like." — The word grain which occurs 
in Colebrooke's translation represents the Sanskrit anna; and lest any 
inference be drawn from it regarding < diet,' or lest it be doubted that 
this is the proper sense of the word as here used, I may mention that 
the Bdyakaumudi, on the authority of the Vivddahhangdr'hava, says : 
" anna here means ' the getting of grain,' " and adds : " but some say anrui 
here means ' buying com, grain, &c., for the sake of food (anndrthamy " 
But even for anna, the YivMach. has the v. 1. artha and eiq)lain6 it with 
arthotpddana ' producing wealth.' — Whatever view therefore we may take 
of this passage it is clear that the balance of probability is in favour of 
SnkfishiiatarkalamkSTa's, Achyutananda's, and Yachaspatimii^'s gloss, 
and that Ndrada, if he really wrote pdkadharma^ and not ddnadharmo, did 
not make * cooking,' but the religious duties connected with it, 'a sign of 

* Macnaghten, for instance, in his * Principles of Hindu Law ' (Ma- 
dras, 1865), p. 53, says : " It (viz, partition) cannot always be inferred 
from the manner in which the brelliren live, as they may reside appa- 
rently in a state of union, and yet, in matters of property, each may be 
separate ; while, on the other hand, they may reside apart, and yet may 
be in a state of union with respect to property : though it undoubtedly 
is one among the presumptive proofs to wluch recourse may be had, 
in a case of uncertainty, to determine whether a family be united or 
separate in regard to acquisitions and property." — Similarly, * Strange, 
Hindu Law,' vol. i., p. 229. 

t See p. 33, U. 5, 6. 

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common, whether the members of such a family live in a state of imion 
or separation. Thus, the reading of the Vedas, muttering prayers, and in 
general all religious acts which entail no expenditure, must be performed 
separately by each member even of a united family ; on the other hand, 
the sixteen SrMdhas which occur during the first year after a father's 
death, must be performed in common, — that is, as a rule, by the eldest 
son on behalf of the whole family — even if the latter is a divided one. 
Hence the performance of acts or ceremonies like these is no criterion 
either way, whether of union or separation. Yet we find that if members 
of a united family * cook' their food in common, they are bound to 
perform, conjointly, the four daily sacraments of the gods, manes, created 
beings and men, the anniversary Sraddha, the Srdddha on the day 
of new moon, and the 6raddhas of this category, the Tirtha-, Gaya-, 
and 6rflddhas of this nature, whilst, if messing apart or if separated, 
they would be bound to perform these rites separately, each for himself. 
The Vaihadeva also, members of a separated family must, and members 
of a united family, if not messing together, may, perform separately ; but 
members of a united family, if messing together, must perform it con- 
jointly. Hence, if it can be shown that relatives mess togethery and yet 
perform all or any of these ceremonies separately, each for himself, it is 
clear that, on the ground of all authoritative texts, a case of division is 
made out 

Again, it is expressly enjoined that a voluntary religious ceremony 
entailing expenditure can be performed by a single member of a united 
family only on the condition that the rest of the family allow him to do 
so; and to this clause no restriction is attached regarding commensa- 
lity or living apart. Hence if it can be shown that a person performed 
such a ceremony without any protest on the part of his relatives, yet 
without having obtained their consent, such evidence would prove that 
he was divided from them ; or, conversely, if it can be shown that ho 
asked and obtained the consent of his family to perform such a ceremony, 
proof is afforded that at that time he was a member of a united family.* 

Some statements, therefore, of Sir T. Strange, on this subject are 
liable to objection. For, though he was right in dividing the religious 

* How great the amount of evidence available on this purely reli- 
gious ground is, can be fully ascertained only from the ritual works ; 
but an inference to this end may be obtained from Colebrooke's Essays 
*0n the Eeligious Ceremonies of the Hindus,' and particularly from 
that relating to the Sraddha (Miscellaneous Essays, vol. i., pp. 123 ff.); 
also from H. H. Wilson's * Eeligious Practices and Opinions of the 
Hindus ' (Works, vol. ii., pp. 40 ff. ; edited by Dr. E. Host). 

E 2 

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duties of a Hindu into such as are " indispensable," and others which 
" in their nature are voluntary,"* he was mistaken in assigning to the 
latter class "consecrations, the stated oblations at noon or evening 
with whatever else there may be of a similar kind, the performance or 
non-performance of which respects the individual merely." And he was 
likewise mistaken when he said that " the proof in question [viz. of par- 
tition] results from the separate solemnization of such [rites], the acquittal 
or neglect of which is attended with consequences beneficial, or other- 
wise, to the individual, in his capacity as housekeeper (gfihastha), or 
master of a family, the third and most important order among the 
Hindoos; of this kind are among others, the five great sacraments, in 
favour of " the divine sages, the manes, the gods, the spirits, and guests."t 
For we have seen that each member even of a united family must for 
himself perform several such ceremonies if the members of that family 
* cook ' apart from one another. And when he added, " Still such separate 
performance is not conclusive ; it is a circumstance merely," — we must 
point to the cases above mentioned, in which it is conclusive, provided the 
members of a family mess together. Again, exception must also be taken 
to the remark which the same learned author appended to a Faddit's answer 
touching the same question.^ "Had the division been doubtful," he 
said, " then certainly the joint performance of the ceremonies would be a 
conclusion against it ; a conclusion merely, however ; or, as it has been 
appositely called in another case, ^ a token ' (adyuharana, I suppose, in 
the original) not a proof." For, one of the ceremonies here alluded to 
is " the annual ceremony for a father," and the joint performance of such 
a ceremony, as we have seen, can only take place in a united family. The 
usual words for ' token,' moreover, from which he inferred that it implies 
a conclusion only, are in Sanskrit chihna and laksha'ha, and each is often 
used in the sense of " characteristic or essential mark," when it is tanta- 
mount to proof. 

The Editors of the Digest, however, not merely repeat, as we have 
seen, the general, and on account of its generality, objectionable state- 
ment of Strange, but after the words above quoted § add : " In the pre- 

* Hindu Law (1830), vol. i., pp. 227 ff. 

t Those explained in note f of p. 37 are here meant. 

% Hindu Law, vol. ii., p. 392. 

§ P. xiv. " The separate performance of the Yaiivadeva sacrifice, of 
Draddhas and other religious rites, is still less conclusive. At Dig. 
chapter iv., Q. 4, infra, a passage of Bhat'tojidikshita is quoted, accord- 
ing to which coparceners, living apart, may or may not perform the 
Yai^vadeva each for himself, and, in the present condition of Hindu 
society, &c." See p. 34, U. 12 ff. 

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sent condition of Hindu society, the performance of all reli^ous rites 
lias become so lax and irregular as to afford no safe gronnd for infer- 
ence." I do not know on what authority this sweeping assertion is made, 
for the Editors do not at all indicate the source whence it has been 
derived. Hitherto the most reliable accounts of the present religious 
condition of India seem to lead to the conclusion, supported also by the 
writings of Colebrooke, Wilson, Haug, and others, that there is still 
in the country a very large proportion of the community which very 
tenaciously clings to what it considers its orthodox faith, and that this 
community is extremely jealous of allowing any European to pry into 
its devotions and to become acquainted with the detail of them. Nor 
is it clear what the Editors call 'lax and irregular;* for, compared to 
the vedic ritual, for instance, that taught by the PurdiSas may be so 
qualified, and judged by the standard of the latter, doubtless more re- 
cent ceremonies may likewise be thus termed. A statement so vague and 
general is in reality therefore meaningless, for it neither specifies the 
ceremonies to which it relates, nor the period or the standard by which 
to obtain a medium of comparison between the present and past. Yet 
even if the Editors had afforded us the information required, and if their 
statement concerning the quality of the actual worship of the Hindus 
were in some sense correct, it still appears that their conclusion 
would not be borne out by it. For in so far as the Hindu law of in- 
heritance appeals to evidence based on religious groimds, it is quite 
immaterial whether the detail in the performance of this or any other 
ceremony concerned by it, agrees with the teaching of the ancient or 
mediffival, or even modem ritual— provided such a performance is held, 
rightly or wrongly, to be in the spirit of the orthodox faith. Whether, 
therefore, the Sraddhas or the Yaidvadeva, for instance, are now per- 
formed in strict accordance with the ritual relied upon by Colebrooke in 
his ' Essay on the Eeligious Ceremonies of the Hindus,' or not, is for legal 
purposes absolutely irrelevant, so long as the popular mind still believes 
that the ^raddha benefits the soul of a deceased relative, or that the 
Vai6vadeva removes the sins which a man may have committed in pre- 
paring his daily meals. And that this belief no longer exists, the 
Editors would still have to prove. It is certain, moreover, that the Law 
Courts of the Bombay Presidency and the Paiidits can entertain no 
doubts in this respect, for otherwise it would be unintelligible why in 
suits relating to inheritance, the judges should address questions to the 
Paiidits about the performance of Sraddha and other rites, and that the 
Paiidits should strengthen their replies by a reference to their doctrinal 
works ; and even the Bombay Digest reports three instances, at least, of 

Digitized by VjOOQIC 


such interrogatories, at pp. 48, 57, and 58. It would be a mistake, there- 
fore, on the part of an Indian judge were he to adopt the inference sug- 
gested to him by the Bombay Digest that no performance of any religious 
ceremony whatever can afford conclusiye evidence regarding the union 
or division of a Hindu family, and in consequence, that henceforth he 
may dispense with a study of the native authoritative works concerned 
in this matter. Even the few data here collected, by way of illustra-^ 
tion, will sufiGiciently show that in doubtful cases these works will still 
be his safest guide, 

Mr. Dadabhai Naoroji stated that Mr. J. D. Bell had expressed his regret at not 
being able to be present ; and Mr. Grady, reader of Hindu law at the Inns of Court, 
had also expressed his regret at being obliged to be elsewhere on urgent business, 
though he had intended to attend, and written to the effect that there was much of 
Hindu legal literature to be explored. He thought it was incumbent upon the Indian 
Government to employ some competent English scholars, assisted by learned natives, 
to translate all such books as related to Hindu law. 

Mr. Prichard. — I can fully endorse all that Dr. Goldstiicker has said as to the 
exceeding haziness that hangs about the translations of the Hindu law authorities 
that are at our disposal, and the unsatisfactory position which they occupy as text- 
books of Hindu law. In cases that arise the only resource that practitioners can 
have is to confine themselves to the precedents of the Privy Council reports; and 
when once it is necessary to leave that groove and to search for authority on some 
point upon which those precedents are silent, we become lost in what one can only 
describe as a maze. It would be most desirable, if it could be done, that a complete 
revision should be made of the whole of the books which we have now, or rather 
fragments of books. We cannot depend on the translations which we have of those 
books. We find sometimes that the precedents of Hindu law which we have been 
in the habit of looking on as settled Hindu law are altogether erroneous, and leading 
us astray. As regards the revision of the Hindu law books, I am quite sure if the 
matter was forcibly brought forward no objection could be made to it in high quarters. 
The only objection which could be made to it would be this, the Privy Council or 
tiie Law Commissioners might say, ^ It is unadvisable to translate these Hindu law 
books, because we have been going on now for so many years developing a code of 
Hindu law by these precedents and these principles which have been laid down by 
the decisions of the Privy Council, that it would be exceedingly unwise now to run 
the risk of disturbing the whole by producing what would be a correct code of 
Hindu law, but which might, nevertheless, be at variance with some of our pre- 
cedents.'* No doubt that is a diflBculty ; and if the Hindu law books were properly 
translated, by which the principles of the Hindu law could be plainly laid down, we 
should find that many of our old precedents had been leading ns astray in many 
important particulars. However, to any objection which might be raised to the 
revision of the Hindu law, we might make this answer, We have come ourselves 
very recently to the determination that it is advisable to revise the text of our own 
Scriptures ; and, I think, after that there can be no valid objection to revising the 
Hindu law. It should be done by some recognized committee in whom the public 
would have confidence, so that their work, when complete, would be taken and 
accepted as a standard work of reference upon Hindu law. 

General Jacob, after referring to Steele's compilation of Hindu Law as applicable 
to the west of India, observed that there were objections no doubt, to any very great 
alteration of the precedents laid down by the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council 
in cases in which there were differences of opinion amongst the ancient Hindu 
authorities, in which cases the Privy Council had generally taken a common-sense 
view, or an English view, as to what was right. 

Dr. GoLDSTTJCKEB explained that what he proposed should be done did not extend 
to giving an opinion in cases where there was a possibility of interpreting the same 

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law book in different ways, but only related io supplying the Law Courts with a 
sufficient amount of correct and trustworthy translations of Sanskrit law texts. 

General Jacob considered that it would be a most delicate thing to interfere with 
any precedent which coincided with our modem ideas of right, though it might not 
be found to be in accordance with the old Hindu law when properly translated. 
"We ought to study the feelings and the ideas of the natives as to how far they would 
like to be governed by old usages and notions to be derived from the old Hindu law 
books, and we ought to inquire whether they have not become so far obliterated by 
time as to be no longer binding on the consciences of the Hindu people. We ought 
to show the Indian nation tliat we are anxious to govern them according to their 
own feelings and their own laws. At the same time it was our duty where their laws 
were outrageous, as some of them were, to endeavour to modify them. When the 
British Government induced the Kao of Kutch, who has always been most desirous 
to please us and to be most faithful to us, to abolish suttee, he fasted forty days and 
nights, because lie was giving up what he considered a sacred duty. We had inter- 
fered in the case of suttee, though sanctioned by Hindu law and honoured by the 
people. The code of Mann indeed ignored this cruel rite, to which I appealed as 
other strengthening reasons for its abrogation that I was pressing on the consideration 
of his Highness. I trust, then, wherever any part of the Hindu law conflicted with 
natural right and justice and humanity, and it had become obsolete, we should be 
careful not to reinstate it. It was very much to be lamented that we had in some 
cases, as regards the law of adoption, for instance, lost sight of the first principle of 
government, viz. to govern a people according to their usages, and not to ride rough- 
shod over their most sacred feelings. We might just as well have interfered with the 
law of marriage as with the law of adoption. 

Mr. Dadabhai Nagrgji suggested that the Council be requested to brin^ this 
matter to tlie attention of the Duke of Argyll when the deputation went to him on 
the subject of the delay of justice in th^ Privy CouncU. 

Chaibman. — It appears to me that Dr. Goldstiicker has convinced us of three 
things : first, that many translations of the Hindu law books are incorrect ; secondly, 
that the judges who abide by those translations know nothing of Sanskrit ; and third, 
that they ought to know something of Sanskrit. With r^ard to a revision of the 
translations, it does not appear to me that there would be any real difficulty if the 
alterations and modifications consequent upon that revision were found not to tally 
exactly with the curriculum of the judgments of the Privy Coimcil. If we have been 
going wrong so long, the best thing we can do is to go right hereafter ; and it appears 
to me that we ought to take some action in this matter, with a view to remedying the 
great abuses which have been brought before us. It is impossible to exaggerate the 
importance of some of those gross blunders which have been committed by the highest 
courts of the country, owing to the ignorance of the real text of Hindu law. It has 
been a reproach to our Administration for many years that we have had judges 
administering a law they know nothing about. This is a state of things wluch, if 
once considered &irly by the authorities, cannot, I am sure, be allowed to continue. 
The Duke of Argyll has expressed his willingness to receive a deputation from the 
Association regarding the reconstruction of the Privy Council ; that is to say, the 
organization cf a court that would be able more speedily to dispose of the cases coming 
before it. In a few days the Privy Council will sit, with a list of no less than sixty- 
three cases from different colonies before it, of wliich number they will not be able to 
decide one quarter. If things go on as at present the arrears will accumulate to an 
extent painful to contemplate. When we go before the Duke of Argyll and press that 
matter upon his attention, we might also put before him the views of this Association 
on this matter, viz, that it is higiily expedient that some immediate practical steps 
should be taken with a view to avail ourselves of the services of critical Sanskrit 
scholars in obtaining a more accurate translation of the Hindu law texts. The feeling 
of the meeting being apparently in accordance with that suggestion, it might be dis- 
cussed in the Council and put into a practical shape. ^ I am quite sure we all of us 
appreciate the extreme importance of that happy accident which has brought Dr. 
Goldstiicker's learning and erudition to enlighten us upon the subject, and point out 
to us the causes which have rendered it possible for our highest courts to go wrong 
in ca£es involving important private and public interests. 

General Jacob proposed a vote of thanks to Dr. Goldstucker ft>r his paper, and 
suggested the advisability of having the opinions of the native press upon the qucbtion. 

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and to deal with the subject in a careful manner; which motion, having been 
seconded by Mr. Dadabhai Naoroji, was passed accordingly. 

On the motion of Mr. Devan Kazi Shahabudin, seconded by Dr. Goldstuckeb, 
a vote of thanks was passed to the Chainnan.j 


A MEETING of the Bombay Branch of the East India Association was held at the 
Framjee Cowasjee Institute on Wednesday, the 27th of April, 1870, at six o'clock, p.m. 
On the motion of Mr. B. M. Wagle, seconded by Mr. Budroodeen Tyabjeb, Mr. 
Dhunjeebhoy Framjee Patell was called to the Chair. 

The minutes of last meeting were then read and confirmed. The correspondence 
between the Secretary of State for India and the Council of the East India Associa- 
tion on the subject of the Victoria Scholarships was next laid before the meeting, 
after which the Chairman called upon Mr. Pherozshah M. Mehta to read his Paper 
" On Clause 6 of the East India (Laws and Regulations) Bill." 

Mr, Mehta read the following paper : — 

On the East India (Laws and Regulations) Bill, Clause 6.* 

I propose in this paper to discuss the bearing and utility of Clause 6 of the East 
India (Laws and Regulations) Bill, now before the British Legislature. To divest 
the discussion of what is generally deprecated as a purely speculative or theoretical 
character, I propose to prosecute this disci^psion in comparison or contrast with 
another scheme for the accomplishment of the same end as that enunciated by 
Clause 6 : — viz. " The expediency of giving additional fewjilities for the employment 
of natives of India in the Civil Service of Her Majesty in India." The origin of this 
scheme which I propose to make use of in this manner is by no means of recent date. 
Traces of it are distinguishable in the great parliamentary contests of 1813, 1833, and 
1853, on the Govemment-of-India Bills of those years. The scheme, however, in its 
modem form, is simply this : — To allow a certain number of Civil Service appoint- 
ments to be competed for in India itself, say in its great Presidency towns, and to 
require the selected candidates to complete their education by a sojourn of about two 
years in England, the same two years which under the existing rules of the service 
are passed by selected candidates in the same manner. 

It is not without considerable hesitation that I undertake such a comparative 
criticism of Clause 6. The clause combines in its favour the suffrages of some of the 
greatest Indian statesmen at home. Framed and proposed by a Conservative Secre- 
tary of State for India, Sir Stafford Northcote, it was taken up last year by a Liberal 
Indian Minister, the Duke of Argyll, with the hearty and unqualified approbation 
of another Conservative statesman, the predecessor of both Sir Stafford Northcote and 
the Duke of Argyll in the India Office — the Marquis of Salisbury, better known to 
us as Lord Cranborne — and is perhaps at this moment being carried through the 
House of Commons by an Under Secretary of great promise and rising reputation, Mr. 
Grant Duff. To say that the framers and patrons of this measure are no less actuated 
by the noblest dictates of justice and humanity than distinguished for their high attain- 
ments and statesmenlike abilities would be perhaps to repeat what is already perfectly 
familiar to you all. Nothing but objections of a most grave and weighty character can 
therefore warrant the unfavourable criticism of a measure brought under such auspices. 
No slight defects or minor drawbacks should be allowed to militate against its 
favourable, even cordial reception. No mere difference of degree in the respective 
values of the two schemes proposed to be compared should be allowed much consider- 
ation. No such difference should be allowed to abate one jot of our gratitude for its 
positive value. But, after the most careful and anxious deliberation, I have been 
obliged to come to the opinion that Clause 6 of the Bill, if passed into law, is calcu- 
lated to attain its object only at the risk of causing a fearful amount of mischief, 
which cannot easily be exaggerated. In itself, it embodies a measure of such > a 

* See Act ittself in the Appendix, p. 67. 

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pernicious tendency that its rejection would be still beneficieJ in any eyent, though 
that rejection may involve the postponement of any settlement of the question for an 
indefinite period. It threatens to undo the most valuable results of the legislation of 
1853 and 1858 ; it threatens to produce disorder and confusion in a department of the 
Indian Grovernment, on which in a great measure depend the proper administration, 
well-being, and progress of India ; it threatens to sow fruitful seeds of discord be- 
tween races among whom they are already by far too abundant. It is because I am 
firmly convinced that such disastrous consequences would inevitably result from the 
passing of this clause, that I feel constrained to undertake the ungracious task of 
criticising it. 

The fundamental objections to this measure may be summed up under a few 
principal heads. They are, — 1st, that it strikes a fatal blow at the principle of 
competition in the Civil Service of India ; 2nd, that it revives and encourages the 
promotion of political jobbery ; 3rd, that it destroys the unity and ei^rit-de-corps of 
the service ; 4th, that it is unjust and demoralizing for the natives themselves. 

1 . In urging the first objection to this measure I am not unaware that it is not 
unconmion even at the present day to question and condemn the fitness and policy of 
the principle of competition with reganl to the Civil Service of India. I am not un- 
aware that there are people with whom the objection, so far from going against, is a 
positive recommendation in favour of the measure. I am not unaware that such is the 
view taken by the Duke of Argyll. In moving the second reading of a Bill containing a 
similar clause in the House of Lords last year, the Duke of Argyll expounded with his 
usual force and clearness the view he took of the matter. His Lordship spoke as 
follows : — " The Company, as your Lordships are aware, was deprived of its commerce 
by the Acts of 1813 and 1833, and when the succeeding twenty years had expired, and 
the Government of Loid Aderdeen had to consider wlmt was called the renewal of the 
Charter, it was also considered whether it would not be expedient to assume at once 
in name as well as in reality the Government of India as the Government of the Crown. 
I well remember the discussions at that time ; and I venture to say the main difiiculty 
in our way was this : we did not know how to get rid of the patronage of the Com- 
pany after it should have been removed from the Directors. It was found that to 
open it to fair competition was the only expedient. There was indeed no alternative, 
for Parliament — with perhaps almost too much jealousy, through the ancient echoes 
still ringing on the ears of men on that subject— would not have tolerated the exer- 
cise of that patronage directly by the Crown, and if not by the Crown, by whom 
could it be exercised ? It was therefore thrown open to competition. What may be 
the feelings of individual members of your Lordships* House I do not know, but I 
confess I have never been such a fanatic in support of competitive examination as to 
believe that that is the sole or in all cases the best method of getting the best men 
for the public service. But it is an escape from many diificulties, and when you have 
only a choice of difficulties, competitive examination gives on the whole a much better 
chsjice of success than the pure nepotism of the ancient Court of Directors ; but the 
exercise of patronage when it is wholly removed from the danger of political jobbery 
or family nepotism is perhaps the very best mode of selecting men for the public 
service." Id. carefully examining this statement it is not difficult to discover that it 
is founded mainly upon two arguments. The first is a negative argument, viz, 
that it is not inherent in the very nature of patronage to degenerate in the long run 
into political jobbery. The second is the statement of an historical fact, viz, that the 
Act of 1853 did not introduce the principle of competition, as in itself a better system 
than that of patronage, but as permitting the only escape out of the constitutional 
danger of vesting the patronage of the service in the Crown. Now it must be con- 
fessed that the Duke is not far wrong in his historical statement. Anyone who 
reads the warm debates on the India Bill of 1853 cannot fail to perceive that most of 
the speakers who advocated the principle of competition were actuated in so doing 
more by the motive described by the Duke than by any appreciation of its superi- 
ority over the system of patronage. It must not be thought, however, that among the 
framers and advocates of the Bill there were none who fully understood the entire 
scope and bearing of the new principle it introduced. There were two members, two 
of the greatest thinkers and statesmen that England has ever produced, who not only 
grasped the problem in all its length and breadth, but also expounded it with a force 
and eloquence but rarely surpassed. It will not be amiss to call your attt ntion to 
their arguments, at a time when the principle of competition is not only directly 

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assailed by its adversaries, but its positive Yalue is but faintly understood or realized 
by its advocates. I will therefore make no apology for the lengthy extracts with 
which I am going to trouble you. Mr. Lowe, one of the two members I have just 
referred to, said : " That as regarded the Civil Service, he maintained that the course 
taken by the Government was beyond all controversy right. He should be grieved 
to see this Bill deferred if only because it would deprive India for years of the enor- 
mous benefits which would arise from the reform in the Civil Service. The Civil 
Service of India was very different from any other service. In the generality of cases 
an incompetent oflScer had other people to do his work for him ; he was perhaps 
scolded a little, but could contrive to get on without doing any serious amount of 
mischief; but it was not so in India. The peculiarity of the Civil Service there was 
the vast, the tremendous amount of responsibility thrown upon every individual 
oflScer of the Government. Millions of people were completely under the control of 
one man, who had the power of inflicting misery on these persons ; and under such 
circumstances it was a most sacred duty cast upon the Government to see not merely 
that the general average of officers was tolerably good, but that in the case of every 
writer sent out they obtained the best and ablest men this country could afford, and 
that they did not, for the sake of obliging friends and relations or any such reason, 
sacrifice one atom of the power of doing good towards the people whom Providence 
had placed under their power. It was their duty to take care that every man sent 
out was as able as could be found within the four seas, and where they knowingly 
and wilfully sent out a worse when a better was at their disposal, they might be in- 
flicting enormous evils on a people who had every claim on their sympathies and 
consideration. He had read the speech of a noble Lord who with infinite knowledge, 
with infinite eloquence, and with infinite ingenuity, pleaded the cause of ignorance, 
and so persuasively, that he might say — * If I am to be persuaded I would be just as 
ignorant as to be as learned a teacher and no more.* That noble Lord said that public 
examinations were the greatest absurdity ; that they would get nothing but block- 
heads ; that nothing was so bad as an over-educated man ; and that they woxdd be send- 
ing out only a number of pedants and schoolmasters. That was not the experience of 
that House or of the country. He would like to know who took the lead in this 
country ? On whose lips did deliberative assemblies hang ? To whose opinions did the 
public give heed ? The men who had shone in public examinations, and carried off 
those very prizes which that most learned and eloquent nobleman so vehemently de- 
cried Nothing was more distressing in the evidence that had been given 

before the Committee on India than the fact that the kindly feeling which had hitherto 
existed between the Europeans and natives whether in the army or Civil Service was 
on the decline — that there was not the same sympathy between them. In his opinion 
nothing was more likely to correct that want of sympathy than an improvement in 
the intellectual standard of those to whom they entrusted the management of the 
natives and the government of the country ; be^jause in the first place there was a 
close connection between the moral and intellectual qualities of the human mind ; 
and in the second place it was well known that ignorance and stupidity led to the 
harsh and brutal treatment of inferiors." The other member I have spoken of was 
no less than Lord, then Mr. Macaulay. He spoke on the subject as follows : — " It 
appears we are agreed that it is of the highest importance that the Civil Service of 
India should be most capable and efficient. In this case it certainly necessarily 
follows that we ought to watch with the utmost care over the road to admission 
to that service— that we ought if possible to take such measures that this service 
may consist entirely of picked men, of superior men taken from the flower of the 
youth of India. Now it is because in my opinion this Bill does tend to produce 
that effect that I feel earnestly desirous that it should pass, and pass without 
delay. My right honourable friend. Sir C. Wood, proposes that all places in the 
Civil Service— all admissions to the Civil Service — shall be distributed among 
young men by competition in those studies— as I understand the plan — which con- 
stitute a liberal British education. That plan was originally suggested by Lord 
Granville in 1818 in a speech which, though I do not concur in every part of it, I 
would earnestly recommend every gentleman to read, for I believe that since the 
death of Burke nothing more remarkable has been delivered. Nothing, however, on 
this point was then done, and the matter slept till 1833, when my friend Lord Glenelg, 
the purest and most disinterested of men, proposed the adoption of a plan, not alto- 
gether framed according to those views, but still a plan which would have introduced 

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this principle of oompetition. Upon that plan twenty years ago I remember speaking 
here. I ought not to say here, for the then House of Commons has been burnt down, 
and of the audience I then addressed the greater part has passed away. But my 
opinion on that subject has always been the same. The Bill was passed, but diflS- 
culties were either found or made — the fault lies between the Government and this 
House. The Company were less to blame, and they had opposei the thing from the 
beginning. The enactments to which I have referred were repealed, and the patronage 
ran in its own course. It is now proposed to introduce this principle of competition 
again, and I do most earnestly entreat this House to give it a fair trial. I was truly 
glad to hear the noble Lord who proposed the present amendment (Lord Stanley) ex- 
press approval of the general principle of that part of the Bill. I was glad but not sur- 
prised at it, for it is what I should expect from a young man of his spirit and ability, 
and recent experience of academical competition. But I must say I do join with the 
honourable member for Kidderminster (Mr. Lowe) in feeling some surprise at the 
manner in which that part of the plan has been spoken of by a nobleman of great 
eminence, once President of the Board of Control and Governor-General of India, and 
of very distinguished ability both as an orator and a statesman. If I understood the 
opinions imputed to that noble Lord, he thinks the proficiency of a young man in 
those pursuits which constitute a liberal education, is not only no indication that he 
is likely in after-life to make a distinguished figure, but that it positively raises a 
presumption that in after-life he will be overpassed by those he overcame in these 
early contests. I understand that the noble Lord is of opinion that young men gain- 
ing distinction in such pursuits, are likely to turn out dullards and utterly unfit for 
the contests of active life. And I am not sure that the noble Lord did not say that 
it would be better to make boxing and cricket a test of fitness than a liberal educa- 
tion. I must say it seems to me that there never was a fact better proved by an 
immense mass of evidence, by an experience almost unvaried, than this — that men 
who distinguish themselves in their youth above their contemporaries in academic 
competition, almost always keep to the end of their lives the start they have gained 
in the earlier part of their career. This experience is so vast, that I should as soon 
expect to hear anyone question it as to hear it denied that arsenic is poison or that 
brandy is intoxicating. Take the very simplest test. Take down in any library the 
Cambridge Calendar. There you have the list of honours for a hundred years. Look 
at the list of wranglers and of junior optimes, and I will venture to say that for one 
man who has in after-life distinguished himself among the junior optimes, you will 
find twenty among the wranglers. Take the Oxford Calendar ; look at the list of 
first-class men and compare them with an equal number of men in the third class, 
and say in which list you find the majority of men who have distinguished themselves 
in after-life. But is not our history full of instances which prove this fact? Look 
at the Chmrch, the Parliament, or the Bar. Look to the Parliament from the time 
when Parliamentary Government began in this country — from the days of Montague 
and St. John to those of Canning and Peel. You need not stop there, but come down 
to the time of I^ord Derby and my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the 
Exchequer. Has it not always been the case that the men who were first in the 
competition of the schools have been the first in the competition of life ? Look also 
to India. The ablest man who ever governed India was Warren Hastings, and was 
he not in the first rank of Westminster ? The ablest civil servant I ever knew in 
India was Sir Charles Metcalfe, and was he not a man of the first standing at Eton ? 
The most distinguished member of the aristocracy who ever governed India was Lord 
Wellesley. What was his Eton reputation ? What was his Oxford reputation ? But 
I must mention — I cannot refrain from mentioning — another noble and distinguished 
Governor-General. A few days ago, while the memory of the speech to which I have 
alluded was still fresh in my mind, I read in the * Musse Cantabrigienses * a very elo- 
quent and classical ode, which the University of Cambridge rewarded with a gold 
medal. The subject was the departure of the House of Braganza from Portugal for 
Brazil. The young poet, who was then only seventeen, described in very Horatian 
language and versification the departure of the fleet, and pictured the great Portu- 
guese navigator Vasco De Gama, and the great Portuguese poet Camoens, hovering 
over the armament which was to convey the fortunes of the Portuguese Monscrchy to 
a new hemisphere ; and with pleasure, not altogether unmingled with pain, I read at 
the bottom of that composition, the name of the Honourable Edward Law of St. John's 
College. I must say I saw with some considerable pleasure that the name of Lord 

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EUenborough may be added to the long list of those distmguished men who in early- 
youth have by eminent academical success given an augury of the distinguished part 
which they were afterwards to play in public life ; and I could not but feel some con- 
cern and some surprise that a nobleman, so honourably distinguished in his youth by 
attention to those studies, should, in his maturer years, have descended to use lan- 
guage respecting them which I think would have better become the lips of Ensign 
Northerton or the Captain in Swift's poem, who says — 

" ' A scholard, when first from his college broke loose, 
Can hardly tell how to cry boh ! to a goose. 
Your Noveds and Bluturcks, and OmurB and stuff, 
By George, they don't signify this pinch of snuflF. 
To give a young gentleman right education, 
The Army's the only good school in the nation/ " 

^^ The noble Lord seemed from his speech to entertain that opinion. (A laugh.) 

** * My schoolmaster called me a dunce and a fool, 
But at cuffs I was always the cock of the schooU" 

" But if a recollection of his own early academical triumphs did not restrain the 
noble Earl from using this language, I should have thought that his filial piety 
would have had that eifect. I should have thought that he would have remembered 
how eminently splendid was the academical career of that great and strong-minded 
magistrate, the late Lord EUenborough ; and as I have mentioned him, I will say that 
if there be in this world a trying test of the fitness of men for the competition of 
active life, and of the strength and acuteness of their practical faculties, it is to be 
found in the contests of the English Bar. Have not the most eminent of our judges 
distinguished themselves in their academical career ? Look at Lord Mansfield, Lord 
Eldon, Lord Stowell, Sir Vicary Gibbs, Chief Justice Tindall, Lord Tenterden, and 
Lord Lyndhurst. Can we suppose that it was by mere accident all these obtained 
their high positions ? Is it possible not to believe that these men maintained through 
life the start which they gained in youth ? And is it an answer to these instances to 
say that you can point — as it is desirable you should be able to point — to two or three 
men of great powers who, having neglected the struggle when they were young, stung 
with remorse and generous shame, have afterwards exerted themselves to retrieve 
lost time, and have sometimes overtaken and surpassed those who had got far in 
advance of them ? Of course there are such exceptions ; most desirable it is that 
there should be, and that they should be noted, for they seem intended to encourage 
men who, after having thrown away their youth from levity or love of pleasure, may 
be inclined to throw their manhood after it in despair ; but the general rule is, beyond 
all doubt, that which I have laid down. It is this — that those men who distinguish 
themselves most in academical competition when they are young, are the men who in 
after-life distinguish themselves most in the competition of the world. Now if this 
be so, I cannot conceive that we should be justified in refusing to India the advantage 
of such a test. I know there are gentlemen who say — for it has been said—* After 
all, this test extends only to a man's intellectual qualifications, and his character is 
quite as important as his intellectual qualifications.* I most readily admit that 
his character is as important as his intellectual qualifications; but unfortunately 
you have not quite so certain a test of a man's character as you have of his intellec- 
tual qualifications. Surely if there are two qualifications you want a man to possess 
and which it is very important he should possess, and if you have a test by which 
you can ascertain the presence of the one qualification, but no decisive test by which 
you can ascertain the presence of the other, your best course is to use the test you 
have and to leave as little as you possibly can to chance." 

I have copied this long extract even at the risk of being charged with prolixity. 
But it may be asked. What has all this to do with the present measure, which leaves 
intact the principle of competition so far as Englishmen are concerned ? In the first 
place, then, I maintain that these remarks are as applicable to the admission of 
Natives to the Civil Service as to the admission of Englishmen. If they prove any- 
thing, they prove this— first, that merit ought to be the sole door of introduction to 
the seryice, and secondly, that no test could be more permanently eflScient for this 
purpose than a test which precluded even a possibility of any individual feelings, pas- 
sions, or prejudices having a voice in the matter, than a test worked only by a 
mechanical system, than a test whose impartiality was guaranteed by its impassi- 

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bility. Nay, further, that even if a system of patronage could be devised which would 
not admit of jobbery, no individual or even reasonable combinations of individuals could 
be found whose qualifications for discriminating merit for a whole service could be 
relied on for any length of time so well as those of competitive examinations. To 
borrow again some words of Lord Macaulay, " The most unscrupulous Governor- 
General would dispose of his patronage under the present system more properly than 
an upright Governor-General under a system by which he should be at liberty to 
appoint any one." I cannot help remarking that the Duke of Argyll in his criticism 
of the competition system, carried away by his historical reminiscences, has been 
totally unable to grasp this deep and comprehensive view of the problem. Applied 
to natives or Europeans, introduced in India or England, the system of patronage 
under any form or shape whatever, is open to the same fundamental objections, and 
is under any circumstances far inferior to the system of competitive examinations. 
In the second place, it were well to remember the utterances of these great men in 
view of a contingency which, if this clause is passed, cannot, I apprehend, be far dis- 
tant. It seems to me that the passing of this measure would open the door for the 
total overthrow of the competition system. The logic of popular inference is inex- 
orable ; and the day would not be far distant when the injustice of the inequality 
would be unanswerably advanced for an admission of Ehiglushmen similar to that of 
the natives. That day would be a day of unmitigated calamity for India, the respon- 
sibility of which would lie, I cannot help saying, with the authors of this measmre. 
It is true that the present Civil Service of India is sometimes unfavourably compared 
with its predecessor. I must confess I have never been able to discover the grounds 
of this unfavourable comparison. One stock argument which is generally u^ is to 
cite up an array of some half a dozen names, all put in the plural number, Olives and 
Metcalfes, Munros and Malcolms and Elphinstones. But this argument has never 
appeared to me anything more than a mere rhetorical flourish. For in the first place, 
I ^oxdd say that most of these great men produced themselves, in spite of the East 
India Oompany and its Directors, and promoted themselves Ton occasions of peril) to 
responsible appointments, which the Directors would never have thought of confer- 
ring upon them of their own free choice and motion. Their subsequent rise was due 
only to this successful assertion of their abilities. But, in the second place, taking 
this argument for what it is worth, is it any test at all of the comparative values of 
two entire services ? The only proper test would be the average quality of the admi- 
nistrations, revenue, political, judicial, of the two services. In this respect I will 
venture to say that no one can rise after a careful perusal of the records of Indian 
administration without a feeling of devout thankfulness and gratitude to the authors 
of the Act of 1853. It seems that the advocates of the old system have forgotten the 
terrible exposures of gross maladministration that were elicited during the inquiries 
of 1784, 1813, 1833, and 1853. I must again repeat that it would be a woeful day 
for India when this present Oivil Service should be annihilated and its principle 
abolished. But such would most probably be the logical sequence of the measure 
now before Parliament. Like the thin point of a wedge, let patronage but once 
secure its footing, and it fails not to penetrate and undermine the whole service. We 
may say, in the words of the poet : — 

'*It is the Uttte rift within the Inte; 
That by and by will make the muBic mute, 
And ever widening slowly silence all. 
The litUe rift within the lover's lute, 
Or little pitted speck in gamer'd fruit, 
That rotting inward slowly moulders all." 

In passing from this objection, it will perhaps be more proper to take up the 
objection on the score of the integrity of the Oivil Service. The only difficulty of 
treating this objection lies in its being so palpably evident. It is impossible to select 
men for the same service by two distinct methods without producing jealousy and 
rivalry. In the case of the Indian Civil Service, the evil would be twofold. The 
jealousy and rivalry between race and race would be aggravated by inequality of 
facility for admission, and the result would not fail to be the utter annihUation of all 
unity and integrity. In connection with this subject may be mentioned the effect of 
the measure on the training of the service. Under the present constitution of the 
service, merit is not only selected, but there is also provision made for training it. 

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The fallacy is nowadays exploded which maintained that scientific development 
was not necessary to abUity and genius. It is now fully recognized that the greatest 
men are greater by training. The organization of the Civil Service embodies in 
itself a guarantee for graduated homogeneous training. If the present clause is 
passed, what becomes of that guarantee? It cannot fail to be perceived that one 
effect of the measure would be materially to deteriorate the average efficiency of the 
service in this respect. 

Another result of a similar character which is likely to follow may also be men- 
tioned here. While on the one hand the measure takes away the guarantee for such 
an official or departmental training as we have just described, on the other it will 
encourage official and departmental knowledge of a very narrow and limited kind at 
the expense of that preliminary general liberal education which the present compe- 
tition system renders indispensable, and which alone knows how best to employ and 
turn to account official knowledge and experience. 

The next count of our bill of indictment against this measure relates to its ten- 
dency of promoting jobbery. The Duke of Argyll has not entirely overlooked thia 
objection. But he maintains that there is no risk whatever of the Government of 
India being influenced by political jobbery or family nepotism. There are no grounds 
given by the Duke in support of his assertion except perhaps a theoretical inference 
involved in the assertion itself, viz, — that political jobbery is confined only to family 
or racial nepotism. Now this is an assertion which is unwarranted by all the known 
facts or laws of human nature. The failing of favouritism is a feeling deeply ingrained 
in human nature, and is worked upon as much by a tropical as by a temperate sun. 
There are various species of it — ^there is the unscrupulous species ; then there \b the 
ignorant species. Then there is a species of a more subtle character, where the dio- 
tates of your conscience are constrained to yield more or less complacently to the 
dictates of what is called yomr heart. Now I hope I shall not be miisunderstood when 
I say that the Gk)vemment of India is no exception to the universal rule. I have no 
doubt that it comprises a body of men of high honour and integrity. But after 
admitting that, we may well say of them what Mr. Bright once said of the India 
Directors : — " He had not the least idea, in any observations he made either in that 
House or elsewhere, of bringing a charge against the East India Company— that was 
to say, against any individual member of the Board of Direotors — as if they were 
anxious to misgovern India. He never had any such suspicion. He believed that 
the twenty-four gentlemen who constituted the Board of Directors would act just 
about as well as any other twenty-four persons elected by the same process, standing 
under the same circumstances, and surrounded by the same difficulties." We may 
thus fairly say of the Grovemment of India, whatever that may mean, that if you 
place before them the temptation of patronage, it would not be long before there 
would spring up a system — ^if not of pure or quasi family nepotism— of at least of 
what I may be allowed to call protegism. Not that such a system of protegism 
would be the immediate consequence of the passing of the clause. The process of 
development, on the contrary, would most probably be slow and gradual. But this 
we may assert without fear of exaggeration, as warranted by aU tiie lessons of poli- 
tical experience, that it would be as sure and inevitable as the growth of despotism 
out of an absolute monarchy. In India this process is, however, likely to be much 
accelerated on account of the peculiar circumstances of the relations between the 
governors and the governed. Whatever may be the cause of it, it is a well-known 
fact that the knowledge possessed of the natives of India by their rulers is by no 
means very extensive or accurate. There is almost a total absence of all social or 
even intellectual intercourse, without which it is almost impossible to form any just 
estimate of merit or character. Under such circumstances, the dispensers of the 
patronage would generally be obliged to be satisfied with second-hand information, 
in itself subject to the sway of a thousand influences, which it would be by no means 
easy or pleasant to enumerate. Add to this difficulty that of having to select from a 
population which, in its differences, writers on India have been so fond of comparing 
to the various races and nations that inhabit the whole continent of Europe. And 
what a task for the ablest, justest, most scrupulous, most virtuous, most discriminat- 
ing dispenser of patronage 1 And even if we found for once such a giant of virtue 
and ability, the question would still remain how to perpetuate the breed of such a 
species. It is thus obvious that, in India, patronage would not only transform itself 
into protegism, but it would degenerate into protegism of a doubly unjust character. 

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It would not only be tainted with the dye of favouritism, but also with that of a dan- 
gerous ignorance and uncertainty. It may, indeed, be urged against our conclusion, 
that it may be stigmatized as a theoretical inference equally with the proposition laid 
down by the Duke. But, after distinguishing between inferences founded upon facts, 
however general, and those unwarranted by any experience, we must say that there 
is no way of practically proving our conclusions except by referring to the manner in 
which the patronage of the uncovenanted appointments have been dispensed by the 
Government of India in the case of the natives, except in those instances which are 
regulated by tests similar to the existing tests of the Covenanted Service. Now, even 
at the risk of being charged with incompletely handling so important a subject, I must 
disclaim the invidious burden of such a task, particularly when I apprehend that in 
any general reflections on the nature of the class of uncovenanted appointments, I 
might be supposed to include some, the holders of which have, by performing their 
duties with equal honour to themselves and advantage to their country, triumphantly 
refuted the interested and hostile calumnies of would-be despots against the talents 
and abilities of the natives of India. I will only mention a suggestion that has oc- 
curred to several of my friends, that it was high time that the Uncovenanted Service 
should be subject to some such competitive examinations as the Covenanted Civil 

The last objection against this measure is, that it is unjust and demoralizing for 
the natives themselves. It is unjust, because the patronage would be practically 
confined to a small class of Government employes and hangers-on, and withholds the 
incentive of exertion from the natives at large ; it is demoralizing, because it takes 
away that potent impulse of emulation which would fight the Englishman on his own 
terms, and would be anxious to give while demanding fair play from him. 

These are some of the positive objections against the measure. If we compare it 
with the other scheme which I sketched out at the conunencement of this paper, 
we shall find that it has also negative defects of omission. No one who has watched 
the discussions that have taken place for some time peist on the subject of the " Ad- 
mission of Natives into the Civil Service," can have failed to observe that a visit to 
Europe has been laid down as a necessary and almost indispensable qualification for 
a native civil servant, by men whose Indian experience entitle their opinion to the 
highest weight and consideration. Now, while in our scheme we change the time of 
this visit to a period subsequent to the preliminary examinations, when the success 
of the candidate is ascertained, we fully admit the desirability of contact with English 
life, and of intercourse with English society. Indeed, the value of such a visit cannot 
be too highly estimated in a country which must guard against misunderstanding 
and exaggerating while adopting English civilization. The Duke of Argyll has 
completely ignored this consideration in the measmre he has brought forward. It 
was the great difficulty of the problem. Without in any way attempting to meet it, 
the Government measure introduces other elements highly objectionable. Indeed, it 
is surprising that the other measure, so long advocated by our parent body in London, 
should not have recommended itself to the Duke as the only one at once safe, just, 
and efficient. The only change that it requires in the present organization of com- 
petitive examinations is that of holding them for a certain limited number of appoint- 
ments in the capital towns of India instead of in London. Already the selected 
English candidates are kept two years in England before they are employed; so 
would the selected native candidates, with the advantage of seeing English life and 
civilization at a time when they could understand and appreciate them. The only 
possible objection which I have heard urged against this scheme is, that it would 
render the examinations here and in London imequal in their character. But surely 
such an objection could not be meant to be seriously urged, if we only remembered 
that the examinations taldng place yearly at the present moment were equally un- 
equal as if they were held at different places. The inequality is the same, whether 
it is that between the batch of selected candidates of one year and that of another, or 
whether it is that between the batch examined in one place and that examined in 
another. It is really entirely immaterial, so long as the average efficiency of the 
examinations is maintained ; and it is in the hands of Government to maintain this 
efficiency in India as in London. And now that we have our electric cable completely 
laid, it is not impossible to have even the same examination papers. 

In instituting this comparison between the two schemes, which require only to be 
brought face to face to perceive their relative values, it is impossible not to speculate 

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on the existence of some silent reason operating in the background in the minds of 
the framers of the Government measure deciding them to give it preference. And 
that there is such a reason it is not diflScult to discover from a careful perusal of what 
has been written and spoken on this subject since 1813 by its friends as well as its 
opponents. Stated in plain terms, it is this— that the average morale presumed hy a 
competitive examination is not so high among the natives of India as among English- 
men. There are two assertions involved in this argument which we will examine 
separately. The first is that of the relative inferiority of native to English morale. 
The second is, that intellectual cultivation does not induce moral improvement. 

In examining the first dictum, I am not going to adopt the course of indignantly 
discarding the idea altogether. It would be childish to do any such thing, when 
it certainly could not be denied that such has been the honest belief of some of the 
most sincere friends the natives of India ever had*. On the contrary, I am going to 
confess that there is apparently some ground for it. But let us calmly analyse this 
appearance. In the first place, an impartial comparison requires an independent 
standard. Now Englishmen always imconsciously compare English and Indian 
moralities by the tests of their own civilization. Now there can be no greater fallacy 
than this. I remember, during the late Reform debates, the leaders of both the 
parties in the House of Commons startling Englishmen by informing them that, in 
spite of the general impression on the subject, there was perhaps more social and 
political liberty in France than in England. The fallacy of the popular English 
opinion on the subject was that it persisted in gauging French liberty by certain 
forms and indices which represented it in their own country. Englishmen commit 
the same mistake in judging of Indian morality as they do in estimating French 
liberty. The science of comparative history shows us that it is quite possible that 
one morality may set greater store by one set of virtues, and another by an altogether 
different set. And if you attempt to judge of the one by the prominent characteristics 
of the other, the resiUt must be at the same time unfavourable and unjust. Now 
English civilization is particularly strong in the point of its political morality. In 
In<&a, on the contrary, where political development was, generally speaking, never 
allowed to advance beyond the ideal of " a good king," it has not perhaps arrived at 
the same perfection. But again Indian would be found superior to English morality 
in several other social respects, such as in point of charity, hospitality, &c. From 
this point of view it may he perceived that, though possessing different character- 
istics, it would be diflScult to say that English morality was positively and absolutely 
superior to Indian morality. In the second place, there is another element of error 
in the English judgment about Indian morality. This judgment is chiefly based 
upon the English experience of the morality of native employes of a very inferior 
class, who, badly remunerated, are not conspicuous for honesty or integrity. But 
would Englishmen placed in a similar position be impregnable to bribery and corrup- 
tion ? We must be strangely forgetting Indian history if we did not remember that, 
even in high positions. Englishmen, so long as the remuneration for their services 
was inadequate to their value, forgot this boasted integrity and gave in to the most 
rapacious extortions. But would all this be allowed to impeach at the present day 
the unquestionable integrity of English ofl&cials of the higher class ? By no means. 
But then in common fairness no such presumption should be allowed to operate 
against the natives of India when placed in positions of responsibility and trust, and 
remunerated accordingly. The want of honesty discovered in certain people under 
certain circumstances no more indicates a low state of national morality among the 
natives than among Englishmen. If we were disposed to recriminate, the annals of 
English history are not difficult of access, and the long and continuous tale which 
they tell of parliamentary corruption, bribery, and treachery, beginning with the ex- 
ploits of Danby and not ending with those of Pelham and Walpole, is, though 
undoubtedly instructive, far from being very edifying. The recrimination, however, 
would be as unjust ana inconclusive as tne charge in whose defence it would be 

The next dictum we have to examine is, that intellectual cultivation does not 
induce moral cultivation. To avoid misunderstanding, let us say from the beginning 
that we define intellectual cultivation not as anything exclusively confined to a sort 
of pure mathematical training, but a culture based principally upon what are some- 
times concisely termed " humanities." After this explanation, we may say that the 
dictum is both true and false. This is no paradox, but a description which may be 

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faithfully given of generaUzationfl, too wide if taken absolutely, and true only rela- 
tively with respect to certain times and circumstances. It would be hardly tenable 
to say, that monarchy wa« the best form of Government ; still the proposition could 
be maintained if applied to early states of society. Just in the same manner, if we 
denied our dictum with respect to all times and all states of society, the proposition 
would be far from being warranted by facts. For example, if we took those periods 
in the development of a society when morality did not exist separately, but was still 
absorbed in religion, it would be perfectly true to say that intellectual culture did not 
teach morality. Thus, during the early ages of Christianity, what intellectual train- 
ing there was would have be^ utterly insufficient to form the morale of its pupils. 
In those days nothing could have performed that task so well and so thoroughly as a 
religious education. History abounds with instances of such periods. There was a 
time when Judaism possessed its sole and best culture in the Mosaic books. There 
was a time when Hellenism had to look only to the theological poems of such men as 
Homer and Hesiod ; there was a time when Mahometanism depended for its civiliza- 
tion on the Koran alone. The next stage, however, of the progress of these societies, 
if they succeed in advancing to it, is one in which morality emancipates itself from its 
religious shackles and appears under other shapes and other forms. Such has been 
the case with English in common with all Western civilization. The Apostles and 
the Fathers are now superseded by poets and historians and philosophers. Not that 
these people have taken to preaching and inculcating directly and indirectly the 
moral precepts once contained in the Bible and its commentaries. The transformation 
takes place in a less demonstrative manner. The religious teaching slowly distri- 
butes itself in the shape of moral axioms and ideas, which in their tradition from 
posterity to posterity, instil themselves into the mind as its first principles. These 
first principles mould in after-life all your thoughts, your actions, and your utter- 
ances. The poet, the historian, the philosopher, cannot sing or write but on the 
condition of remaining true to this heritage which they receive. Ajid once you have 
a complete literature so throughly and unconsciously imbued with the highest moral 
teaching of the day, then religion has done its peculiar work, and intellectual educa- 
tion coincides with moral cultivation. In a recent lecture delivered at Cambridge, 
Professor Seeley forcibly points out the value of history in education as the school of 
statesmanship. With perhaps greater force and truth it may be said that, as a 
means of education, history, in conunon with other branches of literature, is, first and 
foremost, the school of morality. We may say, then, that the dictxmi that we laid 
down above is not true, if applied to an education which has for its principal instru- 
ment such a literature as we have described. And that English civilization is pos- 
sessed of such a literature will hardly be denied by impartial men. We are thus 
irresistibly led to admit that the competitive examinations of the Civil Service, in 
testing intellectual ability, at the same time efficiently tests the morale of the candi- 
dates, whether they be Europeans or natives. And this conclusion is powerfully 
corroborated in the case of natives by our experience of the effect of English education 
in Indian schools and colleges. Out of many authorities on the subject, I shall select 
only one. The late Director of Public Instruction, whose opportunities of observation 
were equal to his abilities to interpret them, says in one of his roports, — ^* In the 
college I have invariably found that students improve in trustworthiness and respec- 
tability, in direct ratio to their improvement as scholars." This testimony tallies 
exactly with our a pi tori reasoning. We may now conclude oiur examination of the 
only reason we can think of for the rejection of our scheme, with the unhesitating 
declaration that it is nothing but a tissue of subtle errors and plausible fallacies. 

To sum up the main points of this paper. I hope I have now succeeded in 
showing to you that the measure in progress through Parliament is of a most 
dangerous and pernicious character, that it is not the only expedient for affording 
faciUties for the admission of natives into the Civil Service of India, and that the 
present system can with perfect safety be extended for that purpose without destroy- 
ing its most characteristic features. And, moreover, the leading advocates of the 
competition system when they introduced it in the Act of 1853 were far from 
being unmindful of such a contingency as the present. They distinctly foresaw that 
the principle of competition woidd l>e applicable to natives as well as Europeans. 
Lord Macaulay was one of those who clearly realized this fact, and in closing this 
paper I cannot do better than quote to you his remarks <m the subject. He says, — 

No. 1, VoLV. F 

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" ^ It seems to me that this plan provides the best means that can be Imagined for 
effecting an object upon which much has been said and which I admit to be desirable 
— the gradual admission of natives to a share in the higher offices of Government. 
.... I can conceive nothing more unfortunate for the people of India than that you 
should put into the Civil Service a native because he is a native, if he is to be the 
last man in that service, a man decidedly inferior in attainments to all the other 
members of that service, and who would be looked down upon by his European 
colleagues. Above all, I cannot conceive anything more pernicious than the sugges- 
tion which has been made, that before you admit any native to the service at all, 
before any native has been an assistant collector or a judge, you should take some 
native and appoint him a member of the Legislative Council. That of all proposi- 
tions would seem to me least likely to promote the real benefit of the people of India. 
Under the proposed system, it would depend on the natives themselves, and upon 
them alone, at what time they should enter into the Civil Service. As soon as any 
native of distinguished parts should by the cultivation of English literature have 
enabled himself to be victorious in competition over European candidates, he would 
in the most honourable manner, by conquest, as a matter of right, and not as a mere 
eleemosynary donation, obtain access to the service. It would then be utterly im- 
possible for his European fellows to look down upon him ; he would enter the service 
in the best and most honoui-able way ; and I believe that in this mode, and this roovie 
alone, can the object which so many friends of the native population have in view, 
be attained in a manner at all satisfactory." Considering the time when these 
remarks were uttered, I cannot imagine a more forcible or a more eloquent commen- 
tary on the two measures compared in this paper for the admission of natives iuto 
the Civil Service. 

Dr. J. N. MENDogA said : — Mr. Chairman and Gentlemen, — Being as I am a 
devoted disciple of Esculapius, as we are sometimes called, and one, therefore, whose 
chief business of life is to feel the pulse and write prescriptions, I can hardly pretend 
to offer an opinion on a subject which requires some special study and research. 
Nor do I think it necessary for me thus to trespass upon your time and attention in 
view of the full and exhaustive manner in which the subject has been laid before the 
meeting. Nevertheless, as one not altogether unaccustomed to look beyond the pre- 
cincts of medicine and surgery, and having paid particular attention to the paper as 
it was being read, I feel bound to confess that the opinions and sentiments expressed 
therein ought certainly to command the cordial sympathy and concurrence of everyone 
present here to-day. (Applause.) The subject, as you know, is one of vital* im- 
portance ; and, considering the vast interests involved, I have no doubt will receive 
careful and serious attention from all who have the welfare of this country at heart. 
In conclusion, I need hardly say how deeply this Society is indebted to Mr. Phero&- 
shah for his interesting paper ; and as I remarked on the occasion of his first lecture 
before this Association, he deserves our best thanks as much for the happy choice 
of his subject as for the able and elaborate manner in which he has handled it. 

After a few remarks from Mr. Mahadeva G. Ranade, the debate was adjourned 
to a future day, to be appointed hereafter, on the motion of Messrs. Wagle and Vun- 
drawun Purshotum. 

A vote of thanks to Mr. Mehta was proposed by Mr. Wagle, and seconded by Mr. 
Thakardass Atmaram, and unanimously carried. 

After a vote of thanks to the Chair, the meeting separated. 

The adjourned meeting of the Bombay Branch of the East India Association for 
the discussion of Mr. Pherozshah M. Mehta's paper on Clause 6 of East India (Laws 
and Regulations) Act was held at the Eramjee Cawasjee Institute, on Wednesday, 
the 22nd June, 1870, at six o*clock p.m. 

On the motion of Messrs. Mehta and Kaikhosru N. Kabra, Mr. Muncherjee C. 
Murzban was called to the chair. 

Dr. J. N. MENDoyA then moved the adoption of the following resolutions : — 

1. That this meetmg, while grateful for the liberal spirit and generous intentions 
which have influenced the British Legislature in passing the East India (Laws and 
Regulations) Act, is of opinion that Clause 6 of the Act violates the integrity of the 

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principle of competition with respect to the GiTil Service of India, and is thereby 
calculated to deteriorate its high average of efficiency and trustworthiness. 

2. That in the opinion of this meeting, the clause is likely to lead to the perpe- 
tration of political jobbery. 

3. That it does not open the Civil Service of India to the natives "in the most 
honourable manner," in the words of the late Lord Macaulay, " by o^pquest, as a 
matter of right, and not as a mere eleemosynary donation." 

4. That the natives of India, while protesting against exceptional obstructions 
which are not shared generally, are, however, ambitious of obtaining admission to 
the Civil Service of their country in fair fight and open competition. 

5. That the Managing Committee of the Branch wiU be good enough to request 
the Council of the East India Association to take this subject into their serious con- 

The resolutions were seconded by Mr. Thakardass Atmaram in a speech of some 

Messrs. Janardhan, S. Gadgil, Shapoorjee B. Bharoocha, and Kaikhosru N. Kabra 
then addressed the meeting. The resolutions were carried. After a vote of thanks 
to the Chairman, the meeting separated. 


33 VioT. Chap. 3. 

An Act to make better provision for making laws and regulations 
for certain parts of India, and for certain other purposes relating 
thereto. [25th March, 1870.J 

TXTHEREAS it is expedient that provision should be made to enable the Govemor- 
YV General of India in Council to make regulations for the peace and good 
government of certain territories in India, otherwise than at meetings for the purpose 
of making laws and regulations lield under the provisions of The Indian Council's 
Act, 1861, and also for certain other purposes connected with the Government of 
India : 

Be it enacted by the Queen's most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice 
and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this present 
Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same, as follows : 

1. Every governor of a Presidency in Council, lieutenant-governor, or chief 
commissioner, whether the governorship, or lieutenant governorship, or chief com- 
missionersbip be now in existence or may hereafter be established, shall have power 
to propose to the Governor-General in Council drafts of any regulations, together 
with the reasons for proposing the same, for the peace and government of any part 
or parts of the territories under his government or administration to which the 
Secretary of State for India shall from time to time by resolution in council declare 
the provisions of this section to be applicable from any date to be fixed in such 

And the Governor-General in Council shall take such drafts and reasons into 
consideration ; and when any such draft shall have been approved of by the Governor- 
General in Council, and shall have received the Governor-General's assent, it shall 
be published in the * Gazette of India' and in the local 'Gazette,' and shall there- 
upon have like force of law and be subject to tlie like disallowances as if it had been 
made by tlie Governor-General of India in Coimcil at a meeting for the purpose of 
making laws and regulations. 

The Secretary of State for India in Council may from time to time withdraw such 

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power from any gOTernor, lieatenant-govenior, or obief oommiaaioiier, on whom it 
has been conferred, and may from time to time restore the same as he shall think fit. 

2. The Governor-General shall transmit to the Secretary of State for India in 
Conncil an authentic copy of every regulation which shall have been made under the 
provisions of this Act ; and all laws or regulations hereafter made by the Governor- 
General of India in Council, whether at a meeting for the purpose of making laws 
and regulations, or under the said provisions, shall control and supersede any regula- 
tion in anywise repugpiant thereto which shall have been made under the same 

3. Whenever the Govemor-G«neral in Oounoil shall hold a meeting for the 
purpose of making laws and regulations at any place within the limite of any 
territories now or hereafter placed under the administration of a lieutenant-governor 
or a chief commissioner, the lieutenant-governor or chief commissioner respectively 
shall be ex officio an additional member of the council of the Govemor-Greneral for 
that purpose, in excess (if necessary) of the maximum number of twelve specified by 
the said Act. 

4. Section forty-nine of the Act of the third and fourth years of King William 
the Fourth, chapter eighty-five, is hereby repealed. 

5. Whenever any measure shall be proposed before the Governor-General of India 
in Council whereby the safety, tranquillity, or interests of the British possessions in 
India, or any part thereof, are or may be. in the judgment of the said GU>vernor- 
General, essentially affected, and he shall oe of opinion either that the measure pro- 
posed ought to be adopted and carried into execution, or that it ought to be suspended 
or rejected, and the majority in council then present shall dissent from such opinion, 
the Governor-General may, on his own authority and responsibility, suspend or reject 
the measure in part or in whole, or adopt and carrj it into execution, but in every 
such case any two members of the dissentient majority may require that the said 
suspension, rejection, or adoption, as well as the fact of their dissent, shall be notified 
to the Secretary of State for Inaia, and such notification shall be accompanied by 
copies of the minutes (if any) which the members of the council shall have recorded 
on the subject. 

6. Whereas it is expedient that additional facilities should be given for the 
employment of natives of India, of proved merit and ability, in the Civil Service of 
Her Majesty in India : Be it enacted, that nothing in the " Act for the government 
of India," twenty-one and twenty-two Victoria, chapter one hundred and six, or in 
the *^ Act to confirm certain appointments in India, and to amend the law concerning 
the Civil Service there," twenty-four and twenty-five Victoria, chapter fifty-four, or 
in any other Act of Parliament or other law now in force in India, shall restrain the 
authorities in India by whom appointments are or may be made to oflaces, places, 
and employments in the Civil Service of Her Majesty in India from appointing aiw 
native of India to any such office, place, or employment, although such native shall 
not have been admitted to the said Civil Service of India in manner in section thirty- 
two of the first-mentioned Act provided, but subject to such rules as maybe from time 
to time prescribed by the Governor-General in CouncU, and sanctioned by the 
Secretary of State in (jouncil, with the concurrence of a majority of members present ; 
and that for the purpose of this Act the words ** natives of India " shall include any 
person bom and domiciled within the dominions of Her Majesty in India, of parents 
habitually resident in India, and not established there for temporary purposes only ; 
and that it shall be lawful for the Governor-General in Council to define and limit 
from time to time the qualification of natives of India thus expressed ; provided ^at 
every resolution made oy him for such purpose shall be subject to the sanction of 
the Secretary of State in Council, and shall not have force until it has been laid for 
thirty d&ja before both Houses of Parliament. 

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Sib BARTLB FEEKE, K.C.B., G.C.S.I., in the Chair. 
TTie following Paper was read by Mr. Dadabhai Naohoji : — 

On the Commerce of India. 

Thb commerce of India is one of the most important subjects that can 
engage the attention of the public of England. I do not think the 
audience before me needs to be told the reason why. They know well 
enough how the prosperity of this country, as of any other, depends 
chiefly upon its commerce, and how important it is to them that the vast 
continent of India, with its teeming population, should be opened up for 
their commercial enterprise. It is a calamity to India, and a great loss 
to this country, that the subject of the commerce of India is not fully 
considered by the public or press of England, and that even the 
merchants and mant^acturers do not give to it the attention it demands. 
I am constrained to say, after my residence in this country for fifteen 
years, that the knowledge of the public here about India is not only 
imperfect, but in some matters mischievously incorrect. But why should 
I blame the English public or others, when those who ought to know 
best, and upon l£e information famished by whom the public must de- 
pend, the past India House itself has made statements entirely at variance 
with facts ? I do not wish to blame anybody, but set it down with grief 
to the misfortune of India. The Parliamentary return, No. 75 of 1858, 
gives " A Memorandum (prepared at the India House) of the Improve- 
ments in the Administration of India during the last thirty years." This 
return, at page 11, gives a paragraph entitled " Greneral Prosperity." 
In the part referring to the commerce of India, after giving figures for 
exports and imports of India, at the interval of twenty-one years (from 
1834 to 1866) the paragraph ends, in relation to the commerce of India 
for these twenty-one years, with the strange words, " The great excess of 
exports above imports (of merchandise) being regularly liquidated in 
silver." It also states that .the exports of merchan^se increased 188 per 
cent., and imports 227 per cent., during the same twenty-one years. 

I cannot trouble you at present with several other fallacious state* 
ments in this paragraph. I confine myself at present to those I have 
mentioned about the trade of India. It is a wonder to me how this 
statement about the liquidation in silver of the excess of exports over 
imports could have issued from the India House. A return (No. 369) 
made by the India House itself, on Mr. Bright's motion, in the year 1863, 

No. 2, Vol. V. G 

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gives the total imports and exports of India. The total exports, accord- 
ing to this return, including all treasure for the first fifteen years (1834 
to 1850) out of the twenty-one to which the return of 1858 refers, are 
giyen as a little above 231,000,000/., and the total imports of India, 
including all treasure, a little above 163,500,000Z., leaving a difference of 
67,600,000Z. of excess of exports above imports, for which, neither in the 
shape of silver nor of any other goods, has there been any import what- 
soever into India. So far, therefore, for the first fifteen years* ^ regular 
liquidation in silver " for 67,500,000/. of excess of exports was simply a 
creation of imagination. 

Now, let us see about the remaining six years. The return (No. 3891 
of 1867) gives the total of exports, including treasure, about 125,600,000/., 
and the total of imports, including treasure, about 105,000,000/. These 
imports include the loan for railways remitted up to the year 1856. 
I take this remittance to be only 10,000,000/., as a low figure, as I 
cannot get from official returns the exact amount. Deducting this, and 
not malong any allowance for any remittances on account of public debt 
made during the same period, the total amount of imports is about 
95,500,000/., or "the excess of exports above imports" of about 
30,000,000/. which was not liquidated either in silver or in any other 
goods. Thus we have a total of about 97,000,000/. ; and allowing, to 
some extent, for the amount of public loans raised in England and remitted 
to India during the twenty-one years imder consideration, an '' excess of 
exports above imports " of. above 100,000,000/. which was never liqui- 
dated in silver or in other goods. To this must be added about 
30,000,000/. of profit on exports, thus making about 130,000,000/. for 
which India has received no return in imports. And yet the India 
House coolly told the English public, in the year 1858, that during the 
twenty-one years previous to 1856, " the great excess of exports above 
imports was regularly liquidated in silver." I appeal to you, gentlemen, 
to say whether there ever was a more misleading statement made ; and is 
it a wonder that the English public are indifferent to the complaints of 
India ? The India House would have been correct if it had said that 
the great excess of exports above imports of India, during the twenty-one 
years, amounting to above 130,000,000/., was retained for the benefit of 
England. Now, I would not have alluded to a statement made twelve 
years ago, were it not that I have seen its mischievous effects to the 
present day. So far as my reading goes, I have not come across a single 
statement in the subsequent Parliamentary returns which distinctly and 
directly corrects it, and in my conversation generally, except in very 
few instances, I have found that this misleading statement has led to the 
almost universal belief that India is rich and prosperous, when it is not 
so. No more have the imports, with all silver included, been equal to 
exports after 1856. Notwithstanding the so-much-talked-of wealth 
poured in during the American war, the total figures are, for 1856 to 
1869,* exports (including treasure), about 588,000,000/. ; imports (in- 
cluding treasure), about 545,000,000/. Out of these imports, about 
72,000,000/. (the total expended till end of 1869 being 82,000,000/., of 

♦ * Parliamentary Return,' 8891 of 1867, and 0. 184 of 1870. 

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which I have taken 10,000,000Z^ the total to 1856) are railway loans, about 
27,000,000/. are public loans raised in England, and about 16,000,000i * 
of registered debt of India, transferred to this country, leaving the actual 
imports in exchange for exports about 431,000,000Z. This gives an excess 
of exports above imports of about 157,000,000^. during the last thirteen 
years, which is not liquidated either in silver or in any other goods. Add 
to this the profits of the export, say about 60,000,000Z., making a total 
of above 210,000,000/., for whicii there is no commercial imports into 

Now, instead of a misleading statement, that the *' great excess of 
exports over imports was liquidated in silver," if the English public were 
told that during the past thurty-four years exports for about 260,000,000Z. 
have had no corresponding material return in imports, nor the ordinary 
commercial profits of these thirty--four years, to the extent of some 
90,000,0002., had been returned to India, its attention would be naturally 
directed to the strange phenomenon; for everyone knows that in the 
ordinary course of commerce every country gets a full return with some 
profit for its exports, and that it is simply impossible for any country to 
carry on such a commerce as that of India without being impoverished, 
unless special means are adopted to counteract the eviL 

I propose to consider, 1st, the real extent of the commerce of India ; 
2nd, tiie reason why it is extremely limited, notwithstanding the progress 
it has to some extent made ; 8rd, what suitable remedies should be adopted 
for such an unsatis&ctory state of afi^irs. First, we may see what the 
extent of the real commerce of India is. I take the latest year for which 
I can get returns. The table for exports from India, as given in Eetum C, 
184 of 1870, including treasure, gives the amount for the year 1868-9 
about 53,700,000Z., and imports, including treasure, about 51,000,000Z. 
Now, we must examine whether these figures represent the commerce of 
India. I have no doubt every gentleman here reads the little paragraph 
in the money articles of the daily newspapers, about the bills drawn by 
the Secretary of State for India. I would not undertake to say how many 
readers of tibat little paragraph understand its full significance, or care 
to do so. I am afraid the number is not large. The total of these bills 
for the last ofiicial year was estimated at about 7,000,000Z. What are 
these bills drawn for ? Certainly not for any commercial purpose. What 
is the operation of these bills ? It is simply this, that out of the pro- 
ceeds of the exports from India the Indian Secretary keeps 7,0O0,O00Z. 
here, and India receives no corresponding commercial import for the 
amount. In this manner, what are called *' the charges in England on 
the revenues of India " are paid, that is, India exports about 7,000,000Z. 
worth of produce to pay for these charges.f You will therefore see that 
out of the so-called exports of India, about 7,000,000Z. are not commercial 
exports at all. Next, in India there are about 2500 English civilians, 
covenanted and uncovenanted, about 5000 English military ofiicers, and 
some 60,000 soldiers. All these naturally remit to this country, for the 

♦ * Parliamentary Return * 258 of 1869. 

t The "charges on the revenues of India," disbursed in England, are, for 
1869-70, above 7,700,000/.; and those for 1868-69 about 7,350,000/. I put down, 
say 7,000,000/. Beturn 234 of 1870. 

6 2 

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education of their children, and for the support of their families and 
dependent friends, and bring with them their savings. The total of their 
pay is about 9,000,000Z., and I put down what an English friend, who 
ought to know well, tells me is a low estimate, about half for the remit- 
tances I have alluded to. There are^ besides, certain English goods 
especially wanted for the consumption of Europeans in l^dia. K I, 
therefore, take 5,000,000if. as the exports of India for all these purposes, 
to say nothing of remittances by non-ofOlcial Englishmen, such as bar- 
risters, solicitors, doctors, merchants, planters, &c., making up a large 
sum, I shall be found much under the mark. Thus, then, we have a total 
of about 12,000,000Z., out of the so-called exports, which do not form a 
part of the commerce of India at all, whatever else they may be. I can- 
not discuss what they really are, or what their significance is, before this 
Society. I may just tell you that Sir George Wingate calls this item the 
'' tribute " India pays to England ; or that another intelligent English- 
man calls it the " salary of England " for ruling over India. Be that as 
it may, one thing is clear, that these 12,000,000Z. are not a part of the 
commerce of the country, and for which there is no liquidation either 
in silver or any other goods. India must send out annually at* least 
12,000,000/. worth of produce, whether it will or no, without any corre- 
sponding commercial return. Besides the above two items, tiiere is 
another which strictly is not commercial. I mean the remittance of 
interest from India on railways, irrigation, and other such loans. I must 
not be misunderstood, however. I consider these loans as one of those 
things for which India is under special obligations to this country. I do 
not allude to this item in any spirit of complaint. Far from it. On the 
contrary, I always think of it with great thankfulness. It is a blessing 
both to the receiver and the giver. I only mean that the interest, even 
supposing it to be all earned by the railways, though forming a part of 
the exports of India, is not a part of the commerce of India. This item 
is about 4,000,000/., making altogether about 16,000,000/, of exports 
from India which are not commercial. The balance of the exp(M*ts repre- 
senting the real commerce of the country is therefor^ about 37,000,000/. 
for 1868-9. 

Let us now analyze the imports. The total is about 61,000,000/. 
We must deduct the following items as not commercial : — Eailway loan 
for the year, about 5,000,000/. ; irrigation. State railways, and other loans 
which I have not been able to ascertain, say about 2,000,000/. ; Gfovem- 
ment stores, about 1,600,000/. ; payment on account of the Abyssinian 
expedition, about 1,250,000/. ; leaving about 41,250,000/. as commercial 
imports. So we have roughly considered about 37,000,000/. exports, and 
41,000,000/. imports. This shows something like a national commercial 
profit of about 4,000,000/. But as, on the other hand, India has had to 
pay to this country 12,000,000/. for its administration, the real balance 
of India's profit and loss account is some 8,000,000/. on the wrong side 
for the year. 

Leaving the question of the nature and consequences of this balance 
alone for the present, we have this remarkable fact, that while the exports 
of the produce of the United Kingdom are nearly 6/. lOs. a head of 
population, of British North America about 3/. « head, and of Australia 

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about 192. a head, for 1868, those of India are soarcely 4«. a head, or 
altogether, includuig political and non-commercial remittances to this 
conntrj, about 5«. a head. Eren deducting the gold exports, the other 
exports of Australia are about IIZ. per head. 

I may remark here, that just as the India House liquidation in silyer 
of excess of exports is incorrect, so does its assertion of the increase of 
188 per cent, in exports, and 227 per cent, in imports, require explana- 
tion. From what I haye already said, yon may haye seen that a good 
portion of this increase is owing to causes other than commercial, viz. 
increase of political charges in England, of national debt, and the in- 
creasing remittances of official and non-official Europeans. 

The question is often asked, why India does not take largely of 
British manufactures? Why is it that, with a population of 200,000,000, 
there are only about 17,500,0002. worth of British manufactures, or less 
eyen than 2«. a head, exported to India, while Australia, with a popula- 
tion of less than 2,000,000, takes about 13,000,000^., or more than 6Z. a 
head, and British North America, with its population of about 4,500,000, 
about 5,000,000Z., or about 25«. a head ? Before I proceed to a discussion 
of this scantiness of the export of British manufactures into India, I 
must clear away two misapprehensions. On account of such misleading 
statements as those of the India House, and a quantity of silyer being 
actually imported into India^ it is a general impression here that India is 
a great sink for silyer, that there is great hoarding, and that it is rich. 
The fact is, first, that India has not imported as much silyer as the India 
House statement leads one to belieye; and secondly, that under the 
British administration, «ilyer has naturally become a necessary com- 
modity. The reyenue haying to be paid in cash, a great demand arose 
for coins, and silyer not being produced in the country, its importation 
became a necessity. Besides coins, it must also be remembered that, as ' 
in all coimtries, seyeral social customs require the use of a certain quan- 
tity of the precious metals. I am not at all here taking into considera- 
tion the withdrawal of the treasure from India that had taken place in 
the earlier times of the East India Company. And yet, see what the 
gross total amount of bullion is which India has retained during the whole 
period of the last seyenty years, from the commencement of the present 
century. I think you would hardly believe me when I say it is only 
about 34^.* a head. ' Conceiye, gentlemen, 34«. a head, not per annum, 
but in the whole course of seventy years, for all purposes, commercial, 
social, and political, for circulation, wear and tear, for remittances, for 
railway and other loans, and to fill up the drain of former periods — in 
short, for eyery possible purpose. 

Why, in the United Kingdom, for the last twelve years only, from 
1868 to 1869 (there, are no earlier returns for imports), you haye retained 
for your national uses nearly 30^. a head, besides leaying about 18,000,0002. 
in the Bank of England intact at the ends of 1857 and 1869. There 
may be some little hoarding by some men, as the means of inyestment 
and circulation in India are not yet developed ; but may I ask whether 
there is any gentleman now present who has not some hoarding about 

* Return 133 of 1864 and [C. 184] of 1870. 

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him of several pounds in his watches, pins, &c.? However, here is the 
whole quantity of bullion imported into India during seventy years, 
349. per head. Now, in discussing the question why India takes less 
than 2«., or about Is. 9d, a head of British manufactures, you will see 
that the general cry of large imports of silver being the cause is not 
correct. The wonder is that 34«. a head, received in the whole period of 
seventy years, could be sufficient for all necessary wants and wear. 

The second misapprehension which requires explanation is the notion 
that wages and prices have risen enormously, and that therefore India is 
very prosperous. This notion is not only an exaggeration, but it is also 
incorrect to a great extent. It would be impossible for me to discuss it 
to-night, as it would require a long time to do so clearly. I need simply 
say, what I think I am able to prove from actual facts and official docu- 
ments, that though there is some general rise in prices (not, however, to 
the extent usually supposed), it is not an addition to former sufficiency, 
but a return from a low ebb, to which it had gone down before, and that 
it only indicates some progress towards, but not actual, sufficiency, much 
less prosperity. There is much confusion of ideas on this subject For 
instance, while some writers point to rise in prices as a proof of pros- 
perity, the India House return, in the same paragraph to which I have 
already referred, speaks of " the cheapening of agricultural produce " as 
a matter to boast about. Now, the " enormous " or " unexampled " rise 
in prices or wages, about which so much noise is made by some writers, 
is no more true than that because there may be a few millionaires in 
London, therefore all Londoners are millionaires. The phenomenon is 
simply this, that in special localities, where railway and other public 
works are being constructed, money congests, and prices and wages for a 
time go very high, because, on account of imperfect communication, 
neither labour nor food is drawn there in sufficient quantity to equalize 
or moderate wages or prices. And because at some of Aiese special 
localities prices and wages rise very high, a general conclusion is hastily 
drawn, as if prices and wages had gone up enormously all over India. I 
shall give hereafter a few instances of prices, which will show that the 
notion of enormous general rise in prices is incorrect. 

I must now return to the question of the causes of the miserable extent 
to which the natives of India take of British manufacture. Do not, gen- 
tlemen, for a moment suppose that a native does not wish to put on a 
better coat — or rather a coat at all — if he can get it. You should seriously 
ask the question why India does not afford to English industry and en- 
terprise a field commensurate with its vast extent, population, and natural 
resources, though it is under your own control and administration. If 
this country could export of its produce only IZ. a head of India's popu- 
lation, it will be as much as you now export to all parts of the world. 

There is no question of the vastness and variety of India's resources. 
The number of principal articles it exports to this country is above fifty, 
many of them in great varieties, and some two or three dozen of minor 
importance. Much more can this number be increased. Why should 
not India alone supply to this country cotton, coffee, sugar, tea, silk, 
seeds, fibre, or anything pise, in any quantity wanted? The causes of 
this unsatisfactory state of affairs are various, both moral and material. 

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The moral causes I am sorry I camiot discuss before this Society ; I shall 
only mention them. As long as a people have no reasonable voice, or 
have only a farce of a voice, in the legislation and taxation, municipal or 
imperial, of their own country, it is simply impossible there can be that 
watchful care and attention to its wants which those most interested 
alone can give. So, also, as long as the people of a country ha^e no fair 
share in its administration, the powerful stimulus of patriotism and self- 
interest cannot come into action. Moreover, this want of a proper share 
for the native in the administration of the country produces one deplorable 
moral evil : as long as the English are ofi&cials, their mouths are shut 
All the wisdom acquired by their experience is of no use in guiding the 
natives. The moment they are non-o£icial they leave the country, and 
thus drain poor India of wisdom also. After coming to this country, the 
majority of these retired English ofi&cials forget India. Here, for instance, 
is Lord Lawrence. I congratulate the London School Board on such an 
acquisition, but there is also another side of the picture. What does 
this mean to India ? Here is wisdom of above thirty years, I suppose, 
acquired in India, and it is all now lost to it. When and how will India 
have its own Lawrences, its Freres, Trevelyans, &c., to guide the nation 
towards progress, enlightenment, and prosperity? This is most de- 
plorable for India that natives are not allowed a due share in the admi^ 
nistratLon, to acquire the necessary wisdom of experience to become the 
guiding spirits of the country. 

One more moral cause I would just touch upon, is the want of ade- 
quate education. Most sincerely thankful as I am for even the small 
extent to which education has progressed, I need simply say just now 
that education, both high English and professional for the hi^er classes, 
and vernacular and industrial for the mass, is far from being adequate, 
and yet Government are committing the political suicide of discouraging 
English education in Bengal. 

Having thus simply stated the three moral causes, I now come to the 
material. What, I wonder, would you say to the following fact ? I have 
been studying for the past six months tiie administration reports of the 
different Presidencies of India. From these and other sources (thanks 
to Mr. Grant Du£^ and other gentlemen in the India Office, for lending 
me any books I wanted), I have myseK worked out, as a rough outside 
estimate, the total gross produce of all cultivated land in the average 
good season of 1867-8 : — Central Provinces, North- West Provinces, 
Madras Presidency, Bengal Presidency, and Oudh, less than 40^. a head 
of their respective population ; Punjaub produced less than 50«. a head ; 
and the Bombay Presidency, with all the advantages of the late American 
war, railway loans, and three lines of railway converging into it, produced 
100«. ahead. But even Bombay, I am afraid, on account of disastrous 
losses during the last five years, is gradually lowering its level. The 
average of ^1 British India will be a good deal under 50«. a head per 
annum, or say 1«. a head a week. If I put 80«. a head per annum, or 
1«. 6(2. per week per head, as the total production of all kinds (agricul- 
tural manufjEUituring, mineral, &c.) of flie country, I shall be, I cannot 
help thinking, guilty of exi^geration or over-estimate. 

With this low production we must bear in mind that a larger pro- 

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portion goes for the consumption of the Europeans in India, of the 
higher and middle classes of natives, 12,000,000Z. a year are to be ex- 
ported to this country, and a portion is to be reserved for seed, and then 
we may ask how much of this Is, 6(2. a week a head could go to the share 
of the poor mass, from whose labour, after all, must all production be 
raised. Is not this one cause alone quite enough to explain the whole 
problem why India is such a poor and wretched customer of England ? 
Is it any wonder, then, that Lord Lawrence deliberately stated, in 1864, 
that " India is, on the whole, a very poor country ; the mass of the popu- 
lation enjoy only a scanty subsistence ; " and that Mr. George Campbell, 
in his paper on " Tenures of Land in India," published by the Oobden 
Club, quotes from an official authority a report made so late as 1869, 
about the Madras Presidency, as follows : — " The bulk of the people are 
paupers. They can just pay their cesses in a good year, and fail alto- 
gether when the season is bad. Bemissions have to be made perhaps 
every third year in most districts. There is a bad year in some one 
district, or group of districts every year." Lastly, I would refer to an 
incidental remark made in the Calcutta correspondence of * The Times,' 
published as late as the 12 th December last. It says : — ^' But an ordinary 
native can live comfortably on about 2d. a day. He only needs a few 
rags for clothing, a little rice, and pulse or bean, and * curry stuff.' " 

Now, I ask you, gentlemen, whether it is from such men, who are 
obliged to be satisfied with 2d. a day, a. few rags, and wretched hovels, 
that you can expect to raise 50,000,000Z. of annual revenue (nearly one- 
fourth of which has to be remitted to this country) ; or even 11. a head, 
or 200,000,000/. of commercial exports, receiving large imports of your 
British manufactures in return ? Pray do not suppose the native would 
not like to be better fed, clothed, and lodged. Such a supposition will be 
simply contrary to human nature and to fact. Let us examine a little 
more closely. Insufficient as the whole production is, and scanty as must 
be the share of it for the great bulk of the population, perhaps hardly 
Is. a head a week, the mischief is further aggravated by imperfect distri- 
bution, so that the plenty of any one part is not available for the scarcity 
or famine of another. The best test of this is the difference in the price 
of food in different parts. If wheat sold at 60s. in one part of this 
country, and 70«. or 80». in another part, I wonder how long tiiis Society, 
or the English public, would allow such a state of things to endure ? In 
Punjaub, in 1869, the average price in Delhi was 52 lbs. of wheat per 
rupee, while at Mooltan, 34 lbs. ; and at Peshawar, 30 lbs. 

In the Madras Presidency, in the year 1867-68, a good season year, 
at Cuddapa, the price of rice is 492 rupees per garce (9256J lbs.), at 
Vezagapatam it is 203 rupees, and Godavery, 222 rupees. In the North- 
West Provinces, for the month of June, 1868, as the month of average 
plenty, at Meerut, wheat is 54 lbs. for 1 rupee, but at Allahabad and 
Mirzapore only 34 lbs. In the Central Provinces, in 1867-68, an average 
good-season year, rice, at Hoosingabad is 5 rupees for 1 maund (80 lbs.), 
while at Eypore and Belaspore it is only 1 rupee; at Sumbulpore, 
1 rupee 2 annas. In the Bombay Presidency, for February, 1868, as a 
month of average plenty, at Dharwar, the price of jowaree is 84 lbs. for 
1 rupee, while at Thanna it is 27 lbs. per 1 rupee. Again, bajree at 

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Dharwar is 80 lbs. per 1 rupee, whUe at Dhoolia only 26 lbs., and 
at Broach and Thanna only 24 lbs. (These prices are taken from 
administration reports and the ' Bombay Qovemment Gazette.') 

In Bengal, the ' Calcutta Glazette ' gives, for June, 1868, average good 
time, what are described for rice of cheapest sort, the " ordinary prices 
at this season," and what do we see ? At Maunbhoom 50 seers or 100 lbs. 
for 1 rupee, and at Bancorah, 47 seers or 94 lbs. per rupee ; while close 
by, at Singbhoom, it is only 20 seers or 40 lbs. for 1 rupee ; at Patna, 
13 seers or 26 lbs. ; in the 24 Parrugnas, 16 seers or 32 lbs. 

But there is another deplorable test. 

Now, what better proof can you have than that when, in the year 
1861, while British India exported to the United Kingdom alone, at the 
distance of thousands of miles, more than 3,000,000 cwt. of rice, at about 
12«. a cwt. here, after paying all charges of freight, profits, &c., or at 
about 6«. to %8, a cwt. at the ports of shipment ; and to all parts of the 
world, grain worth 3,500,000Z., or say about 6,600,000 cwt., the North- 
West Provinces lost a quarter of a million of lives and immense property 
by famine. 

In the year 1866, the United Kingdom imported above 2,000,000 cwt. 
of rice from British India, at about 6«. to 8^. a cwt. at the ports of ship- 
ment; and all parts of the world imported grain from British India 
worth 5,260,000/., or say, above 10,000,000 cwt., while Orissa and Madras 
lost nearly a million of lives and millions worth of property. 

Again, the last two years, Eajpootana lost a milUon of lives, says the 
Calcutta correspondent, on the authority of Eev. Mr. Eobson, in ' The 
Times ' of 27th December last, while the exports of rice to the United 
Kingdom has been 4,000,000 cwt. in 1868, and I think as much in 1869 ; 
and of grain to all parts of the world worth 2,600,000/., or above 
5,000,000 cwt. each year. Thus, in India, for want of proper communi- 
cation, and therefore of easy distribution, famine destroys millions of 
lives and property. Good God, when will this end I 

The question may be put by you, what it is I want to suggest. I ask, 
gentlemen, only for some good English common sense, both political and 
economical, that common sense which destroyed monopolies and corn- 
laws, upset the mercantile theory, and established free-trade ; and I trust 
the desire of Englishmen, which is no less mine, and I believe of all 
educated and thinking natives, that British rule should endure long, 
would be &irly accomplished — a blessing to India and a benefit to 
England. Like the causes, the remedies I wish to be applied are also 
moral and material. About the moral remedies, the statement I have 
already made of the causes suggests also the remedies. There are. Sir 
John Shore said eighty years ago, certain " evils inseparable from the 
system of a remote foreign dominion ; " and I say that these evils must 
be counteracted if that foreign dominion is to endure, and be based on 
the contentment and loyally of the people. These evils can be stated in 
four words, '^ material and moral drain." The first I have already shown 
to be at present 12,000,000Z. a year. The moral one is that of the wisdom 
of administration brought over to this country on the retirement of every 
English official, to whom alone both practical legislation and higher 
administration are chiefly confined. These two drawbacks political 

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common sense requires should be remedied, or the people cannot be 
satisfied. It is no use thwarting nature, however strong your arm may 
be. Nature will ayenge eyery departure from truth and justice. Thus 
simply touching on the moral remedies, I come at once to the material 
ones. The yery first question suggests itself. Why should India have to 
remit 12,000,000Z. a year to this country ? This, to a certain extent, is 
inevitable. If India is to be regenerated by England, India must make 
up its mind to pay the price. The only thing I have to say is, that 
England, on its part also, should act justly towards India ; the financial 
relations between the two countries should be equitably adjusted. No 
unreasonable burdens should be imposed on India because it is at your 
mercy ; and the revenues of India should be administered with economy, 
wisdom, and the sense of responsibility of a great trust. I appeal to the 
conscience of English statesmen and thinkers to give a careful consider- 
ation to this subject. Here, however, I must leave this point, hoping 
that England will do justice to India in this matter. 

The other, and still more important material remedies, I must discuss 
at some length, as falling within the province of this Society. It is again 
a little economical common sense that is required. The most obvious 
remedy for the very poor production of the country, and its extra-political 
wants, is to increase production and facilitate distribution. It is no dis- 
covery of mine. Irrigation to increase production, and cheap communi- 
cation are the crying wants of a country like India. These re^ct upon 
each other. Irrigation will supply trafi&c for communication. Cheap 
communication will re-act by stimulating production, opening up new 
markets, and equalizing distribution. This' certainly sounds very com- 
mon-place, and an oft-told tale, but it is this common-place remedy upon 
which the material salvation of India depends, and it cannot be told too 
often till it is accomplished. Well, you may say the Indian Grovemment 
don't deny this. I grant they are as loud in their acknowledgment of 
this necessity as anyone else. Then where is the hitch ? That is just 
the question. 

In order to avoid confusion and save time, I give you at once my own 
views, without entering into a discussion of the present policy of Govern- 
ment. The expenditure on public works may be divided into two sorts — 
on repairs and on original works. For repairs, by all means pay from 
the revenue, for it would be unjust to saddle posterity with any debt for 
them. The "original works" are divided by Gfovernment into "ordinary'* 
and "extraordinary." Ordinary are those which do not pay directly, 
such as barracks, buildings for civil administrations, and common roads. 
These do not bring direct returns certainly, like railways, but repay 
indirectly, in the saving in rent, and in many other ways. 

Now, nobody will contend that these works are only useful for the 
day, and that posterity, or even one or two generations aiter the present 
can have no interest in them. Is it just, then, not to say anything of the 
want of economical common sense, that the present generation, so little 
able to bear the burden, should be pressed to fumi^ the whole means, 
without any distribution of the burden with the next one or two genera- 
tions ? I maintain that Government should adopt the just as well as the 
economical policy of distributing the burden of these ordinary works 

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over Bay fifty years or two generations by means of terminable loans. By 
adopting thiis policy, the other most injurious effects of stopping works from 
time to time, according to the condition of the revenue, will be avoided. 
What is of iJie utmost importance is, that these works once decided upon 
should be carried out vigorously, and completed as soon as possible. I 
repeat, then, that I ask fbr only common sense in this matter. When a 
large load is to be raised, a common, imintelligent labourer tries to raise 
it directly by his hands, an intelligent labourer tries a lever, and a man 
of knowledge uses a system of pulleys or some machinery. What is the 
whole secret or aim of all mechanical science? Simply to distribute 
weight. Use, I say, the same common sense in financial matters. Use 
suitable financial machinery, and distribute the weight. Don't waste 
time, energy, and means in trying to raise the heavy load directly. 

It looks almost ridiculous before an English audience to insist on 
this, but the Indian Government somehow or other does not do this. 
The mischief of this policy of making revenue pay at once for the ordinary 
original works is threefold — uncertainty, delay, and the consequent waste 
in tiie works themselves ; the intolerable pressure of taxation upon the 
people, and their dissatisfaction; and lastly, what is still worse, the 
withdrawal of so much capital, which at present is very dear, and in- 
sufficient for the ordinary wants of the production and commerce of the 
country, Government using capital wortii 9 per cent, and upwards, when 
it can easily get the same for 4 or 5 per cent., causing thereby to a poor 
country like India a serious loss, and shutting out England from safe 
investments in a country which is under its own control. Paying for 
these ordinary works from revenue, or from terminable loans, makes the 
whole difference to the people between being crushed by a load or carry- 
ing it with the greatest ease. It must be also borne in mind that any 
increase in the communications of the country, and the better attention 
to the wants of the country, will make the future generation better able 
to bear greater burdens than the present. 

I next come to extraordinary public works, such as railroads, irrigation 
works, canals, &c. In the case of these works. Government has fortu- 
nately adopted the policy of borrowing ; but somehow or other, there is 
some hesitation in going vigorously and boldly into the matter. 

The hesitation for borrowing is grounded mainly, as far as I can make 
out, on one reason. It is said England^s tenure in India is uncertain, 
and that if, after England lent a large sum, she should have to leave 
India, she may lose her loans. This is a very fair question, and must be 
fiedrly discussed. Now what is the best guarantee the English can have ? 
As a native of India, I may answer, tibe loyalty and affection of the 
people. But as Englishmen, you may say, " Well, we fully appreciate 
loyalty and gratitude ; but after all, it will not be prudent to depend 
upon that guarantee alone." Well, then, I ask, what is the best tiling 
you can have ? Can you have anything surer than a suficiently strong 
English army? And if by the same policy which may enable you to 
have a strong army, you can also secure the loyalty and gratitude of the 
people, how much more will your security be increased. How can you 
have a sufficiently large English army without a sufficiently large revenue, 
and how can you have a large revenue unless the people are able to pay 

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it, and pay it without feeling crashed by it ? I^ on the one hand, the 
present political drain continues, and the country is not helped to deyelop 
its resources, the result is evident. The people must get poor, and 
revenue must diminish. If revenue must diminiBh, you cannot provide 
for a sufficient military expenditure, the guarantee for your rule is im- 
paired, and still more so by the discontent of the people. On the other 
hand, if the Government went boldly and vigorously into the prosecution 
of all necessary public works li)y sufficient cheap loans, the production 
and commerce of the country and the ability of &e people to pay taxes 
will increase, Government will be able to raise with ease larger revenue, 
and will be able to keep up the necessary strength of the army, the 
security by which will be fcurther enhanced a hundredfold by the con- 
tentment and loyalty of the people. 

The most absolute wants of any country, in the undeveloped condition 
of India, are irrigation and railroads, canals, and other cheap communi- 
cations. Even now, the only or chief bright spot in the administration 
of the past fifteen years, for which Government claims, and justly receives, 
the greatest credit, for which India is most thankful to the English 
public, and which has opened a hopeful day for it, is, even with all the 
waste and jobbery, the railways, canal, and irrigation works already built 
by English loans. I beseech, therefore, that Government should pursue 
with vigour this hopefiil path, for on this alone do the material salvation 
of India, and the strength and benefit of English rule depend. There is 
one more question in connection with loans which requires a fair discus- 
sion. It is the opinion of many that the loans should be raised in India. 
The reasons assigned are, either the fear of uncertain tenure of English 
rule, or that India may not have to remit interest to this country. The 
first, I have already answered, is suicidal. With regard to the second 
reason, I say, if India is able, by all means raise the loans there. I am 
very glad that Government have succeeded in inducing some of the native 
princes to lend money to build railways. But I have shown you already 
that India does not at present produce enough for its ordinary wants, 
much less can it save or spare capital for these loans. The very fact 
that capital is worth 9 per cent, ordinary interest in India shows its 
insufficiency, even for its very limited commerce. 

The idea of making India raise loans is like ordering water to run 
up a hill. Baise loans in India, the result will be still the same. Water 
will gravitate to the' lowest leveL Beyond a certain amount needed in 
India for investments of trusts, retired persons, banks, unenterprising 
zemindars, &c., the rest will be bought up by this country. Be this as 
it may, the test is a very easy one. Let Government open loans at 
4 per cent., both in India and England, at the best prices capitalists 
would give for this interest, and in such a way that the notes be easily 
negotiable both in India and England, and that the interest may be also 
obtainable in both countries without unnecessary trouble ; and the natural 
laws of capital will settle the rest. If the English public have confi- 
dence enough, and if the 4 per cent, sterling loan is now at a premium, 
why should the Indian Government not allow India the benefit of these 
loans, and the capitalists of England an investment under the control of 
the British themselves ? It is said that if Grovemment resorted to loans. 

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the future debt of India would be very large. But why such should be 
the case I cannot understand. As to the ordinary works, the very fact 
of terminable loans means contributions from the revenue, and limit to 
the duration of the loan, the great advantages being ^' distribution of 
weight." With regard to extraordinary works, they are paying works, 
and even if they fail in paying the whole interest, tike prosperity of the 
country will easily yield increased resource to make up for any deficit of 
interest. All progressing countries are building their public works by 
loans, and come to this country for borrowing, while poor India, with all 
her material and moral drawbacks, and struggling for her very existence, 
is tortured by all sorts of vexatious local and imperial cesses and taxes. 

When I ask Government to build the works vigorously themselves, 
I should not be misunderstood as being in any way against true private 
enterprise ; in fact, the principal articles of present export, except cotton 
and rice, owe their production mostly to English private enterprise. 
Who are the producers of the greater part of tea, coffee, indigo, silk, &c., 
and even in the case of cotton, how much is owing to Mandiester con- 
stantly knocking at the door of the India House to build roads, canals, &c. ? 
If English capital is encouraged in a reasonable manner, to open up new 
sources of production, what great benefit may be the consequence, both 
to England and India. England's benefit would be double ; the profits 
of the investors will ultimately come over here, and consumption of 
British manufactures will be extended, with the greater ability of the 
natives to purchase them. The administration reports of the different 
governments give us figures of many millions of acres of culturable waste 
land. If Government only did the ordinary duty of opening up these 
lands by providing necessary communication, and, wherever practicable, 
necessary irrigation, what a vast store of treasure would be brought out, 
and what prosperity bestowed upon poor India. 

Natives also would do a great deal, if properly guided and encouraged. 
I am afraid encouraging natives to look out does not seem to be much in 
the line of officials. I know of an instance, in which one Mr. Eustomjee 
Bomanjee, a Parsee of Bombay, has been running about for two years 
from collector to commissioner, and from one official to another, to be 
allowed to undertake, on his own account, an irrigation project near his 
property in Bassein, without, I fear, any result. I do not kiow whether 
anything has been lately decided. I don't wish to blame anybody. I 
cannot say what Government's ideas in the matter may be, but such 
dancing as this persevering gentleman has had is, I think, sufficient to 
discourage anybody. Moreover, scanty, if any, encouragement is given 
to natives to enter the engineering service. 

I would just sum up the remedies I have been discussing in a few 
words of Lord Lawrence, as Commissioner of Punjaub, and which are 
quite as applicable now for all India : — " Let means of export, the grand 
desideratum, be once supplied, everything will follow. . . . Then money 
will be abundant, prices will recover their standard, and the land revenue 
will flourish."* 

Before finishing the discussion of these remedies, I must urge one on 

* * Select Government of India,' No. xviii., p. 30. 

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the Engliflh pnblio, which I sincerely believe to be an important one. 
The great misfortune of India, and conseqnentlj a great loss to England 
also, is that its real condition is not known here, and very little cared 
for. Every institution in this coontry has its independent body or 
society to watch its interest ; for India, also, some such machinery is 
absolutely necessary. The India Beform Society, under the leadership 
of Mr. Bright, aided by the exertions of Mr. J. Dickiason and others, did 
at one time good service. Latterly, the East India Association has been 
formed for this purpose. I think it very essential, if England is to derive 
the full benefit of its Indian Empire, and be at tiie same time a blessing 
to it, that this East India Association, or some such body, whose object 
is to make India better known here, and to watch all Indian and English 
interests, be well supported by the English public. The result of my 
fifteen years' observation in this countiy is, that some such institution is 
absolutely necessary, or England cannot do its duty to India, and poor 
India must continue to suffer &om the want of an independent watchful- 
ness of the administration over it. I can only appeal to the existence of 
this very Society, and of many others, without which I do not know how 
much good would have remained undone, and how much mischief would 
have continued unchecked. *At present the want of unity among the 
different interests produces its usual consequences of weakness and failure. 
As each interest, such as tea, or coffee, or cotton, or manufacturers, 
planters, commercial, civil or military, or any other, English or native, 
attacks the India Office in its small detachment, it is easily repulsed. 
But should all these interests combine together, and with the strength of 
the union of a powerful body, propose well-considered measures calcu- 
lated to be beneficial to all interests, the India Office, less able to resist 
such action, will most probably welcome it to aid in its administration, 
and Parliament will be better guided in any efforts it may make, &om 
time to time, to do its duty to India. 

Now, gentlemen, whatever attention you may think my address worth, 
I am sure that on one point we should all agree, — that the subject of the 
commerce of India is one of those most important ones for the attention 
of the English public, whether for duty to India or for their own interest. 
You are aware that the East India Association has resolved to petition 
for a select committee of Parliament, and that Mr. Fawcett, having last 
session moved for a committee, the Bight Hon. the Prime Minister has 
shown a disposition to be favourable to the motion when made this 
session. I sincerely trust the Council of the Society, in the way that 
may seem most suitable to them, will help in asking for the committee, 
and in getting it to institute a searching inquiry into the great questions 
why India's commerce is so miserably small, and not commensurate with 
its vast resources, extent, and population. Is it correct or not that the 
total production of the country is, with all the progress said to be made, 
yet so wretched as Is, 6d., or say even 2«., per week per head; and, if so, 
is such a state of affairs creditable to British administration ? Axe the 
British rulers practically adopting a policy which would justify their 
declarations in the report of the material and moral progress for 1868-69, 
that ''the State has now publicly announced its responsibility for the 
life of the least of its subjects," or the noble sentiment expressed by 

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Lord Mayo, ^' The coils that she (England) seeks to entwine are no iron 
fetters, bnt the golden chains of affection and of peace " ? Will the next 
ten years be free from the heartrending, destructive famines of the past 
decade; and cannot the people of India be rendered so contented and 
loyal as to make Eussia's ambition for the conquest of India a mere 
dream to be laughed at ? 

In submitting my views at present, and asking the help of this power- 
ful Society in obtaining and utilizing the select committee, nothing is 
further from my mind than any hostile feeling to the Indian Grovemment 
both at home and in India. I only desire to see the right administra- 
tion of the country, and I wish to point out that, just like all the interests 
of this country itself, those of India also require intelligent, independent 
investigation by select conmiittees of Parliament at reasonable intervals, 
and the watchMness of some independent, well-organized body. The 
Prime Minister himself has given the strongest reason last session : — 
^ And the fact, which we must all deplore, that it is not easy to secure 
adequate attention within these walls to Indian affedrs, is an additional 
reason for having a committee to inquire into the matter." 

It is, gentlemen, my deep conviction that the future elevation of the 
200,000,000 of the people of India cannot be in better hands than those' 
of tiie British nation. I only beseech you to do the good which is in 
your power, both to yourselves and to India, crowned with the blessings 
of a sixth of the human race. 


Mr. Andrew Cassbls said the very earnest speech which had just 
been delivered by so intelligent a native of India, who, to the well-known 
sagacity of his race in all matters connected with trade, unites the expe- 
rience gained during fifteen years' residence in this country, deserved the 
greatest attention ; and he very cordially agreed with him upon many 
points, deploring, with him, the ignorance that was still so prevalent in 
England respecting India, and the little interest taken in Indian subjects 
by those who ought to lead public opinion, as might be seen by the way 
in which the benches of the House of Commons were deserted when any 
subject affecting our Eastern Empire was brought before Parliament. 
Some fallacies had been pointed out in certain returns laid before Par- 
liament, some years ago, by Mr. Melville. It was, of course, impossible, 
speaking without book, to check the figures given ; but that there were 
periods when the exports from India largely exceeded the imports, was 
proved, he thought, by the fact, which was very strongly impressed upon 
his mind, that during the ten years ending in April, 1866, the imports of 
bullion into India amounted, in round numbers, to 180 millions sterling. 
He presumed, however, that Mr, Dadabhai Naoroji's object in drawing 
attention to these figures was to establish the fact that England drew a 
large sum annually from India without making any tangible return, and 
that India was thereby impoverished ; and this was, no doubt, a fact upon 

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which a great deal of misapprehenBion existed. But what had England 
and Englishmen done in return ? They had given India security of life 
and property, civilization, and the blessings of what, with all its defects, 
must be called a good government. Even in Mr. Dadabhai Naoroji's 
own time, how much had been done ! Bemember the lawlessness and 
miforule that prevailed in Oudh, the Punjaub, and Scinde twenty -five years 
ago. Even if the amount drawn by England from India could correctly 
be called a tribute, tiien he would say never before had a conqueror made 
so great a return to a land gained by conquest. He quite agreed with 
what had been said about the expenditure on public works, and had lost 
no opportunity, public or private, of stating his opinion, that the policy 
of paying for even what were called ordinary works out of revenue was a 
mistake. It was not fair and just that barracks, buildings for civil admi- 
nistration, and common roads, which would benefit coming generations, 
should be entirely paid for by the taxpayers of to-day. It would be 
much more equitable that the cost of these works should be spread over 
a certain number of years, and be paid by terminable loans. During the 
last few years, there had been deficits on the Indian budgets amounting 
to upwai^ of six millions sterling, but of these, three-and-a-half millions 
could be accounted for by the expenditure on barracks alone. In order 
to cover these deficits of our own creation, the people of India were 
exasperated by the imposition of unnecessary taxes, especiaUy an income- 
tax (the most odious of all taxes in their sight) equivalent to Id, in the 
pound sterling. At the same time, the army was cut down to such a low 
state, that in any time of danger uneasiness was created. Many useful 
works could not be undertaken. At the same time, while everyone 
must see the policy of encouraging the cultivation of agricultural pro- 
ducts in India, export duties were still retained, which in principle were 
altogether indefensible. Again, it had been truly said that loans should 
be raised in England as well as in India ; and it certainly seemed very 
strange that semi-bankrupt States, like Turkey and Egypt, should get 
money from this country, that we should lend to States whose chronic 
condition was one of revolution, like Peru, and yet we should virtually 
shut out our own great Eastern Empire from the market. If the reason 
were, as had been stated, the fear that India would one day be lost, and 
that when that evil day came the less we had to lose the better, all he 
had to say was, that the present system was best calculated to bring 
about the very consummation which was dreaded. He could not refrain 
from expressing his regret that the Secretary of State did so little for 
Indian trade; for instance, for the last two or three years Lancashire had 
been urging upon Government the expediency of appointing a Board of 
Agriculture in India, and it was believed the thing would have been done 
— but it had not been done. HaK-a-dozen under-gardeners had been 
sent out from Eew, and that effort seems to have exhausted the energies 
of the Indian Board for the time. Yet it was very necessary to encourage 
production in India in every possible way, even considering only the 
pounds, shillings, and pence side of the question. At present, ^e imports 
of India about equalled the exports, and the consequence was that the 
rate of exchange had fallen between the two countries to what might be 
called a bullion rate ; and, bearing in mind that the Secretary of State 

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for India had to draw largely on India, the drawings in 1870 amounting 
to no less a sum than nine millions sterling, and that many persons in 
the services and in trade in India had to make large remittances to this 
country, and that eyery fall of a farthing in the rate of exchange repre* 
Sented a loss of 1 per cent, to the State, on the one hand, and to private 
remitters, on the other, it would be seen at once how very desirable it 
was that everything possible should be done to keep the exports of India 
in excess of her imports. Attention had also been drawn to the very dis- 
tressing fact, that while one part of India was exporting rice to Europe, 
in another portion of the empire hundreds of thousand were starving. 
This was, no doubt, most distressing, but he did not quite understand 
whether Mr. Dadabhai Naoroji desii^ that Government should prohibit 
the exportation of rice. If so, he had been studying political economy 
in a very old-world school. Of course, what was required was to open 
up communication thoroughly by means of roads and railways, and a 
good deal had been done lately in that way. When all obstacles to trade 
were removed, demand would bring forward supplies of food before the 
point of actual want was reached. It must not be forgotten that the 
revenue at present drawn from the duty on opium, amounting to between 
6,000,0002. and 7,000,000?. sterling, was a most precarious one, and might 
one day fail us altogether ; and he could not help thinking that Eng- 
land had treated this question unwisely. It seemed to him the high 
duties levied on the drug represented an unworthy compromise between 
our sense of what was morally wrong and a care for material interests. 
England ought to wash her hands of the opium trade altogether, if she 
came to the conclusion that it was morally wrong to touch it ; but, on 
the other hand, if she did not come to that conclusion, the duties ought 
to be lowered, and the cultivation of it encouraged, so as to discourage 
the growth of the poppy in China. He did not see why it should be 
treated in a different way to any other agricultural produce, especially as 
it appeared to him, speaking generally, that the baneful influence of 
opium lay in the abuse and not in the use of the drug. However that 
might be, this question would some day press itself very seriously on 
the public attention. Again, he could not help thinking, from states 
ments which reached him from India, that the day was not far distant 
when it would be found necessary, in the interests both of the State and 
of the people, to inquire into the present position of the so-called '* per- 
petual settlement " in Bengal, with a view either to repurchasing the 
rights of the zemindars, or to devise means of making iliem contribute 
much more largely thtm they did at present to the necessities of the 
State. It was a great mistake that, made by Lord Comwallis eighty years 
ago. There were now very often three or four middle-men between the 
zemindars and the wretch^ cultivator of the soil, each one screwing a 
profit out of the land, which produced a rent of four or five millions 
sterling only to the Government, whereas it ought to produce fifteen or 
sixteen millions. He would not do more than allude to this subject on 
such an occasion, but it seemed to him that the only thing to be looked 
to in India in ^ture to support the revenue was that which could be 
obtained most equitably and fsdrly from the land. An Indian Associa- 
tion had been suggested, which would, no doubt, do a deal of good ; but 
No. 2, Vol. V. H 

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it was in Parliament that the canse of India had to be defended ; and he 
had often wished that the electors in Lancashire, a county which was so 
largely interested in India, wonld make it a sine qad non with their repre- 
sentatiyes that they should attend to Indian affiurs. 

Mr. Hydb Clabkb said it must have been with great pleasure that 
the meeting had witnessed tibat eyening, almost for the first time, a 
native of India pleading the canse of that country, not in one of its own 
languages, but in a foreign language, although with such ability that he 
had abready touched the hearts of his audience. Still, that was only the 
greater reason why more caution should be exercised in discussing 
the subject. They had heard that India wanted advocates, but how could 
this be said when she had an advocate so eloquent as Mr. Dadabhai 
Naoroji himself^ exercising an advocacy which his ancestors could never 
have done, even in India itself — an advocacy which would not be without 
its impression on the people of England nor on those of India. What 
he had said, however, must be carefully and calmly weighed, in order 
that it might exercise a good and not an evil influence on the interests 
of India. It might be so weighed in England, but what influence would 
such a discourse exercise when it reached India? The paper was pro« 
fessedly on the commerce of India, but it was really a discussion on the 
government of India, and the benefit which the natives of India received 
from it. On such a subject public attention ought not to be drawn away 
by the eloquence of the speaker, who had, amongst other things, remarked 
that when the people of this country were roaming about as naked 
savages, India was in a state of civilization. That was a mere rhetorical 
phrase. It might or might not be in the pages of history, for anything 
he or anybody knew, that at a time in long past ages, when England was 
in a high state of civilization, the population of Lidia was in a state of 
savagedom ; but without revelling in the realms of imagination, the two 
countries must be looked at as tiiey were at present In England the 
savages were few, but the hills and plains of Lidia teemed with savagesi 
kept in a state of barbarism by the oppression of the natives of India 
themselves, but they were being liberated from that barbarism and raised 
in the scale of civilization by the exertions of Englishmen. He would 
ask the Chairman, as one of the administrators of that great country, to 
bear testimony to what had taken place under his own eyes, where the 
people, whose ancestors were in a savage state, were being raised up to 
take a position side by side with their friend who had just addressed 
them, to exercise the same noble advocacy. Under these circumstances 
the public mind must not be led astray, but must look to the known facts 
upon the subject. He would not then quaiTel with the figures which had 
been laid before them, although unfortunately the tables from which they 
were taken had not been given, but simply the broad results, which were 
very liable to mislead. A great deal had been heard about dates and 
figures during seventy years, and what the quantity of silver imported 
into India during seventy years amounted to, viz, 846. per head. That 
was spoken of as a very appalling figure, and it was intimated that 
through some defect in the Indian government the natives were in 
that condition. But what was the population on which that average 
had been taken ; and how had the silver and other bullion been distri- 

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bated in that time ? In a short period, ending in 1866, no lesfi tlian 
180 millions, as had been stated by lAf. Cassels, were imported into 
India, showing therefore that this mass of figures ought to be separated 
from that long beadroll which had been referred to, in order to ascertain 
its actual bearing npon this subject. Such figures could not be followed 
in an oral discussion, hardly even when they were in print before one, 
and when these figures come to be thoroughly examined, it would, he 
belieyed, be found not to bear out the inferences which had been drawn 
from them ; for, after all, there were certain broad tests on questions of 
this kind which must be conclusive. For instance, he would call atten- 
tion to the state of afiairs nearer home, which illustrated the case. The 
inequalities had been spoken o^ and the very depressed state of the popu- 
lation, and it had been intimated that India was going to ruin. They 
had heard the same thing with regard to Ireland, and he (Mr. Clarke) 
had been forcibly struck with the resemblance between India and Ireland 
in some respects. * It had been stated that the average wages in India 
was about 3^. per day, but, even within his own time, the rate of wages 
in Ireland was only 4<2. or 5(2. per day ; but, notwithstanding that, Ire- 
land had been advancing within the hust few years, and India itself was 
also advancing. No doubt there were the inequalities that had been 
spoken of, but they arose from the very reason assigned, vk. that in 
some parts, where communication had been carried out, and large opera- 
tions had been conducted, the rate of wages had risen, while in other 
parts they were stationary. Of course, it must be so in the nature of 
things ; and the broad question to be considered was. What was the con- 
dition of India? and on this broad question of political economy it 
appeared to him that Mr. Dadabhai Naoroji's skill had, to some extent, 
fiuled him, through having omitted some elements of the question. In 
truth, for the purpose of las paper, he had treated this as a simple com- 
mercial matter — a question of imports and exports of India — stating that 
the exports were larger than the imports, and intimating that India 
expended at least ten millions a year, with no benefit to itself ; but he 
had here mixed up the question of commerce with that of political results, 
and in political arithmetic 2 and 2 did not always make 4. He had 
intimated that this ten or twelve millions went in utter waste. On the 
one side he had put down so much cotton spun by English hands, so 
much manufactures produced by England and English intelligence, but 
he did not give credit to this country for that very portion of flie expen- 
diture which had been spent on military purposes of which he spoke. 
That was as pure a residt of the hand-labour of this country for the 
benefit of India as any number of million yards of cotton goods that 
could be supplied. Nay, it was more, for India might supply itself with 
these textile fabrics, but it was England alone, as he had himself con- 
fessed, that could maintain the balance between the different races of 
India, and enable them to persevere in the course of advancement and 
civilization in which they were maintained by this country. We were 
bound, therefore, to put down this blood and bone, contributed for the 
service of India, as a most important item in the account ; but there was 
another item, and that was the brain famished to India, in the persons of 
those great statesmen to whom so high a tribute had been paid. After 

H 2 

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all, therefore, the result was one of the progress of India. If, for instance, 
we went back to any former period, say 100 years ago, it wonld be found 
that the exports and imports at that time bore a very small proportion to 
their present amounts ; and although many of the natives of India were 
in a state of great degiadation and bitter poverty, their general condition 
must have been advancing during that period. The natives of India 
were spoken of as if they were suffering from some common cause, and 
attention being called to these wofal instances of &mine, a picture had 
been drawn at which he was surprised. Had any Englishman used the 
words which Mr. Dadabhai Naoroji had used he should not have been 
astonished ; but that one of the most intelligent teachers of India should 
put before a meeting such a picture, stating that rice was exported largely 
from Burmah, while at the same time other portions of India were suf- 
fering from famine, implying a great charge against this country,, was 
something like a mistake which a very slight acquaintance with geography 
would be enough to correct. India, like Europe, contained countries 
widely separated from each other, and what had been referred to was no 
more than had taken place in Europe, and was actually taking place at 
this moment, for there were portions of France now suffering from the 
direst famine, whilst other portions of Europe were exporting grain. 
Means of distribution might be wanted, and they would have to be pro- 
vided, but England was not to be taxed with the death of these natives 
as altogether arising from the method of its government. An appeal had 
been made to the common sense of Englishmen, and that no doubt must 
be exercised, but not in the manner which had been suggested, viz. a 
transfer of the government of India to the natives, for that was what it 
amounted ta Before this was done it must be proved, not that there 
were such defects in India as had been pointed out, but that 100 or 20O 
years ago the whole of India was in a state of great prosperity, that the 
condition of each native was much better than at present, and that India 
was one great model republic, like the United States, with the citizens 
exercising all the functions of government, and fully competent to carry 
them out. That was one of the cardinal mistakes which had been made. 
India was not England, and although there were some native gentlemen, 
like Mr. Dadabhai Naoroji, the condition of the great mass of the people 
must not be forgotten. Ifc really only did miscUef to the advancement 
of India to suggest topics to them which they were incapable of considerr 
ing as a body ; and although they might bo very well discussed by men 
of intelligence and enlightenment, they were calculated to create disaf- 
fection and disappointment amongst the natives of India. This therefore 
answered the remark of Mr. Cassels that Europeans were more generally 
disposed to lend their money to countries even in a chronic state of revo- 
lution than to India. The question lay entirely with the natives of 
India. The more they proved thQ permanence of the system of govern- 
ment under English leadership, but which was really being carried out 
by native intelligence, the greater would be the amount of capital, which 
it was said could not be obtained in India, but must come from Europe. 
He would therefore call the attention of the author of the paper to the 
political remedy, not such as he supposed, of handing over the govem- 
, ment direct to the natives of India, but the improving of the municipal 

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organization, and so to gradually do what the Goyemment of India was 
doing — educating the natives, and bringing them forward step by step; 
but for that purpose it was necessary that the intellectual gifts of a man 
like Mr. Dadabhai Naoroji should be employed, not in promoting poli- 
tical agitation — which, though a great instrument in England, would be 
a very dangerous one in India — ^but in promoting the moral and social 
improvement of the people. 

Mr. Yesey Fitzgebald said that, whatever might be the comparative 
advances made in civilization by England and India in years gone by, 
in those ancient times both countries were destitute of the resources and 
appliances of modem civilization, regard being had either to physical 
and material agencies, or to financial administration. With regiurd to 
material progress in India^ there was no doubt that much had been 
already done, and that more would bo accomplished, although the amount 
and extent of the improvement would depend upon various eventualities, 
which he would not then speculate upon. He might say, however, that 
the East Indian Irrigation Company stopped the progress of the Orissa 
famine wherever its works were carried out, and human life had thus 
been saved to a considerable extent, a fact to which he looked back with 
the most unmised satisfaction, for he believed ther^ was no moral or 
religious duty more incumbent on all connected with India than to put 
a stop to these horrible famines. Government had now purchased the 
works of the company, since which time, he believed, not much had been 
done in extending them, but still they existed, and that was something, 
though a mere trifle compared with what might be done by an extension 
of these irrigation works throughout the country. 

Mr. Eastwioe, M.P., said he did not intend to throw any light on 
the controversy which had sprung up, in the first place because he was 
unable to settle it, and next, because he would not if he could, since it 
might serve to accomplish the great object in view, that of calling the 
attention of Parliament to the aifairs of India. He was not at all san- 
guine that Parliament would succeed in solving the problem, but, at any 
rate, they would awaken public interest in the matter. He would, how- 
ever, throw out one or two words of consolation to the author of the 
paper, who, naturally enough, was inclined to look upon the dark side of 
the picture. Even supposing it to be true that England was drawing 
12,000,000Z. annually from India, and returning very little to it, he was 
quite sure, from the examples to be found in history, that India would 
soon recover herself. Without going back to the old times, when gold, 
ivory, and peacocks were brought from India, he would only refer first to 
Madmoud, who carried off countless sums of money —hundreds of millions 
— ^if the accounts given were correct ; but, nevertheless, not many years 
afterwards, India was again flourishing and full of wealth. The enor- 
mous wealth taken away in the time of Shah Jahom was a wonder to 
everyone, but that period passed, and after a time Nadir Shah was seen 
going away with innumerable possessions. He had seen the magnificent 
jewels in Persia, worth from 15,000,000Z. to 20,000,000Z., the greater 
part of which were taken from Delhi. In spite, however, of the tremen- 
dous spoliation, India very soon recovered herself, and was now in a 
most flourishing condition. This was proved by the fact that prices had 

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risen, that public works were hemg spread oyer the country, and that the 
people were contented, notwithstanding the little trouble about the in- 
come-tax, which would soon pass away. With regard to lending out 
money in India for public works in a much more profuse way than had 
hitherto been adopted, he thought it a very questionable proceeding. K 
the works were remunerative, capital would naturally be attracted to that 
country ; but on the contrary, if it were not attracted, and if the returns 
were not very great, it showed that much caution ought to be used. 

Mr. Ebishnabao Deshmueh said, whilst he agreed that the growth 
of the raw products in India should be encouraged and stimulated, he 
was of opinion that something more in the shape of manu&ctures was 
needed, in order to give employment to the people and value to the 
natural productions of the country. Now, government in India was of 
a patriarchal character, being looked up to for everything that was 
required, and therefore he would suggest that something in the way of 
national schools of art and science ^ould be established. It was also 
highly necessary that there should be better means of distributing the 
w^lji of India, and for that purpose further means of communication 
were required. Now, public works of all kinds, as at present conducted, 
were very expensive, and consequently limited in amount, one reason of 
which was, that all the engineering superintendence had to be imported 
from Europe,' at a great expense ; and as the gentlemen who went there 
for this purpose had to run the risk of ruining their health by the 
climate, they, of course, required very high remuneration for their 
services. There was no reason, however, why natives should not be 
educated and trained as civil engineers ; and he believed the Chairman 
would agree with him that they might find a legitimate field for their 
energies in that direction. Mr. Hyde Clarke and others seemed to 
think that the paper contained reflections on the Indian Government 
rather than on tiie commerce of the country, and that it was proposed 
that Government should prohibit the exportation of grain. He appre- 
hended, however, that the object of the paper was merely to show the 
evils arising from want of communication between the different provinces, 
so that the produce of the country was diverted to different parts of the 
world rather than to the relief of its suffering and starving inhabitants. 

Mr. Bbigh^s proposed that the discussion should be adjourned, the 
subject being one of great importance. 

Mr. W. T AYLEB seconded the motion, especially as he believed the pur- 
pose and scope of the paper had been misunderstood by some gentlemen. 

Mr. J. A. Fbakelin supported the proposition, in order that the 
heavy indictment brought against the India Government might be 

The Chaibman said that, in accordance with the wishes of the 
meeting, the discussion would be adjourned to March 3rd, that being 
the earliest available day. For himself he could hardly look upon the 
paper as a bill of indictment, but rather considered it as bringing forward 
important facts bearing on a commercial question which it was pecu- 
liarly the province of such a Society to discuss. Mr. Dadabhai Naoroji 
produced figures in which he conceived he had shown very clearly that, 
during a certain period of years, there had been a very large money 

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balance paid by Bidia to England, and which might be considered either 
as the cost of good goyemment to India, or as a tribute, bnt nndonbtedly 
it was an annual payment by India to England. He did not imagine 
that Mr. Dadabluui Naoroji intended in the least to complain of this 
burden, but rather to look upon it as a burden which India willingly 
bore for the great benefit which she received from England. Still, it 
was a matter of great importance, when dealing with a person on whom 
a benefit was conferred, and who had to pay an annual sum for that 
benefit, to know how that burden could be most easily borne, and that 
seemed to him a point which was peculiarly the province of the Society 
of Arts to discuss. As far as he knew, that point had never been brought 
- prominently before the English public. It was brought forward origin- 
ally by Sir George Wingate in one of his reports, but it had never been 
adequately discussed by Englishmen. In other countries, when facts of 
this sort, containing imputations of any kind on the Government, were 
brought forward, pe^es met in some dark hole and conspired together, 
and got up a revolution or rebellion ; but it was one of the peculiar 
blessings of England that, instead of doing so. Englishmen met in a 
well-lighted room like this, and a number of practical men took the 
matter in hand, set to work to discuss it, and did not rest until they had 
settled the question whether the facts before them bore out the inferences 
which had been drawn. That, as he understood, was the course which 
the author of the paper wished to be pursued. That was how the corn- 
law question was dealt with. There were very few in that room probably 
who did not recollect the time when it was considered that some great 
benefit to somebody was derived from the corn-law, and it was not until 
after long discussion, and a great deal of argument and calculation, that 
people began to see that there were two sides to that question, and ulti- 
mately it had been settled, as most people believed now, in the right way. 
It was by means of associations in different parts of tiie country doing 
the same kind of work which that Society did in London, which con- 
verted the English mind and brought the country peaceably through 
that great revoluticm, and that was £e sort of thing which was wanting 
in the present instancy, so that it might really be seen whether India did 
pay a large tax to England for a great benefit, and whether this tax could 
in any way be levied in a more favourable manner. This was a question 
in wluch the Society could render most essential service to both countriesi. 
He was glad to be able to say that only that morning he had seen a 
sketch of a very large department of agriculture and commerce, which 
Lord Mayo had deinsed, and which he considiered should do in India 
very much the kind of work which was done by the Board of Trade 
here ; and he had no doubt that in a mail or two very full details, would 
be seen of what that department was intended to do. He had also seen 
a letter within the last day or two from Colonel Bundell, in which he 
mentioned that 100,000 acres had this year been irrigated from the works 
in Orissa, commenced during the famine. And, in addition, it was stated 
that the port of False Point, which at that time was almost inaccessible, 
had now become of considerable importance. All this was due to the 
work done by Englishmen acting on intelligence derived from the intel- 
ligent natives of India, and these were the sort of agencies which he 

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believed Mr. Dadabbai Naoroji wisbed to see multiplied. In considering 
tbese questions, a map of India sbonld always be at band, wben it would 
be seen tbat wbat appeared an immense amount of work, if applied to a 
country like England, was very little wben applied to snob an area as 
tbat of India. In conclusion, be moved a cordial vote of thanks to Mr. 
Dadabbai Naoroji for bis valuable paper. 

Mr. Kazi Shahabudin seconded tbe resolution, wbicb was carried 

Mr. Tatleb said be believed one point in tbe paper wbicb required 
discussion was tbe question wbetber tbe natives of Lidia sbould not be 
more adequately represented in tbe Government. He boped tbat would 
be considered by gentlemen intending to take part in tbe adjourned dis- 
cussion.— (/ottmaZ of the Society of Arts, Feb. 17, 1871.) 


For the adjourned Discussion on Mr, Dadabhai Naorcfis Pajper on 
" The Commerce of India*' 

Sir BABTLE FEERB, K.C.B., G.C.S.I., in the Chaib. 

Thb Chaibman said, since tbe adjournment be bad bad two or tbree 
notes &om gentlemen wbo volunteered to defend tbe Government of India 
against wbat tbey conceived to be cbarges brougbt against it in tbe paper, 
but be believed tbe meeting generally would agree witb bim tbat tbis was 
not in tbe least necessary. No one could be more jealous than be him- 
self of the good name of tbe Indian Government, but be considered tbat 
no charge requiring a defence was brougbt forward. There was simply a 
statement of facts, wbicb admitted of being proved or disproved, and 
whatever might be tbe result of tbe discussion, it was one in which the 
Grovemment of India above all ought to rejoice. 

Mr. Bbiogs concurred with tbe opinion of some of the previous 
speakers that it was more like a bill of indictment against our Indian 
policy than an essay on tbe Commerce of India. Be this as it may, 
he was at a loss to know why it sbould not be so if it could be clearly 
shown that tbe Indian poHcy of our Government bad been the great 
obstructor of India's progress and development Why sbould the 
Government be left untold of their faults and shortcomings in respect to 
their Indian any more than that of home policy ? This was no party 
question ; it was one of life and death for the masses of the people of 
India, who number some two hundred millions — an empire which is 
said to be '' the brightest gem in the British crown." If this saying be 
true, let us not refuse to rub it up and bring out its native dormant 
brilliancy. He would not dwell much on &e author's preliminary 
figures, wherein be seems to differ from Mr. Melville on the question of 
some medium of exchange (silver). '* Figures may be used to prove black 
was white," &c. How does be value the imports, to wit ? Does be value 
them at the cost at which they are put on shore in India, or at tbe p^ice 

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they realize wben finally sold? He (Mr. Briggs) had reason for putting 
this question, of a painful nature. For instance, some nine or ten years 
ago he and others had subscribed some 70,000Z., which was spent princi- 
pally in machinery, and sent over to India in order to help the natives 
in their eiforts to bring out some of the dormant agricultural wealth. 
This machinery cost us about 70,000Z., and, in consequence of the rotten 
system of government, obstacles of every conceivable shape were inter-^ 
posed to ihe efforts made to building docks and bridges, make roads, 
and cultivate the soil. The result was that they gave up their efforts in 
disgust, and the machinery, &c., was sold, the whole stock, lock and 
barrel, for less than 18,000/. Now, what he wanted to know was whether 
the 18,000Z. or the 70,000Z. would be the ofKcial value for statistical 
figures ? Again, we had more tban once sent goods to India that had not 
realized cost price by some 20 to 50 per cent. He mentioned this 
merely to show that figures may be misleading. It might, however, also 
show to some extent the cause of India's want of progress. Mr. Naoroji 
divides his paper into three heads, vk. : " first — The Beal Extent of the 
Commerce of India ; second — The Beason why it is extremely Limited^ 
notwithstanding the Progress it has, to some extent, made; thud — What 
Suitable Bemedies should be adopted for so unsatisfeu^tory a state of 
things." He would take the first point as settled, and say a few wordd 
on the second and third. Suffice it to say that the real extent of India's 
commerce, like all other agricultural countries, must necessarily depend 
upon the surplus produce of her soil after feeding her own people. 
Second — ^As regards the reasons why it is so extremely limited, they are 
certainly various ; but there is one question which underlies all the rest, 
and he regretted to find Mr. Dadabhai dwelt but slightly upon it. If 
he be unsound on this (the comer-stone to the whole fabric! he (Mr. 
Briggs) trembled for the regeneration of India through native repre- 
sentation; he need not say that that question is the ''Waste Land 
Laws." He had said this repeatedly, and he did not shrink from re- 
peating it here, that until a sound code of laws be passed for alienating 
the soU to the masses of the people, there would be no hope for India. 
Before you offer the people genertJly the power of self-government, first 
bind them to the soil in fee simple by this unerring bond of peace. 
They would then soon find a way to respect peace, law, and order ; they 
woxdd then have a powerful stimulus to patriotism, and they would then, 
and not till then, see that their own self-interest was bound up in that 
old but good proverb, " Honesty is the best policy." This is ttie key to 
the solution of the whole problem, morally, socially, materially, politically, 
and economically. Herein lies the secret of Lord Mayo's coils, that 
England seeks to entwine, the golden chain of affection and peace. 
What free trade in com was for England, free trade in land would be 
for India. It is through this policy, and no other, that we may hope 
for Lord Lawrence's ''grand desiderata, the means of export." It is 
through this policy that we shall find means for the execution of such 
works as railways, canals, irrigation, cheap transit generally, so that the 
means of distribution may be perfected. Mr. Dadabhai Naoroji tells us 
that " the administration reports of the different Governments give us 
figures of many millions of acres of cultivated waste land," and goes 

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on to blame Qoyemment for not opening up those lands. Judging from 
the past history of onr att^npts to open np these, we see clearly that 
nntil the Land Laws alluded to be a fact accomplished, we may as well 
<< call spirits from the vasty deep " as look to Goyemment to do these 
beneficent works. Had Mr. Dadabhai left out one or two columns of 
his preliminary figures about silver (trash), and devoted the same space 
and labour in showing how many millions of acres, and in what locality, 
he would have done still better, though I have no fault to find barring 
this, for it is as well the question is brought before the public by a 
native of India. As regards the guarantee of the loyalty and affection 
of the people, I would submit that no better guarantee than this law, 
which enables the great mass of the people to become landowners in fee 
simple, by virtue of complying with the easy conditions of settling 
down, cultivating, and conforming to just laws of citizenship. To give 
an illustration corroborative of what I have advanced in &vour of 
recognizing these wise land laws, which wed labour to the soil, and 
multiply its products fivefold, I would venture to draw your attention to 
a letter, copied from the < Delhi Gazette ' into ' The Asiatic ' of the 24th 
ult. (January), from Mr. Login, who reports that he ^ had great pleasure 
in informing you the yield of my cotton experimental field was, up to 
the 10th inst. (Dec, 1870), no less than 247 lbs. of clean cotton per 
acre, or nearly five times the average rate of cotton fields grown on the 
native system during the whole season. As the gathering season lasts 
till the end of January, there still remains fifty days ; and if the rate 
continues as it has done (nearly 5 lbs. an acre daily), this would give us 
nearly 250 lbs. more, or very nearly 500 lbs. per acre, as estimated by the 
natives when I prepared my report on the 21st October. Now, who is 
this Mr. Login? If it be the one who read a paper for this Association, 
I think he ought to be recognized at once as being the great pioneer to 
that mode of agriculture that will prove to be the only means for 
regenerating India. He has given us proof positive that the soil and 
climate, if properly treated, is capaple of from five to ten times its 
present yield per acre. In order to show the native mind what it gets 
for the ten or twelve millions a year, which they seem to grudge, let us 
take Mr. Login's estimate at the lowest point, to avoid exaggeration, at 
say five times the present average produce. Mr. Dadabhai Naoroji puts 
the present value of the produce of the soil for all India at 80«. per 
annum per head of the population, or 4Z.— that is, 200,000,000, at 4Z. 
each, 800,000,0007. Now, if we multiply this by five, say 4,000,000,000/., 
which is . Mr. Login's estimate of what it would produce if properly 
treated, and which has been demonstrated by actual experience. Now, 
here is a profit sufficient to satisfy any reasonable man, or set of men, 
ft. e. by an outlay of twelve millions a year for ruling India, there is a 
return of four thousand millions, or three thousand two hundred millions 
profit. It is true they may say we have never realized this yet ; quite 
so, but whose fault is it ? Here lies the ^ hitch." You had such men 
as Lord Canning, who had brains and moral courage enough to give you 
a sound code of laws respecting the alienation of waste lands. This 
was the foundation-stone, and had it been allowed to remain the law of 
the land, was worth to you at least, say one-half, or 2,000,000,0007. You 

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had sacH men as Major-General Sir A. Cotton, whose skill and honesty 
would have shown yon how to facilitate distribution by means of steam- 
ship cauoals, and also to increase production by irrigation. This would 
have been worth to you another 1,000,000,000Z. Then there are such 
men as Mr. Login, whom I have just been quoting, whose hydraulic 
engineering skill cannot be well surpassed, tjtilize brains like these 
and you have the other 1,000,000,000Z. to complete the four thousand 
millions alluded to. I leave out other names, inasmuch as I consider 
other statesmen who are concerned in the development of India to be 
accounted good, bad, or indifferent, according as they utilize by their 
legislation the brains of the above class of men. If our Society fail to 
recognize correctly cause and efiPect, how can it expect to enlist public 
sympathy a&d support; and f ailing the latter, we cannot expect to in- 
fluence the Legisli^are to any great extent for good ; and that we have 
not yet done so, I think sufficient evidenoe of it will be found in the 
fact that not only was the Queen's Speech destitute of any allusion to 
Indian matters, but that when the Indian Budget was brought before 
the House the other day, scarcely a score of M.P.*s were to be found at 
their post, and before the close of the Budget speech not more than ten 
remained to discuss it. Now, these are what I term the ^' heroic ten/' 
who brave the moral and social scandal attached to patriotically and 
disinterestedly performing their duty to their country, regardless of 
party cry ; and I would venture to suggest that their names, and also 
those of their constituents, be printed in letters of gold, in a memorial 
to be presented to those constituents, thanking them for having sent to 
Parliament such far-seeing and wise representatives. 

Mr. Tatleb said it must be a cause of great regret to all who took an 
interest in India, that some of the statements made by Mr. Dadabhai 
Naoroji, in his very able paper, had been the cause of some misappre- 
hension. He used the word "misapprehension," because he felt convinced 
that all who were acquainted with the able author would feel it was 
perfectly preposterous to impute to him any desire to exhibit disloyalty 
to the Government, or to raise any vexatious antagonism to the present 
authorities. Englishmen were apt to attribute to the natives rather a 
leaning to that over^ubserviency to the powers that be which was dis- 
approved of in this country. It was not therefore for an assembly of 
Englishmen to censure or disapprove of such a manly, frank, and in- 
dependent declaration of opinion as that which was presented in ike paper. 
He should be very sony to think that the natives of India, many of whom 
would no doubt read the record of what had taken place, should be 
impressed with the idea that Englishmen condemned in others what they 
admired in themselves. He did not propose to enter into the delicate 
ethnological question of the amount of clothing the ancient Britons 
possess^ at the time when India was in a state of high civilization ; all 
he could say was that the practical question is not what the natives of 
India wore a thousand years ago, but what they wear now ; and this he 
must confess was unpleasantly little, and the great question for them to 
consider was, how that little could be increased, for if each native of 
India at the present moment were to add only one small piece of cloth to 
his habiliments, it would be an exceedingly interesting fact to Manchester, 

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and would be a source of immense profit to English manufacturers. Sta- 
tistics, of wHch he had the greatest abhorrence, were generally a most 
fruitful source of controversy : Mr. Cassels had disputed to a certain 
extent those cited in the paper. He thought there were some elements 
of confusion in those produced by Mr. Dadabhai. For instance, he con- 
sidered it rather unnecessary to go back so far to those " bad times," as 
Mr. Gladstone called them, and to take an average of seventy years' 
imports. He thought a period embracing the last ten or twenty years 
would have been amply sufficient. However, the real point at issue was 
this — Mr. Dadabhai Naoroji's statement was, that the rule of England 
was a foreign rule, and that a foreign ruler takes from the subject kingdom 
a certain amount of money, under the name of tribute or something else ; 
and taking this at ten or twelve millions, he said nothing was given in 
return in the shape of material, tangible money. He did not for a 
moment suppose liiat it was meant to imply that nothing at all in the 
shape of moral return was made, or that security to life and property, an 
immunity from external danger, a tolerable adnunistration of justice, and 
the blessing of education to a certain extent, though not so great as it 
ought to be, had not been given to India. If anyone were to deny that, 
he need only point to Mr. Dadabhai Naoroji himself as a signal illustra- 
tion of the fact. The question was. Did England do her duty adequately 
to the people subject to her? What were the facts ? After a century of 
struggle for supremacy, partly by honourable victory, partly by judicious 
treaty, partly by questionable intrigue, and partly by most unquestionable 
spoliation, the English nation had become at last the paramount power 
throughout the whole of British India. This was not to be disputed. 
Here, then, were two nations brought into contact, one strong in the 
strength of advanced civilization, of wealth, of situation, and of political 
power; the other weak in semi-barbarism, ignorance, and superstition. 
The two were brought together, and the weak nation was now under the 
dominion of the strong, and subject, he hoped willingly, but, certainly, 
without open resistance, to its power. These people possessed a country, 
one of the most magnificent in tiie creation, with noble mountains, glorious 
rivers, miles of cultivated fields, and unlimited capabilities of production, 
yielding everything man could wish to have or to enjoy ; yet these 200 
millions of people were weak, poor, and impoverished. In auspicious 
seasons they reaped, by their patient labour, a scanty subsistence; but if 
heaven denied them the early and the latter rains, they died in tens of 
thousands, and the whole land was whitened with their bones. Did the 
British Government fulfil its trust to these poor people? He must say, he 
thought it was a question more easy to ask than to answer. Of the glitter, 
pomp, and pride of outward circumstances there was enough, and more 
than enough. There was a covenanted and uncovenanted service, un- 
equalled in the world; there were laws,, which, though not always suited 
to the people, were sound in principle; there were courts, where justice 
was professedly administered ; the Viceroy was a live lord, and scarlet 
and gold glittered around the Government House; the whole paraphernalia 
were dignified and appropriate; but in spite of all this, he feared that we 
had abused our trust, had neglected the poor, had paid far too much 
attention to the outside of the platter, and that whilst wash after wash of 

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meretricious plaster had been laid on the exterior of the sepulchre, the 
inside of it was full of unclean things, and too often, he feared, of dead 
men's bones. What was to be done ? At this moment the middle classes, 
the native millionaires, and the salaried officials were uttering shrieks, 
as Mr. Grant Duff said, when any unwelcome taxation was imposed upon 
them, their voice was re-echoed through the press, and their cries were 
heard and attended to; but who was &ere to speak, who to agitate, who 
to think for the 200 millions of poor people who, according to *The 
Times,' lived on 2(2. a day, and required but a few rags to clothe them? 
Were those people adequately represented, and justly taxed ? He would 
entreat those who had any interest in the councik of the empire, to 
impress it upon those at the head of affisdrs, that now, when a certain 
breathing time was allowed us, they ought to propose to themselves the 
question whether England was doing her duty to the great nation which 
was placed under her charge. For this purpose the great objects to be 
aimed at were, first of all, the increase of artificial irrigation, ensuring a 
supply of water, in India truly called the water of life; increased facilities 
of transit and locomotion, in order that the surplus produce of the land 
might be distributed; the release of the poor from the oppression of 
usurious money-lenders (which he was glad to see had already been 
initiated by Lord Mayo); the proper equalization of taxation, and the 
exemption of the lower classes from the duty on salt, their only luxury, 
or rather a necessary of life to those who live on vegetable diet — a 
necessary which is now taxed at the rate of 7 per cent, on their miserable 
earnings. In conclusion, he would repeat that the foundation of all 
succes^ul administration in India, of all stability, and all financial 
success, might be summed up in this one sentence: — First the productive- 
ness of the soil ; secondly, tike contentment of the people. 

Mr. Eazi Shahabtjdin said Mr. Hyde Clarke had complained at the 
previous meeting that although the title of the paper was '^ The Commerce 
of India," the discussion had been on the Government ; but he seem^ to 
have forgotten one great point, that in India all the results affecting the 
material and intellectual conditions of the people were traceable to the 
action and agency of the Government, contrary to what took place in 
England, where, id anything went wrong, the people themselves were to 
blame. In India, everything being done by the Government, it must 
both take the credit for what good it did, and also accept the blame for 
its shortcomings. Anyone ta^ng up the trade returns, and analyzing 
them, would find an extraordinary state of things, viz, that the exports 
exceeded its imports by millions. This was a startling fact, because no 
country could be in a prosperous condition where it existed. He might 
illustrate it in this way : If a merchant in Bombay sent 100/. worth of 
goods to England, ho must get back, not only his lOOZ., but a profit to 
cover his expenses, and to support him. If he got only 92/. he could not 
say he was prospering, and the end would be that he must close his 
concern. Now, in the trade of India there were other items mixed up in 
the returns which were not commercial. To continue the same iUnstra* 
tion : If the Bombay merchant had a ^end in London, and sent to him 
saying he was in difficult circumstances, and his friend sent him a loan 
of 15/., you could not call that a commercial export ; it was no return 

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for goods sent, it was only a loan, which stood to the credit of his 
English Mend, and must be repaid. In the same way, loans formed a 
large portion of Indian imports. Mr. Gassels said that India, in the ten 
years ending with 1866, imported 180,000,0002. of bullion, and so it was; 
bnt taking ihis fisMit apiurt from the whole of India's commerce, it was apt 
to give an erroneous impression. Persons not understanding the whole 
subject might suppose it was all imported and hoarded, that it was all 
profit, but he could see no difference between bullion and other mer- 
chandise. It was just like piece goods or hardware. Now, taking the ten 
years during which this amount of bullion was imported, the exports were, 
during that time, 488,000,000Z., and the imports, including the bullion, 
405,000,000/. In these imports were included 101,000,000/. which were 
not commercial imports at all, but either debt contracted in England 
or money advanced for railways, and all this 101,000,000/. stood to the 
debit of India ; thus, there was a balance against Indut of 184,000,000/. 
in ten years, or at the rate of about 18,000,000/. a year, which was the 
estimated transfer of wealth from India to England. Mr. Gassels also 
stated that of late years the exports and imports were nearly equal, but 
that exports from Lidia must always be kept in excess of imports. He 
would only say that any student of political economy would agree with 
him, that neither India nor any other country could prosper if her 
exports were kept in excess of her imports to the amount of millions. If 
this were the case, he needed to be considerably enlightened. Now, the 
question would naturally arise. What must be the condition of a country, 
and what were the causes of this state of things? The question had 
been answered in two ways : one answer had been given by Mr.Dadabhai 
Naoroji, and the other answer had been given by fiiose opposed to him. 
They said that the present Oovemment was a great improvement on the 
former state of things. He did not consider that an answer. It was a 
great mistake for anyone to suppose that the natives of India were not 
sensible of the benefits of English rule. Those who held this view did 
not do justice to his countrymen, or to the education given by the 
English Government, but a comparison with the former condition ought 
not to be any source of satisfaction. The same might be said of England. 
Notwithstanding all the improvements of modem times, the nation were 
still clamouring for more. His friend (Mr. Dadabhai), on the other 
hand, said the actual condition of the country was best estimated by 
ascertaining what it produced, and this he put at 40«. per head : adding 
100 per cent, for opium, salt, and the produce of industry, his figures 
came to about 2«. per head of the population per week. His estimate of 
408. per head had been confirmed in Parliament by tlie Under Secretary 
of State for India. If any other confirmation were required, he would 
appeal to those who had passed through the country and lived among the 
people. The report submitted by a Oovemment official in Madras stated 
that the masses of the population in that Presidency were paupers. 
Another proof was the cost of living in Oovemment gaols, which, includ- 
ing clothing, was 8 rupees per month, and it was admitted that the diet 
given in gaols was not available for the masses. Again, Mr. Elliot, an 
officer in the North- Western Provinces, said the diet in the gaols was 
large and generous, and that half the agricultural population did not 

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know what it was to Iiave their hunger folly satisfied. Bombay was the 
most flonriBhing Presidency, but the condition of the masses there, with 
which he was well acquainted, was not much better ; in fetct, the masses 
generally were no better than paupers. Very recently, Mr. Cave quoted 
the price of grain at Jubbulpoor, and inferred therefh)m a high state of 
prosperity; but how many Jubbulpoors were there in India? There 
were hundreds of places not far off where grain was as cheap as anything 
could be, and the price of labour very low indeed, so that such an isolated 
instance was no criterion whatever. 

Mr. Maitlakd thought the main question was, what could really be 
done for India, rather than whether all the details of figures given were 
absolutely correct. It was not his intenigion to defend the Government of 
India in every respect, but some statements had been made in the paper 
which, if they passed without comment, would, he believed, tend to 
produce effects which the writer would be the first to regret, for an over- 
statement was always a source of weakness. Now, in dealing with the 
commerce of India, Mr. Dadabhai Naoroji had compared it, taking the 
computed value per head of population, with the exports and imports of 
English colonies in North America, Australia, and elsewhere ; but it had 
been often said that figures would prove anything, and when statistics 
were given, it was of the utmost importance that correct deductions should 
be drawn £rom them, or they would do more harm than good. He con- 
tended that one might as well take as a comparison the empire of China. 
It had a very fertile soil, and one of the most hard-working and thrifty 
populations in the world. The country was of such vast extent, that it 
was impossible to say exactly what the population was, but it was esti- 
mated at £rom 300,000,000 to 350^000,000; and taking the exports of tea, 
silk, &c., that came from there, and dividing them by the number of the 
population, the result would be most astonishing. The fact was, that 
large parts of the empire of China were so fSeu: removed from the seaboard 
that it was quite impossible that they ever could export any quantity of 
produce. The country was so imbedded in Asia that it was not possible 
for large parts of the interior, however industrious the population, to do 
more tiban produce enough for themselves and their neighbours. And it 
was the same with India to a great extent. As he heard Mr. Grant Duff 
say the other evening, one great difiSculty in governing India was, that 
with the revenue contributed by 150,000,000 of people you had to govern 
as well as possible, in a scientific and proper way, 200,000,000. The 
meaning of that was, that a large portion of the population were not pro- 
ducers ; they were still in a state of whole or partial savagedom, and a 
large number were so far removed from the sea-coast that their bulky 
produce could never be exported. It was absurd, therefore, to draw a 
comparison between such a country and England, covered as it was with 
a network of railways, or with Australia^ with a population of perhaps 
2,000,000, every one of whom almost was a producer of something. An 
American would laugh at the idea of takmg an average per head of 
exports of all the individuals subject to the United States Government, 
including the Bed Indians ; and on the same principle, only that portion 
of the population within reach of the seaboard ought to be taken into 
account. The same with regard to imports. It was said that Australia 

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imported goods to the value of 6Z. per head, as against 2«. per head for 
India, bnt it must be remembered that from time immemorial India had 
been the seat of manufiM^tnres herself. He remembered the time when 
large quantities of piece goods came from India to England. It was 
useless, too, to go back so far as seventy years, especially when the sta- 
tistics of a more recent period showed great improvements. In 1853, he 
went out to become a partner in a house in India, and he left in 1864, 
and during that time he witnessed remarkable changes, and the same had 
occurred between 1864 and the present time. He did not speak without 
knowledge, having had the honour to be President of the Bengal Chamber 
of Commerce, and a member of the Legislative Council of Bengal. He 
could say without hesitation, and would refer to any of his broker mer- 
chants in India to confirm the statement, that from 1853 to 1864, and 
again from 1864 to the present time, there had been an immense develop- 
ment of the commerce of India. He wished there were ten miles of rail- 
road and canal for every one yet made, but still it was no use shutting 
one's eyes to what had been done during the past few years. Again, Mr. 
Naoroji had spoken of poor India being drained of its talent and brains, 
all the Government officials coming home after a time ; but there was a 
constant succession of able men to replace those who left, and it was 
quite a mistake to suppose that those who had been in India, when they 
came home, forgot her, and took no interest in her welfare. The real 
question, however, was, what could be done to improve the condition of 
Lidia? The scheme of decentralization was about to be brought into 
play, and no doubt the paper which the Chairman had read in that room a 
short time ago was not without its influence in that direction. Eailways 
were extendmg, and one very satisfactory feature in the case was, that 
some of the native princes were coming forward to contribute funds for 
this purpose. Anodier thing which he much wished to see, and which, 
as feur back as 1857, he had pressed upon the attention of the Indian 
Government, was the abolition of the export duties on articles of Indian 
produce, particularly those which had to compete with the produce of 
other countries. At all events, those duties should be very moderate, 
and not like the present high duty on rice. He believed this would 
now receive attention, for he noticed that Lord Mayo, in advocating the 
establishment of a Department of Agriculture for India, said he doubted 
whether, if such a department had existed, it would be possible to impose 
or maintain export duties on the staple products of the country. In con- 
clusion, he hoped it would not go forth to the people of India that the 
House of Commons paid little or no attention to Indian afi&iirs, for he was 
pleased to see what an improvement was being manifested in this respect, 
a much larger attendance than usual having marked the introduction of 
the Indian budget. 

Greneral Sir Abthub Cotton said he could not agree with the last 
q>eak6r, that there were districts in China and India which must always 
be cut off from all foreign commerce, the fundamental fact in the question 
of foreign commerce being that every part of the world was accessible to 
every other part. It was simply necessary to make internal transit so 
cheap that anything could be conveyed almost any distance, and that was 
one of the most essential points of the present question. It was said 

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that there were parts of India inaccessible to the ocean, but this was the 
very point in dispute, and to say that they always mnst be so was begging 
the question. The Western States of America were completely cut off 
from the rest of the world ; but now, by means of canals and rivers, they 
were brought into communication with the seaboard, and their produce 
was conveyed thousands of miles, and brought into competition in the 
markets of the world. It was a matter of unmixed satis&ction to him to 
see Mr. Dadabhai Naoroji and other native gentlemen standing up, 
meeting Englishmen fSftce to face, and discussing these questions ; and he 
hoped other intelligent native gentlemen would come forward and do the 
same. There was, however, one main source of fiEdlacy in almost every 
statement put forth with regard to India, and that was Uiat the difference 
in the value of money was not taken account of. Now, this difference 
between England and India was at least three to one, and sometimes four 
to one, at the present moment ; and when 2«. a head in India was spoken of 
in comparison with other places, it ought really to be Is, or 8«. per head. 
If this fact was not kept in view, it falsified every inference. Again, 
as to going back seventy years, he thought we had quite sufficient to 
bear of our own sins without answering for those of our grandfathers, 
and the question was, what had been done during the last few years, and 
what was doing now? From 1858 to 1867, the import of bullion into 
India above the exports had been 164 millions, or about 1^^ millions 
a year, and he submitted that that was a bona fide increase of wealth to 
India. No doubt, they had sent home the value of it, having sold 
produce beyond what was consumed for their own use, which had enabled 
them to import this amount of money. Then, when comparing the 
imports of British manufactures into India and into Australia, the 
l8. 9d. per head in the former case must be multiplied by at least tiiree, 
as he had before said, in order to make a fair comparison, and in the 
next place the difference of climate, and consequently the amount of 
clothing required, must be borne in mind. If aU the natives of India 
had to clothe themselves in pea-jackets and wann trousers, there would, 
of course, be an immense increase in this respect. Some doubt had been 
thrown on the rise of prices in India, but it was a positive fact that the 
fieJl in the value of money during the last fifteen years was at least equal 
to two to one, and this was an immense boon to the natives in its bearing 
on the land-tax. Fifteen years ago, this tax was one rupee an acre, and 
it was the same now; but at the present moment they only had to sell 
half the produce to raise the tax as they formerly had. Mr. Tayler had 
touched upon one of the most important points when he said that there 
was no provision for hearing the voice of the masses of the people of India. 
That was the grand fundamental evil, for, in the present state of things, 
there was no possibility of their being heard. If a tax was imposed 
which affected the merchants, or the zemindars, or the planters, or if 
anything was done which affected the Government officials, there* was no 
end of discussion about it, but a financier might lay a tax on the poor 
people's salt, and nobody said a word. That was a most terrible evil, 
and one which ought to be remedied. The slaves in America were never 
allowed to speak, nothing was heard of them, they had no representation, 
but the result was a concussion which shook the whole Union to its basisj 
No. 2, Vol. V. I 

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and ended in the destruction of half a million of people, and a debt of 
400,000,0002. This was the simple result of treating the mass of the 
labouring classes with contempt and indifference. The masses of the 
people could not be left in this position with impunity. The case of the 
Onssa famine had also been mentioned, and Mr. Dadabhai Naoroji had 
been found fSetult with for complaining i^at rice had been exported from 
India whilst thousands were dying with famine. In his opinion, how- 
ever, he was perfectly right, and that famine was one of the greatest blots 
that ever fell upon a nation. At the moment that himdreds of thousands 
were dying for want of food, 50,000. tons of rice were being sent away to 
England. Could anybody say that the Grovemment could not haye 
bought the cargoes, stopped iiiose ships, brought them to Orissa, and 
discharged them there ? How Europeans could have stood by and seen 
that awful calamity, and not bought one shipload of rice to save the lives 
was most astounding in his eyes. It was no use ignoring this lamentable 
fact. While agreeing that ihe country was in a state of impoyerishment, 
^uch as ought not to be, he at the same time agreed that there had been a 
very great improvement made, and that things were now vastly im- 
proving. The main point was to increase the production and cheaper 
transit. A late leader in ' The Times ' said : — "A country rich in roads, 
harbours, arsenals, and stores, in other words provided liberally with 
all but water, possesses in reality a public fortune. Why is India, 
notwithstanding its fabulous reputation, one of the poorest countries in 
the world? Because it is in want of highways, ports, navigable rivers, 
systems of irrigation, and arrangements for developing its agricultural 
and mineral wealth. With good communications, easy means of transport, 
and a fertile soil, accumulated materials, and an industrious population, 
a country must needs be wealthy. France was a wealthy nation, because 
for ages past her rulers had devoted themselves to the creation of these 
modes of communication, which rendered available her productive soil 
and the efforts of her industrious population." At the present moment 
there were in India twelve vast works of irrigation on hand, which if 
completed would irrigate fifteen millions of acres, produce sixty millions' 
worth a year of produce, and give 15,000 miles of cheap transit, and 
nothing was wanted but to push them on. He was sorry to say, however, 
that as soon as the East Indian irrigation works were purchased by the 
Government they were immediately stopped, though they were in a for- 
ward state of completion. He could not conceive a greater blunder. 

Mr. Dadabhai Naoboji, in replying, said he felt exceedingly thankful 
for the way in which his paper had been received and discussed ; and, 
notwithstanding that some few remarks had been made, as was supposed, 
in opposition to his views, he could not but congratulate himself that his 
main points had been maintained and developed much more forcibly by 
other speakers than by himself. He had, however, been, in one or two 
instances, slightly misunderstood, as he would endeavour to explain. He 
had purposely avoided drawing any comparison between the past and 
present, and had introduced the statistics showing the excess of exports 
over imports merely to show how fallacious were the statements some- 
times put forth on the highest authority; and although this was, no 
doubty unintentional, it was none the less misleading. In a question of 

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commerce, in which fignres were the basis of the whole argmaent, it was 
absolutely essential that they shoald be accurate, and he must therefore 
be excused for saying that a great deal more care than was usually given 
was required in drawing conclusions from the statistics to which he had 
referred. He had never denied that some progress had been made during 
the last fifteen years, but upon this point also he would venture to use 
the following illustration : — A strong man knocked down a weaker one, 
and, to use the words of Mr. Grant Duff, almost ground him to dust, and 
then, after giving him a glass of water to revive him, said, " See how I 
have benefited you ; I have given you a good glass of water, and now 
you are ever so much better." Down to 1850,* India was being con- 
tinually impoverished, and then the Government themselves, being aghast 
at the results, began to look about to see what could be done. They 
soon struck upon the right path, which was, to send back to India the 
wealth which had been drained from her during seventy years, to the 
extent of hundreds of millions. 100,000,000Z. had been lent for the pur- 
pose of constructing railways, but this was not enough. England had 
drawn from India twenty times as much as she had yet lent her. He did 
not claim that it should be returned, he simply asked for a loan of so 
much money as would enable India to supply herself with necessary 
public works, and it should all be repaid, with a thousand thanks for 
England's good government. When India was lying in the dust, ex- 
hausted and helpless, only just reviving a little, it was no use saying to 
her, "You must help yourself." K no other feeling prompted such 
action — though he contended there could be no higher object of ambition 
than to raise up a nation of 200 million souls — selfishness alone should 
lead Britain not to drain India entirely dry. Many speakers had mis- 
taken his views, but all had agreed that India required further help ; and 
in replying to the charge which had been made against him in some 
quarters, of not doing justice to the good services which England had ren- 
dered to India, he had simply to submit a Dr. and Cr. account which he 
had sketched out, and to which he believed no exception could be taken, 

Cb. — In the Cause of Humanity, — ^Abolition of suttee and infanticide. 

Destruction of Dacoits, Thugs, Pindarees, and other such pests of 
Indian society. 

Bemarriage of Hindoo widows, and charitable aid in times of famine. 

Glorious work all this, of which any nation may well be proud, and 
such as has not fedlen to the lot of any people in the history of mankind. 

In the Cause of Civilization. — Education, both male and female. 
Though yet only partial, an inestimable blessing as far as it has gone, 
and leading gradimlly to the destruction of superstition, and many moral 
and social ei^s. Besuscitation of India's own noble literature, modified 
and refined by the enlightenment of the West. 

The only pity is, that as much has not been done as might have been 
in this noble work ; but still India must be, and is, deeply grateful. 

Politically. — ^Peace and order. Freedom of speech and liberty of the 
press. Higher political knowledge and aspirations. Improvement of 
government in the native States. Purity of life and property. Freedom 

'^ Sir A. Ck>tton told me, after the meeting, that I was quite right, that ahont 
1850 the poor people were very wretched. 

I 2 

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from oppression caused by the caprice or avarice of despotic nders, and 
from devastation by war. Equal justice between man and man (some- 
times vitiated by partiality to Europeans). Services of highly-educated 
administrators, who have achieved tiie above-mentioned good results. 

MatertdUy. — ^Loans for railways and irrigation. (I have been parti- 
cularly charged with ignoring this, but I consider it one of the greatest 
benefits you have conferred upon India, inasmuch as it has enabled us to 
produce more than we could before, though there is not yet enough for 
all India's ordinary wants, and I have said this in my paper.) I cannot 
ascertain the exact amount of investments in irrigation works, but I take 
them to be about 10,000,000Z., making the total 110,000,000Z. The 
development of a few vfduable products, such as indigo, tea, coffee, silk, 
&c. Increase of exports. Telegraphs. 

Generally. — ^A slowly-growing desire of late to treat India equitably, 
and as a country held in trust. Good intentions. 

No nation on the face of the earth has ever had the opportunity of 
achieving such a glorious work as this. I hope in this credit side of the 
account I have done no injustice, and if I have omitted any item which 
anyone may think of importance, I shall have the greatest pleasure in 
inserting it. I appreciate, and so do my countrymen, what Ikigland has 
done for India, and I know that it is only in British hands that her 
regeneration can be accomplished. Now for the debit side. 

Dr. — In the Cause of Humanity, — ^Nothing. Everything, therefore, is 
in your favour under this head. 

In the Cause of Civilization, — As I have said already, there has been a 
failure to do as much as might have been done, but I put nothing to the 
debit. Much has been done, or I should not be standing here this 

Politically.— "Re^^Ated breach of pledges to give the natives a fair and 
reasonable share in the higher administration of their own country, which 
has much shaken confidence in the good faith of the British word. Poli- 
tical aspirations and the legitimate claim to have a reasonable voice in 
the legislation and the imposition .and disbursement of taxes, met to a 
very slight degree, thus treating the natives of India not as British sub- 
jects, to whom representation is a birthright. 

[I stop here a moment to say a word as to a mistake into which my 
friend, Mr. Hyde Clarke, fell, in supposing that I desired the govern- 
ment of India to be at once transferred to the natives. In my belief a 
greater calamity could not beftJl India than for England to go away and 
leave her to herself.] 

Consequent on the above, an utter disregard of the feelings and views 
of the natives. The great moral evil of the drain of the wisdom of prac- 
tical administration and statesmanship, leaving none to guide the rising 
generation. (Here, again, have I been misunderstood. I complain not 
of Englishmen returning to their own country, but of the whole adminis- 
tration being kept entirely m English hands, so that none of the natives 
are brought up to and taught the responsibilities and duties of office, so 
that we have none amongst ourselves to guide us as our elders, and to 
teach us our duties as citizens and as moral beings. A foster-mother or 
nurse will never supply the place of the real mother, unless she shows 

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more kindness and attention to her charge than the real mother, and the 
natives will therefore naturally follow their own leaders, nnless yott 
prove more kind, humane, and considerate. Draw these leaders on your 
side.) The indifference to India, even of a large portion of those who have 
had an Indian career, and who are living on Indian pensions. The cul- 
pable indifference of a large portion of the people, ^e public press, and 
Parliament of this country to the interests of India ; therefore, periodical 
committees of inquiry are absolutely necessary, for the knowledge that 
such will take place would be a check on careless administration. With 
regard to the native States, though their system is improving, it is most 
unjust that their cases should be decided in secret. The frequent change 
of ofUcials is a constant source of disturbance in policy, and though it 
may be unavoidable, it is none the less hard upon India. 

Financially. — All attention is engrossed in devising new modes of 
taxation, without any adequate effort to increase the means of the people 
to pay ; and the consequent vexation and oppressiveness of the taxes im- 
posed, imperial and local. Inequitable financial relations between Eng- 
land and India, i, e. the political debt of 100,000,000Z. clapped on India's 
shoulders, and all home charges also, though the British exchequer con- 
tributes nearly 3,000,000Z. to the expenses of the colonies. The crushing 
and economically rude and unintelligent policy of making the present 
generation pay the whole cost of public works for the benefit of the 
future, inst^ of making the political like all other machinery, and dis- 
tributing the weight so as to make a small power lift a large weight by 
the aid of time. The results of trying to produce something out of 
nothing, of the want of intelligent adaptation of financial machinery, and 
of much reckless expenditure; in financial embarrassments, and deep 
discontent of the people. 

Materially. — ^^The political drain, up to this time, from India to Eng- 
land, of above 500,000,000Z., at the lowest computation, in principal 
alone, which with interest would be some thousands of millions. The 
farther continuation of this drain at the rate, at present, of above 
12,000,000Z., with a tendency to increase. (I do not mean this as a com- 
plaint ; yon must have a return for the services rendered to India, but 
let us have the means of paying. If I have a manager to whom I pay 
lOOOZ. a year, and he only makes the business produce 400Z., so that 
6007. a year must be paid him out of capital, any man of business can see 
what wHl be the result. Peace and order will soon be completely esta- 
blished by tiie closing of the concern.) 

The consequent continuous impoverishment and exhaustion of the 
country, except so far as it has been very partially relieved and re- 
plenished by the railway and irrigation loans, and the windfall of the 
consequences of the American war, since 1860. Even with this relief, 
the material condition of India is such that the great mass of the poor 
people have hardly 2d. a day and a few rags, or a scanty subsistence. 

The famines that were in their power to prevent, if they had done 
their duty, as a good and intelligent Government. The policy adopted 
during the last Mteen years of building railways, irrigation works, &c., 
is hopeful, has already resulted in much good to your credit, and if per^ 
severed in, gratitude and contentment will follow. 

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Contra, — ^Increase of exports; loss of mannfactnring indastry and 
skill. Here I end the debit side. 

Abont Sir A. Cotton's remarks I would just say this. Suppose rice 
conld be got at the shipping ports in India at 6«. a cwt, and transit to 
this country cost 2«. more, the price at which people here get it is only 
about 9«., and not that people here pay 248. for which in India natives 
pay only Ga. If it were so, if English people would be kind enough to 
give us 24«. or 18«. for what in India fetches 6«., we shall be very thank- 
ful, and rich in a very short time. Again, if an article costs 6«. here, 
and takes Is, transit to India, the people in India have not to pay one- 
third (or 2«. only) of what you pay for them, but have to pay with ordi- 
nary profit 7 8, for the article. What I suppose Sir A. Cotton means is, 
that for certain necessities of existence here you require somewhat more 
material, and therefore more money, than in India. That is true ; but 
what I maintain is, that comparatively less as the absolute wants of 
natives may be, these have not even been sufficiently supplied. It must 
also be remembered that the wants of the natives of Northern India are 
greater than in Southern India. But to say that the natives of India 
would not like to enjoy as much the good things of this world as any 
other people, is neither fact nor nature. See the manner in which the 
rich Hindoos and Mahommedans of Bombay Hve. 

It is sometimes said that loans beget waste. I cannot see how money 
of loans can have waste in its character more than money from revenua 
The right horse to saddle with waste is the officer who wastes, and 
not that the money is a loan. A wasteful officer would as much waste 
money from revenue as from loans. The condemnation of waste must be 
in the administrative system and men, and not in the source from which 
money comes. 

With regard to exports being merely surplus produce, there cannot be 
a greater mistake thiui that which was advanced by one speaker, that a 
country could not export anything until all her own people were fed. A 
country might not consume a farthing's worth of its own produce, but 
might send it all away, and, getting in return what was more valuable, 
become wealthy and happy. Surplus has nothing to do with it. England 
formerly tried by forcible means to keep her own produce at home, but 
now she got com from all the world. To sum up tiie whole, the British 
rule has been — ^morally, a great blessing ;. politically, peace and order on 
one hand, blunders on the other ; materially, impoverishment (relieved 
as far as the railway and other loans go). The natives call the British 
system '^ Sakar ki Chun," the knife of sugar. That is to say, there is no 
oppression, it is all smooth and sweet, but it is the knife, notwithstanding. 
I mention this that you should know these feelings. Our great misfor^ 
tune is that you do not know our wants. When you will kaow our real 
wishes, I have not the least doubt that you would do justice. The genius 
and spirit of the British people is fair play and justice. The great pro^ 
blems before the English statesmen are two. 1. To make the foreign 
rule self-supporting, either by returning to India, in some shape or 
other, the wealth that has been, and is being, drawn from it, or by stop- 
ping that drain in some way till India is so fur improved in its material 
condition as to be able to produce enough for its own ordinary wants 

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and the eztraordinftry ones of a costly distant role. If yon cannot feel 
yourself actuated by the high and noble ambition' of the amelioration ot 
200,000,000 of human beings, let your self-interest suggest to you to 
take care of the bird that gives the golden egg of 12,000,000Z. a year to 
your nation, and provisions to thousands of your people of all classes. In 
the name of humanity, I implore our rulers to make up their minds not 
to prevent the restoration of ^'the equilibrium, after the continuous ex- 
haustion by drain and by horrible famines. I do not in the least grudge 
any legitimate benefit England may derive for its rule in India. On the 
contrary, I am thankful for its invaluable moral benefits ; but it is the 
further duty of England to give us such a government, and all the benefit 
of its power and credit, as to enable us to pay, without starving or dying 
by famine, the tribute or price for the rule. 2. How to satisfy reasonably 
the growing political aspirations and just rights of a people called British 
subjects, to have a fair share in the administration and legislation of 
their own country. If the Select Committee solve these two problems, 
before which all other difficulties, financial or others, are as nothing, they 
will deserve the blessings of 200,000,000 of the human race. 

The Chaibhan said he would not detain the meeting by any attempt 
to sum up the discussion, but there were one or two results which it 
might be useful to bear in mind. In the first place, there seemed a pretty 
general consent that, during the last few years, England had been trying 
to do her duty to India ; that the way had been discovered by which 
India could be made such a x>art of the British empire as would strengthen 
both England and herself, and that the chief reasonable complaint was, 
that what was necessary to the end had not been done to the proper ex- 
tent. When a large population like that of India began to be animated 
by one set of feelings and aspirations, they would feel, as all felt in Eng- 
land, that the performance of to-day was always insufficient for the hopes 
of to-morrow, and that you must continually endeavour to do more than 
your fathers have done if you would come up to the reasonable expecta- 
tions of your children. For this reason there was no doubt room for a 
much greater demand upon England than she had hitherto been in the 
habit of considering she could be fairly called upon to meet. But what 
was the demand ? Mr. Naoroji had said he believed the desire of English- 
men was to rule others as they would be ruled themselves, and he asked 
no more. But while such were the wishes and feelings of England, there 
was a material shortcoming in her performances, owing, as he believed, 
in great measure, to the habit of measuring what had been done by the 
limited area of our own country. We ought to go farther in the same 
path we had recently been following. For every mile of railway there 
ought to be ten, and for every mile of canal a hundred, and then it might 
be hoped that Lidia would begin to approach more nearly to the condition 
of America, and we might be as go-aJiead in India as our cousins in the 
West. Nor was this an unreasonable expectation, as fieir as he could see. 
The development of India's commerce had hardly begun, and he felt every 
confidence that the younger members of his audience would see the day 
when what was thought tiie great performances of to-day would be looked 
back upon as something extremely small. Above all, it must be remem- 
bered Uiat when England was asked to lend money to India, it was not 

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in the way of charity, bnt in the way of business, and more than the 
average profit of home investments would be returned ; so that the bar- 
gain was likely to be beneficial in a high degree to both parties. One 
great difficulty was, that we did not yet sufficiently know what was re- 
quired, for we were but poorly informed of the wants of those whose voice 
was not heard in the council of the nation. He was glad to see, however, 
that the House of Commons was beginning to call upon the rulers of 
India to give an account of their stewardship, and the more of this there 
was the better. Another great want was, that the natives should have 
more voice in the passing of the laws by which they were governed ; and 
he must say the experiment in this direction made* by the admission of 
natives to the Legislative Councils had been most successful so far as it 
went, though that was much short of what could be desired. In con- 
clusion, he proposed a cordial vote of thanks to Mr. Dadabhai Naoroji for 
his able and eloquent paper. 

A vote of thanks was also passed to the Chairman for his kindness 
in presiding at the adjourned discussion, and the proceedings then 


For the Adjourned Diecussion on the Address read hy Sir Charles Trevelyan^ 
on 27th My, 1870, on "The Finances of India."* 

Sia CHARLES TREVELYAN, K.C.B., Viok-Pebsidknt, in the Chair. 

Chairman. — ^We are met here to resume the consideration of a paper 
which was read by myself before a meeting of this Association in this 
room on the 27tb of July last. I shall ever feel grateful for the patience 
and attention which was given to that paper, and I wiU endeavour to 
show my gratitude by not taking up time by any preliminary remarks. 
I will only observe that I have received a note from Sir William 
Mansfield, in which he says, " I have received a card from Mr. Dadabhai 
Naoroji from the East India Association as if I were a member ; this, I 
am not, but I have no objection to be one if you would kindly ^ke tiie 
necessary steps to have me elected ; but the fact of unmembership wiU 
not, I fear, permit my presence to-day to support you in the chair." I 
told him, in reply, that I should have much pleasure in proposing him as 
a member, and I should hope, with the consent of the Council, as a Vice- 
President of the Association, for he is armed at aU points, not merely as 
a soldier, but as a civilian. I also said that I was sure, whether member 
or not member, you would all be happy to see him here to-day. How- 
ever, I suppose engagements at the War Office have prevented his coming. 

Letters of regret for being unable to attend were also received from 
Mr. L. Bowring and Mr. C. Home. 

Sir Charles Wingfibld. — As I moved the adjournment, I believe 
the privilege of opening the discussion to-day rests with me. I quite 

» See p. 278, No. 4 of vol. iv. 

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agree in the opinion Sir Charles Trevelyan has expressed with regard to 
the employment of natives. In the first place it is our duty, I think, to 
give the people of the country a large share in its administration ; se- 
condly, I know many natiyes who are just as competent to have the 
charge of districts, in point of integrity and ability, as any European ; 
and thirdly, the employment of natives leads to economy, because it is 
not necessary to pay natives for work in their own country such large 
salaries as you pay to Europeans to leave their own country. I also 
quite agree with the views Sir Charles Trevelyan has expressed on taxa- 
tion. I believe direct taxation to be very uncongenial to the feelings of 
the natives of India. I know there are some who advocate direct taxa- 
tion, pleading in favour of it the example of native rulers. Now, I do not 
consider the example of native rulers is one always worthy of imitation 
by the British Government; and I think it will be found that those 
native rulers who resorted most to direct taxation were regarded as 
oppressors, while those were the most popular who abstained most from 
it. I believe that what is called direct taxation, under native rulers, 
was never systematized at all, but was in the nature of squeezes. I am 
sure that Sir Charles Trevelyan himself has earned the thanks of the 
people of India in resisting the reimposition of the income-tax when the 
five years for which it was enacted by Mr. Wilson had expired. Sir 
Charles Trevelyan resisted its reimposition against the wish of the Secre- 
tary of State and Lord Lawrence ; and if the course they recommended 
of re-enacting this tax had been adopted, it would have been regarded by 
the people of India as an artifice to disguise a breach of faith. I now 
come to Sir Charles Trevelyan's views on the financial question. He 
complains of the over-centralization and needless checks now existing, 
and he advocates a localization of income and expenditure. In pur- 
suance of this principle he would make the civil administration a first 
charge upon the revenues of a province, and then allow the Supreme 
Crovemment to draw ratably on the surplus for the expenses of Imperial 
administration, t. 6. the army, debt, diplomacy, and home charges. In 
this I entirely agree. I think the army especially should be treated as 
a charge to be defrayed from the revenues of India proportionally. It is 
impossible to say what part of India the army guards more than another ; 
the troops in the Punjab preserve peace in Bengal and Madras. But 
there is another point on which some definition is required— m. what is 
to be considered the revenue of a province, because at present there is 
great anomaly. Bengal takes credit for all the opium sold in Calcutta, 
though a great part of it is grown in the North- Western Provinces and 
Oudh. Again, all the salt revenue levied in Upper India is credited to 
the North-Westem Provinces and the Central Provinces, merely because 
the customs line runs through them, though 11,500,000 people in Oudh 
consume duty-paid salt. Tou must have a fair estimate of the revenues 
of each province. But the better plan perhaps would be for the Supreme 
GU>vemment to take the salt customs and opium revenues and then call 
on the provinces to contribute ratably for any deficiency; then the 
. revenues of each province would consist of money really paid by the 
population of the province. According to Sir Charles Trevelyan's plan 
the balance of the revenues of a province, after defraying the Imperial 

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charges, is to be spent on the province. So far as to its being spent on 
the province I entirely agree with Sir Charles Trevelyan. This wonld 
be an incentive to economy. Nothing can be more disconraging to the 
ruler and people of an economically governed province than to see the 
fruits of their thrifty administration spent on less economical provinces. 
I have often had it said to me when advocating retrenchment, '* What- 
ever we save is so much the more spent on the Punjab or Central Pro- 
vinces." But I regret to say that I do not concur in the proposal of Sir 
Charles Trevelyan to withdraw the control of the Supreme Government 
over the expenditure of the surplus, and leave the Local Grovemments 
to spend it as they think best. I quite admit that the Public Works 
Department is somewhat overbearing, too regardless of the views of 
the Local Governments, and too much disposed to interfere with plans 
and estimates; but I think this tendency on the part of the Public 
Works Department might be checked, without at the same time curtail- 
ing the authority of the Supreme Government. I think the present 
system, which requires the sanction of the Supreme Government to all 
important works undertaken by the Local Grovemments, is a sound one, 
and the only check on visionary schemes and wasteful expenditure. I 
am inclined to think the Local Governments are not so likely to exercise 
a sound judgment and discretion in the selection of works as the Supreme 
Government, because they have not the same wide responsibilities and 
interests in view, and would be more apt to be swayed by enthusiastic 
liubordinates, and led away by particular fancies, without regard to the 
wants of the empire at large. There would be no coherence or unifoi^ 
mity in their pkns. One Local Government would be for railways, an- 
other for canals, another for tramways, and a fourth for metalled roads ; 
one governor would pursue a plan of public works opposed to that of a 
neighbouring governor, or of his own predecessor. Sir Charles Tre- 
velyan complained of the purchase of the Elphinstone Land Company 
by the Bombay Government. I do not know whether that was a good 
purchase or not ; but, supposing it was a bad one, the evil would not 
have been prevented by the plan he proposed, of leaving full power of 
selection to the Local Governments, because this transaction was sanc- 
tioned by the Supreme Government wholly at the instance of the Bombay 
Government. I think Sir Charles Trevelyan would himself admit that 
he was hardly correct in saying that the rulers of Local Governments in 
India are as fit to be intrusted with self-government as the rulers of the 
British Colonies, because, surely it is not the rulers, but the colonists, 
who are intrusted with self-government. The rulers of those colonies are 
like constitutional sovereigns — they cannot spend any money of their own 
will. Nor can I agree with Sir Charles Trevelyan that the distinction 
between productive and unproductive works should be dropped as a 
doctrinaire fancy ; on the contrary, I hold with Sir Stafford Northcote 
that only such works as are remunerative should be provided for by loan, 
that is, works which may fairly be expected to yield a return equal to 
the interest on the money borrowed. There seems, indeed, at present 
no prospect of some of the railways, for which we have borrowed money, 
ever yielding such a return. Unless this principle be adhered to there 
will be no safeguard against profuse expenditure. Money will be bor- 

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rowed for every work that a fervid imagination can picture as productive. 
All roads will be said to be remunerative, because they are the means 
of bringing produce to market, and thereby stimulating production. The 
fiame reasoning will apply to court-houses, gaols, and police, because the 
suppression of crime and administration of justice give security to peaceful 
industry. Every project will be portrayed in glowing terms, reminding 
ns of the prospectuses in times of speculative excitement in the Money 
Market. Sir Charles Trevelyan himself says — " Public works are ex- 
cellent things, but financial integrity and safety are still more important." 
In this sentiment I entirely concur ; but I do not think financial integrity 
and safety would be secured by the adoption of a system which would do 
away with the only test that prudent men of business apply to judge of 
the soundness of any undertaMng. I think what Mr. Massey said on this 
subject is very true. He said, a plausible pretext can always be foimd 
for transferring charges from revenue to capital. How long such a system 
could go on I do not know, but sooner or later it would end in the col- 
lapse of public credit. Sir Charles Trevelyan, quoting Mr. Gladstone as 
his authority, puts forward as an argument against the income-tax that 
it relaxes the economical check. This argument, it seems to me, applies 
with equal force to indiscriminate borrowing. Nor can I give my un- 
qualified assent to the proposition that when once a work is determined 
on it should be proceeded with as rapidly as possible. This might lead 
to great additional expense, because in many parts of the country labour 
is scarce, and if a work were to be completed at once labour and pro- 
visions would have to be imported fipom a distance. I do not ^ow 
whether Sir Charles Trevelyan approves of a scheme that was sketched 
in a paper read to this Association by Sir Bartle Frere, but I rather 
gather from his address that he does. According to that scheme, 
trustees, under Act of Parliament, are to raise a large sum of money in 
this country, and the Local Governments of India are to be empowered 
to borrow money for public works from those trustees on the security of 
their revenues without requiring the sanction of the Supreme Government 
to the particular work. This scheme is based on the supposed analogy 
of the practice of landowners and municipalities in this country. Now I 
affirm, without fear of contradiction, that no landowner in tins country 
ever borrows money for the improvement of his estate without first obtain- 
ing the consent of his tenants to such an enhancement of their rent as will 
cover the interest on the money borrowed. That you cannot get in India. 
And as regards towns, the work is determined on and the expenditure 
sanctioned by the ratepayers, or their representatives. Therefore, it 
appears to me that the supposed analogy entirely fails ; and if I have 
objected to the scheme of Sir C. Trevelyan, I object far more strongly to 
this. True, Sir Bartle Frere afterwards goes on to say that the consent 
of the Supreme Government must be obtained to the Local Government 
pledging any portion of its revenues, or the proceeds of a particular tax ; 
but is it conceivable that either the Supreme Government or the Home 
Government, which is to provide interest on the money raised by the 
trustees, would ever allow themselves to be made responsible for expen- 
diture on projects over the selection of which they are allowed no control 
at all ? Either the Supreme Government or the Home Government are 

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to be overridden, or tlie plan comes to nothing. Then there is another 
point which has to be looked at. Those great sums which have been 
lent to the Government of India have been lent on the security of the 
entire revenues of India; and confidence in that security would be 
rudely shaken if the Local Governments were allowed to alienate' the 
revenues of India piecemeal. I hold that the control of the entire 
revenues of India must rest with the Grovemment of India, subject to the 
Secretary of State, to be entirely in the hands of the Government of India 
in the event of any great emergency occurring. This plan of Sir Bartle 
Frere's appears to be rather one of disintegration than of decentralization 
of finance. Sir Charles Trevelyan says, what India wants is cheap 
capital, and this also is the panacea of my friend Mr. Dadabhai Naoroji. 
I say India has had cheap capital ; I call 5 per cent, cheap. No doubt 
a great deal more could be usefidly employed. The only question is, 
how much more can India pay interest on? A nation, like an indi- 
vidual, ought not to buy more than it can pay for ; and seeing that for 
the four years ending 1869 the expenditure exceeded the revenue by 
6,000,000Z., India has been buying rather more capital for public works 
than it could afford. Then as to the speed at which the railways are 
to be carried on, I am satisfied with the rate of progress the Grovemment 
of India proposes — that is, to spend 100,000,000Z. in thirty years. I 
think the principle they have laid down is a sound one ; namely, to 
limit the amount borrowed by the sum that can be spared annually out 
of the revenues to meet the charge for interest, and, as the receipts from 
existing lines increase, and the aggregate charge for interest diminishes, 
to bring forward new loans, so as to keep the annual charge for interest 
within a certain amount. If you depart from this principle you must 
charge interest to capital, a vicious system which is not now sJlowed in 
the case of companies who bring bills before Parliament ; or else you must 
do what is much the same thing — borrow money to provide the interest, a 
course that would very soon bring the credit of India to the level of that 
of Egypt or Turkey. It appears to me that it is of the highest importance 
that the Government of India should preserve its credit at its present high 
state, because you can never feel sure that some great emergency will not 
arise, when it will be necessary to raise money on Indian credit in this 
country. If we had discounted all our credit before the mutiny, we 
should have had to issue stock to the amount of 80,000,000Z. instesid of 
40,000,000Z. to put down the mutiny. Then, as to ttie magnificent pro- 
mises of direct and indirect return from public works in India, so con- 
stantly held out to us, all I can say is, that experience does not bear them 
out The Government of India have stated it distinctly, as the result of 
their deliberate opinion and experience, that a line of railway, well selected 
and economically made, may be expected to yield returns equal to the 
interest on its cost within from ten to fifteen years from the completion 
of its entire length, and not before. Then take the Ganges Canal, which 
was finished seventeen years ago. It paid 5 per cent. &r the first time 
in 1869. If interest during those fifteen years had been charged to capital, 
it would not pay 6 per cent, for a long time to come. Then, as to indirect 
returns, take the district which I have known very intimately — Mozuffun- 
nugger ; a canal runs through that district which has been in operation 

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seventeen years. Quite recently I have read that the assessment in that 
district is under revision, and they are fixing precisely the same revenue 
rates which they adopted thirty years ago before the canal was commenced. 
The district of Goruckpore, in Upper India, a district which I know well, 
has yielded at re-settlement the most sensible increase to the revenue of 
all the districts in the North- Western Provinces. In that district, con- 
sisting of 6000 square miles, there is not a canal, nor fifty miles of 
metalled road. What is the cause of the increase ? Simply that a great deal 
of waste land has been brought under cultivation. We hear of the enormous 
returns of the Madras canals, but it has been stated by Mr. Smollett, I 
think, that they are made up by crediting to the canal the land-tax of all 
the land brought imder cultivation, and do not ponsist of the water-rate 
merely, whereas that land would probably, as we have seen elsewhere, have 
been brought under cultivation under any circumstances. I hear of great 
projects of canals in Oudh, a country in two-thirds of which water is to 
be found within five or six feet of the surface, where there are abundant 
facilities for irrigation from tanks ; a country in which famine is never 
known. I am perfectly certain that those canals will never yield 6 per 
cent. The Government of India admit themselves that they have no faith 
in the profits of irrigation canals, for last year they brought in a Bill to 
levy a tax at the rate of 7 per cent, on the capital spent on canals from 
the owners of the land, within the reach of irrigation, though they should 
not use the water. I affirm, then, that works of public utility are very 
slow to yield any return in India, and we should regulate our expenditure 
accordingly. I think the opinion expressed by the Government of India 
on this point, and approved of by the Secretary of State, is pregnant with 
truth. They say, blindly to enter into schemes of railway extension, 
without considering the financial results, but trusting to the growth of the 
Indian revenues to meet the charges for interest, is a course which cannot 
be seriously discussed by those responsible for the finances of India. A 
Uw words on the recent decentralization order of the Government of 
India, on which I spoke at some length in the House of Commons. It 
appears to me to be good, as far as it goes, but it goes a very little way. 
Sir 0. Trevelyan asks, and in that I agree with him, that some control 
should be given to the Local Grovemments over their surplus receipts. 
Now, this plan gives them none — it simply gives them control over a 
certain allotted amount of expenditure — that is to say, that whereas 
formerly they had to get sanction in their budgets to the expenditure 
on each particular service, they can henceforth distribute the gross sum 
allotted as they please. Then what can be more absurd than to take one 
year and stereotype the grants of that year as the limit of all your future 
contributions from the Imperial revenuea One province would require 
one year more than another, and another year less than another ; but here 
a fast Une is drawn at 1869-70. What the Local Governments ask for, and 
what I and Sir Charles Trevelyan think it is only reasonable that they 
should have, is, that the surplus left after defraying the cost of their civil 
administration and the Imperial charges, they shoiLld be allowed to spend 
in the province, that it should not be diverted to other provinces. I have 
been obHged to express my dissent from some of the recommendJa,tions 
and views expressed by Sir Cbarles Trevelyan in his paper. Now that 

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we have a Committee of the House of Commons on Indian finance, the 
views of those who agree with Sir Charles Trevelyan, and of those who 
agree with him partly, or dissent from him, will receive full consideration. 
I must add, and I hope nothing I have said will lead anyone to suppose 
that I think otherwise, that any recommendation coming from Sir Charles 
Trevelyan is entitled to the highest consideration and attention, because 
Sir Charles Trevelyan has shown, in a most marked manner, in the course 
of his official career, that no personal consideration will deter him from 
denouncing any measure which he believes to be unjust or dangerous ; 
and therefore we have the strongest possible guarantee that any views he 
expresses are founded on deep conviction, and we know that they are 
on wide knowledge and experience. 

Mr. Smollett. — Everyone who knows me must know that I take a 
deep interest in the finances of India, I therefore need not apologize for 
detaining you by making a few general remarks ; and I hope I shall not 
exceed ten minutes, though ten minutes is a very short time in which to 
discuss such a subject. 

Chaibman. — ^Mr. Smollett's remarks are always so valuable that we 
would gladly give him more law than that. 

Mr. Smollett. — In Jime last Sir Bartle Frere read a paper to this 
Association on what he considered was the collapse of credit in India. 
The impecuniosity of the Indian Grovemment he attributed almost entirely 
to gross mismanagement in the Public Works Department. The Public 
Works Department is an enormous department of the Indian Grovem- 
ment ; I believe the salaries of its officials and its servants would break 
the back of nearly a million sterling per annum. Now, that department 
not only superintends the ordinary repairs of Government edifices and 
other public works, but it is intended to supervise the expenditure of four 
or five millions sterling annually on what are termed, but falsely termed, 
reproductive works. Sir Bartle Frere proposed to relieve the Governor- 
General of India and the Secretary of State for India of all responsibility 
for the outlay of this sum, and to vest the responsibility of the expendi- 
ture in a paid Board of Commissioners sitting in some back street in 
London. Now, I protest against this scheme ; I protest against relieving 
the Governor-General of India of what is one of his most important duties. 
Former Governor-Generals (Lord EUenborough, Lord DsJhousie, Lord 
William Bentinck), were their own financiers. Now we attempt to relieve 
the GrOvemor^Greneral of all responsibility as regards finances by sending 
out a Finance Minister from this country. Mr. Massey, Mr. Laing, and 
Mr. Wilson, have made a great mess of Indian finance. Former Gover- 
nor-Generals used to be their own law-makers, with the assistance of the 
Advocate-Greneral. Now we send a man with a salary of 10,000Z. op 
12,000Z. a year, who makes Acts of Parliament by the mile. I would hold 
the Governor-General responsible for almost all the acts of the Indian 
Government, and relieve them of their Finance Minister and their law- 
maker from England. The proposed Board sitting in this country would 
be, in my opinion, a perfect nuisance. The paper read by Sir Charles Tre- 
velyan to tlus Association is a very able, a very comprehensive, and a very 
perspicuous document. It puts the saddle on the right horse — it declares 
that the vice of our Indian Government is extravagance. ^ Charles 

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Trevelyan conclusively shows that every department of Indian adminis- 
tration is tainted with what he would call a profuse, but what I call a pro- 
fligate, expenditure of the public money. Sir Charles Trevelyan, having 
filled a very important position in ludia himself, treats lightly and 
speaks kindly of Indian administration. He says the Eoyal Administra- 
tion of India, since the East India Company was superseded, has been 
high-minded, open-handed, munificent, yet untainted with vulgar jobbery. 
Those are brave terms, but in my humble judgment they do not correctly 
describe the result of the administration during the last eight or ten 
years, for the fects recited by Sir Charles Trevelyan himself do not justify 
those terms. He spoke of two millions of money having been voted for 
that Bombay reclamation scheme which was referred to by the gentle- 
man who last addressed the meeting. I think that was a great job. Sir 
Charles Trevelyan also spoke of half ^ million being absolutely wasted in 
making a railway to an imaginary port called Fort Canning. Sir Charles 
Trevelyan spoke in reprobation of a sum of money comprised in the last 
Budget of Sir Eichard Temple for buying the canal in Cuttack. I had 
the honour of a seat in the House of Commons when that job was being 
perpetrated, and I endeavoured to expose it and to prevent it. I brought 
forward a motion of censure in the House of Commons, in which I got 
very little support. I showed that that company had spent the whole of 
their capital and had not got a single shilling of return. I showed that that 
company was devoid of credit, for no one would lend them a shilling on 
their works now that they were made ; and I protested against the concern 
being bought at a premium when the shares had been at 25 per cent, 
discount in the London market, and unsaleable at that price. But that 
company had got some political and some vulgar support. At the head 
of it was the gentleman who is now the bottle-holder of the Premier in 
the House of Commons, the hon. member for Perth, and he had interest 
enough to get the Government to purchase that undertaking, not at 25 per 
cent, discount, but at par, and not only were the company paid the whole 
of the money which they had disbursed, but 5 per cent, from the time of 
its disbursement, and 120,000Z. was paid to the directors and the secretary 
to make everything smooth and pleasant. 

A VoiOB.— 56,000Z., I think. 

Mr. Smollett. — Whatever it was, it was to make things smooth and 
pleasant. That I think was a gross political job. Sir Charles Trevelyan 
has spoken of a great many millions sterling being spent on barracks 
which were found uninhabitable after they were erected. Has any notice 
been taken of that by the House of Commons? On the contrary, 
the authors of it and the Governor-General, who sanctioned it, have 
been rewarded by peerages and ribbons. Sir Charles Trevelyan is well 
aware that a million of men died of absolute starvation in a province close 
to Calcutta through the sheer neglect of the o£&cials in liidia. I cannot 
help thinking, bearing these things in mind, that to speak of the Govern- 
ment as having been munificent, is an abuse of language. Eecklessness, 
incapacity, and jobbery have been, in my opinion, rife in India during the 
last eight or ten years. What, then, is the remedy ? The remedy is, as 
Sir Charles Trevelyan points out, retrenchment in every department of 
the State — retrenchment in the Civil Department, retrenchment in the 

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Military Department, retrenchment in the home expenditure, and re- 
trenchment and unsparing parsimony in that sink of corruption the 
Department of Public Works, We do not require to send out to India a 
gentleman like Mr. Massey to devise new metibods of taxation to vex the 
people of India. In 1828 the Government of this country sent out India 
the very best Governor-General, I think, they ever had — Lord William 
Bentinck. Lord William Bentinck had not got half the revenue to deal 
with that the present Government of India has ; the Government was at 
that time in great pecuniary difficulties, but by unsparing retrenchment 
he brought about a surplus, paying off a large amount of loans, and leav- 
ing a very flourishing exchequer to his successor. Any GrOvemor-GiBneral 
now, possessed of the same firmness and ability, and animated by the 
same zeal, which characterized Lord William Bentinck, might, in my 
judgment, cut down the expenditure in India by at least four millions 
sterling ; and I think, that should be folly insisted on. I have no faith 
whatever in the Committee now appointed by the House of Commons to 
inquire into this matter. Nothing has so much pleased me in the obser- 
vations made by Sir Charles Trevelyan, in the paper which we are now 
discussing, as what he says on the subject of irrigation works. He says, 
'^ Irrigation works executed in a spirit of thrift and moderation are highly 
profitable — the smaller ones especially — dams between hills, and so forth, 
but I can foresee nothing but waste and bad work in the magnificent 
programmer put forward by the present Finance Minister in the name of 
the Grovemment of India." Now, what is this programme of Sir Eichard 
Temple's ? It is to borrow 80,000,000Z. or 40,000,000^. to spend on what 
are, I repeat, falsely called works of reproduction. Those so-called 
works of reproduction I have been talking against for the last twenty 
years ; and it was because I spoke so much against them that I was 
ostracized by the authorities in India ; and this condenmation of these 
gigantic Government works is the more gratifying to me, coming as it 
does from a gentleman of Sir Charles Trevelyan's position, because cer- 
tainly when he was in India I do not think he raised his warning voice 
very powerfully in reprobation of the expenditure upon those works. 
Certain it is that the Government over which he presided, the Grovem- 
ment of Madras, is the one that is most blamable for. having circulated 
the most pernicious views as regards the profits from those works. I am 
glad, however, to see that Sir Charles Trevelyan has now shaken off the 
trammels of the Manchester politicians on this point, and that he now 
denounces the carrying on of those gigantic projects, though sanctioned 
by Colonel Strachey and Lord Lawrence. Li my judgment the Com- 
mittee will be deluged with evidence to show the great productive nature 
of those works. I believe they will be deluged with evidence to show 
that we ought to borrow 100,000,000/., if need be, in carrying out produc- 
tive works. Now, I have no objection in the world to 100,000,000Z. being 
borrowed, provided the interest be paid from the profits of the works. If 
those works would give 20, 30, or 100 per cent, per annum profit, I would 
not grudge those who lent their money to carry on these works 10 or 
15 per cent. ; but I protest against the revenues of India being made 
answerable for those loans. Let those who lend their money get their 
interest from the profits of those wonderful undertakings. 

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Mr. MATTLOfD. — ^I am afraid that what I am going to say will faXL 
rather tame after the eloquent denunciations of the gentleman on my 
right. Before I make a remark or two on some of the points embraced 
by your paper, I wish to say one word on one important point which the 
gentleman opposite glanced at, vt2. the employment of natives of India in 
the Groyemment service. I, not being a Government servant, being only 
a merchant, am not qualified to grapple with that subject, but having for 
some time occupied a position in the Legislative Council of Bengal as one 
of the outside members, and having in that capacity been associated with 
two native gentlemen, who are now dead I am sorry to say, I may say so 
fax as my experience there went, it seemed to me that the natives of India 
were very capable indeed of rendering very great service to the Govern- 
ment. Those two men were men of great intelligence and great 
information ; they rendered great service there, and they would have 
rendered great service in any deliberative assembly in the world. What 
I wish to refer to in the paper yon read, is what you said upon the 
subject of export duties upon produce, and what you said upon that most 
important question, the opium revenue. The other night I heard Mr. 
Grant Duff's speech on the Indian Budget in the House of Conmions, 
and I was glad to hear him say in reference to the question of the export 
duties that the Customs duties were retained rather on the ground of 
necessity than of principle. I have always entertained the feeling that 
the imposition of Customs duties on some articles is calculated to injure 
the commerce of India. It is generally admitted that export duties upon 
articles of produce that can be procured from other countries are very apt 
to be dangerous. Mr. M'Culloch says that such export duties are 
dangerous where the article exported, or a substitute for it, can be 
produced in other countries. I may mention that so fur back as 1857 I 
myself had an opportunity, at a meeting of the Chamber of Commerce, of 
urging upon the Government of India, who at that time were contem- 
plating doubling the duties upon rice, that that was a dangerous course. 
I had just returned from China, where I had seen the very lurge extension 
of trade between Hong Eong and Bangkok which was then taking place. 
They then doubled the duty, and since then they have doubled it and 
doubled it again, in spite of the urgent remonstrances of the merchants of 
India, headed by the Chamber of Commerce, who pressed upon the 
Government in every way the impolicy of that measure. The result has 
been that since that time large quantities of grain have been shipped to 
Ohina, not only from Bangkok, but also from Cochin China, and from the 
Mauritius. Then we know what has taken place in the case of saltpetre, 
showing the danger of the imposition of these high export duties. It was 
believed at one time that saltpetre was a monopoly of Bengal. I myself 
believed that it was so, and the Government who at first imposed an 
export duty on it of only 3 per cent, afterwards raised the export duty to 
such a rate that the chemists of Germany manufactured such large 
quantities of saltpetre from nitrate of soda brought from South America, 
that the trade of India has never been able to recover itself Now, if 
we consider the immensely increased means of intercommunication that 
there now are, not only means of intercommunication by telegraph, but 
speedy means of getting all sorts of produce to market, and when we 

No. 2, Vol. V. K 

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bear in mind that one country checks another, it mnst be obvious that 
any plan for levying enormous export duties, or even moderate export 
duties, upon produce, unless you are morally certain that you can in that 
country upon whose produce the duties are levied produce the articles 
at a rate cheaper than in any other country, must be attended with a 
very great amount of danger. With reference to the opium duty I have 
myself at different times, in this room, in letters, in newspapers, and in 
conversation with Members of Parliament and others, endeavoured, as 
far as I could, having seen a great deal of that opium trade, to point out 
the very great danger of relying upon that very productive article of 
revenue. I should hardly do so again, but that I heard Mr. Grant Dufl^ 
the other night, speaking of the revenue for the year and of a telegram 
that he had received, use these words, that '' opium had come to the 
rescue." He did not attempt, and very wisely, to account for the 
improvement in respect to opium ; it might be from the fact that prices 
had fallen, as we know very often when prices fall there is a reaction. 
However, somehow or other, there has been a considerable increase in the 
Government revenue from it ; but if the Government of India trust too 
much to that — if they believe that opium will come to the rescue per- 
manently, and relax in the smallest degree their endeavours to discover 
some other source of revenue which will supplement, or, in case of need, 
when the time has arrived, provide a substitute for, the opium revenue, I 
am sure that they will incur very great danger indeed, because all we 
hear from China shows that the increase of cultivation there has been 
very considerable indeed ) and, sooner or later, I think our Government 
will have to make up their minds to a very large reduction indeed of 
their revenue from that source. I will not attempt to enter into those 
subjects touched upon in your paper which are so familiar to me as 
questions connected with commerce. I am much more in favour of 
productive works than the gentleman on my right or some other gentle- 
men are, and I believe, if taken properly in hand, and pushed forward 
quickly and made economically, they will be a source of great advantage 
to India. It must be a matter of great gratification to us all to see, 
within the last year or^ two, three of the native princes of India coming 
forward and helping the Government to make, by lending money at a 
low rate, or by themselves making, railways ; and I believe they will find 
the benefit of it. Upon the question of decentralization, I heard the 
paper of Sir Bartle Frere witii a great deal of interest, and there 
appeared to me to be a great deal of force and truth in what he said.' 
I think in many cases the Local Governments feel where the shoe pinches, 
and they may be able to reduce expenditure in a way that the Central 
Government, with the enormous extent of country they have under their 
rule, and the immense affairs they have under their control, may be 
unable to do. 

Mr. Taylbb. — Having spoken at the last meeting, I do not know 
whether I am in order in sp^Jdng again. 

Chairman. — ^No doubt the meeting will be glad to hear you again. 

Mr, Tayleb. — Sir, — The subjects treated of in the interesting paper 
which you have read are so various, that it is perfectly hopeless, during 
the short time afforded us for discussion, to follow it throughout ; neither 

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is it possible for me to enter upon all those points which have been touched 
upon by the speakers who have preceded me. I will /therefore merely 
offer a few remarks npon one or two matters — questions of very deep im- 
portance to us and to India, and questions upon which unfortunately th^re 
is a very great difference of opinion. The first is that which appears to 
me in reality to lie at the root of all our future hopes of India, of all pros- 
pects of success in financial administration, and of all the blessings which 
may be expected from the Almighty on our dealings with the great 
empire of India, and that is the condition of the people. I read with sur- 
prise but at the same time with great gratification, if your statements can 
be substantiated, this account of the ryots, or peasantry, of India. You 
say wages had risen from two annas a day, which was the old rate, to 
eight annas a day ; and then you say — I will here quote your words : — 
** But the most remarkable improvement is in the agricultural population 
of peasant proprietors, and their families and dependents, who form the 
great bulk of die inhabitants of India. They have become emancipated 
from the village money-lenders, to whom they have been' enthralled time 
out of nund. They have been elevated to a state of physical ease and 
abundance, so that the time has now obviously come for commencing their 
education and moral improvement on a comprehensive, systematic plan. 
They are now so well off, that innumerable stories are current about the 
jEancy bullocks in which they indulge, and the marriage portions they give 
to their daughters ; and Oriental imagination has even marked the change 
by the characteristic mythical ploughing with a silver ploughshare. The 
agriculturists are the only class to whom the great rise of prices has been 
pure gaiD. The merchants have had immense losses from the panic and 
collapse of trade ; the Government has lost by high salaries and prices 
what it gained by high prices ; but the peasants have kept their share, and 
their share was the largest. The result is that the poor ryot, with his 
scanty subsistence, is a thing of the past." This, sir, is a most charming 
picture. It spreads a roseate hue over the indigenous brown of the 
country ; and if it is really true, I am sure I for one shall return thanks 
from my heart and soul. But, sir, I see no authority given for the state- 
ment, at least if it is to extend over many parts of the country. At all 
events, there is on this, as on every important subject connected with India, 
an extraordinary diversity of opinion, and I do hope that, if the Committee 
of the House of Commons really does its duty, one of the subjects which 
will be taken up and carefully sifted wHl be the position of the ryot. 
Now, sir, it was only the other evening that we were told in this room 
that the great mass of the people of India were paupers, and that the ryot 
was a miserable creature, living on only 2d. a day, and content with a few 
rags to cover his nakedness. Not only is the silver ploughshare mythical, 
but the &ncy bullock is, as far as my experience goes, mythical also. I 
have seen no bnllock, at least in Bengal, bigger than a new-bom English 
calf, or the gigantic cat of the English pantomime. The people scratch 
the surface of the ground with a plough not much bigger than an Irish 
shillelagh ; they worship their cattle, and bum their manure, and the con- 
sequence is, as far as my experience goes, and from all the information I have 
ever received (except as regards partictdar places like Bombay, where there 
has been an unnatural rise in price, and consequent temporary prosperity.), 

K 2 

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the people are groimd down to the earth, and are qnite nnfit for the burden 
of taxation. But yon, sir, are a great authority ; yon have made this state- 
ment, and I do hope, for the sake of the poorer people of the country, that 
it will, on inquiry, be substantiated, for the contentment and prosperity 
of the millions of the people lie at the root of all our success in administra- 
tion, and of all our future prospects in India. Passing from that question, 
I now come to another point, on which again we find considerable difference 
of opinion, that is the question of productive and non-productive works, 
with which is connected also the result of the public works altogether. 
We have just heard very strong opinions upon that subject, more espe- 
cially with reference to irrigation, and I think it is to be regretted that 
the great Water-god, Sir Arthur Cotton, was not here that he might, of 
his own authority and from his own data, answer those remarks. I myself 
am impressed with the deep conviction that the future material prosperity 
of India is bound up in iron and in water, that is, in the extension, as far 
as it can possibly be accomplished, of cheap locomotion and transit by land 
and water, railway or canal, for man, for beast, and for produce. The ques- 
tion of irrigation has been discussed for some years past. When I was at 
Simla, seven years ago, the discussion was at its height, and then com- 
menced that violent conflict of opinion on both sides which still rages, in 
which one side says the works are utterly non-productive and ruinous, 
and the other says they are so productive and beneficial that there can be 
no prospect of future advancement without them. We have this extraor- 
dinary state of things ; works are continued before our eyes ; the water is 
distributed ; the fields are cultivated, and witnesses give evidence as to the 
advantage derived from those works; and yet up to this day we find 
opinions so antagonistic to one another as Sir Arthur Cotton's and Mr. 
Smollett's. The real value of the Committee which has been appointed 
(and I think the Association may take to itself some little satisfaction for 
having, to some extent, as far as its influence extends, forwarded the ap- 
pointment of that Committee) is not that the members will themselves 
bring any great experience to bear on the subject of their inquiry — cer^ 
tainly not such an amount of experience as you, sir, or many others who 
have spoken and written on the subject possess — but that they will have 
the power to examine witnesses, and witnesses most competent to speak 
on all those points on which there is such a difference of opinion ; and on 
that account it is that I cannot say with Mr. Smollett that I have no 
confidence in that Committee. If we have a Committee of upright, 
honourable English gentlemen, impressed, even to a small extent, with the 
importance of the subject before them, if at their disposal are placed all 
the means of examination and inquiry, why should we not confide in the 
result of that examination ? I believe it will lead to the settlement of 
many great questions of principle now floating in an atmosphere of caprice 
and fancy, and that opinions on a question of practical improvement on 
which the welfare of the country depends will no longer be tossed about 
as they now are between one controversialist and another, and such a 
result will be of infinite benefit. Having said so much on tiie subject of 
irrigation, I will simply add a few words on the question of productive 
and non-productive works and the principle on which such works ought, 
in my opinion, to. be carried out. I do not agree that there is no dis- 

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tinction between productive and non-prodnctive works. I see a great 
distinction, thongh I thoroughly agree with yon, sir, in saying that what 
are often called non-productive works are in reality productive. I think 
a barrack, if it is really a barrack and not a sun-trap, if it really conduces 
to the health of the soldier, conduces also to the reduction of expenditure, 
it is therefore beneficial, and to that extent a productive work ; but it 
is very difficult to say to what extent. I cannot calculate the lives of so 
many soldiers as having been saved, and reduce the saving of bone and 
muscle to a money value as I can the returns from a railway or a canal. I 
consider, therefore, if any Hne is to be drawn (and I thiuk, in practice, 
we must draw some line), it would be wise to draw a hard and fast line 
between those works which give a return in money and those which do 
not. I feel confident that all will arrive eventually at this conclusion, that 
non-productive works — those which do yield a return — must be paid for, 
if they are necessary, out of the revenue of the country, but that if the 
revenue cannot afford to pay for them, they ought not to be carried out at 
all. To spend millions upon enormous five-storied barracks is an absurdity, 
and the expenditure upon such works as barracks, and even gaols, is utterly 
inexcusable, unless there is a distinct available surplus to meet them. If 
there is not such a surplus, and if they are considered essentially neces- 
sary, then we must, by retrenchment in some other expenditure, meet the 
costs. But if we are ever to have any future development of India's 
resources, if there is to be such a thing as locomotion and transit provided 
for the enormous and unlimited produce of the country, we must have 
extensive works of locomotion and transit, and these must be met from 
loans. I think it perfectly absurd that the present generation should be 
burdened with taxation for works which are as productive and beneficial 
to our posterity as to ourselves. And I believe unless that principle is 
accepted we shall make very little progress in the future development of 
the country. I have selected those three questions for remark, in order 
to prevent occupying further time, because they ore questions which involve 
principles. These questions are, first, the development of the country by 
productive works, and the payment of those works by loans ; secondly, the 
payment of necessary works which are not productive out of revenue, and 
the avoidance of all expense on such works if there is not revenue sufi&cient ; 
and thirdly, the ascertainment of the real condition of the poorer classes of 
the community. Those are three great questions, in themselves sufGicient 
to occupy the whole attention of the Committee. I cannot close with- 
out congratulating the Society that you, sir, and others like you who have 
the advantage of long oficial experience, take the pains to come here and 
to record your opinions, and elicit discussion, and give your countenance 
to the efforts of a Society which, whatever it was some years ago, is now 
earnestly and conscientiously devoted to the best interests of India. 

Colonel Bathbobne. — I myself have studied for a vef y long time the 
productive resources of India, and the best mode of developing them. I 
have heard and read a good deal about taxation, and how to arrange it, and 
what power to give to one Government, and what power to give to the 
other ; but I think the whole of this shifting about of the expenditure^ 
from Government to Government is a thing tibat does not touch the root 
of the matter. I consider with Sir Charles Trevelyan that the income- 

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tax is wholly tmfitted to India, for one reason alone, that it is hateful 
to the people, and that it involves the necessity of having recourse to 
measures to enforce it which are to them perfectly detestahle. I also 
think the result shows that it utterly fsdls of what it is expected to do, 
viz, to draw fairly and proportionahly from the income of the people, for 
this reason : as I understand, the income-tax at the present moment is 2^ 
per cent., and it produces in round numbers somewhere about 1,000,0001. 
1,000,000Z. at 2^ per cent, would represent an income of 40,000,0O0Z. ; 
but while an income-tax on only 40,000,0007. is paid, we know perfectly 
well that the total taxation which the people of India pay is something 
like 50,000,000/., and consequently it is utterly absurd to suppose that 
40,000,000Z. can be the proper amount on which income-tax ^ould be 
paid, because the income taxable must be enormously in excess of what is 
taken in taxation. We have heard a great deal about productive works. 
My opinion for many years has been that the most productive work in 
India, as in any other country, is a proper land system. I believe that a 
proper land system is at the foundation of the prosperity of every State 
in this world. We know perfectly well, as a matter of fEKst, that when 
Prussia was depressed to the greatest possible extent a great statesman 
arose, who gave an effective land system to the country, and prosperity 
immediately ensued. In Ireland the great curse has been an ineffective 
land system, under which no man would invest money in land or produce, 
and the consequence was that no produce, comparatively spealang, was 
produced. Mr. Dadabhai Naoroji, in the paper which he lately read before 
the Society of Arts, points to this remarkable fact, that while the exports 
of England amount to nearly 61, lOa, a head of population, those of British 
North America to about 3Z. a head, and those of Australia to about 191, a 
head, those of India are scarcely 4«. a head. Now, I ask you as men of 
common sense, if Australia, if British North America, and if England, 
were under the same laud system as India, do you believe that their ex- 
ports would be a farthing more per head than from India ? The reason 
why England is great, and exports largely, is because under its land sys- 
tem it is able to develop its resources to tiie utmost ; and the same reason 
applies in proportion to British North America and to Australia. If 
Australia was under the same system as India, the land being let to 
tenants at will at two shillings an acre, or what you please, with a per- 
petual power of revision whenever necessary, Australia would be in the 
same condition as it was when it was in the hands of the savages. The 
foundation of the agricultural prosperity of England was the abolition of 
feudal tenures in Charles the Second's time. In your paper you refer ta 
the large expenditure of 8,000,000Z. on public works. But taking it 
ratably with the population it would amount to 800,000Z. in England. If 
anybody came here, and talked of 800,000Z. being about to be expended in 
public works, not only railways and roads, but works of irrigation, his 
hearers would burst out laughing. I suppose one firm of engineers would, 
probably, spend ten times as much in a twelvemonth. In India you do 
not find anything of that sort ; and why f Simply on account of your 
land system. You say to a gentleman who holds laud under the Govern- 
ment, "Why do not you subscribe to railways?" He would answer, 
** Why should I ? even if it passes through my land, and the value of the 

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land consequently increases, the Goyemment takes an additional tax." In 
England it is not necessary for the railways to be made by the Goyem- 
ment, but they are made by manufacturers and by landowners, to whom 
the railways axe of great benefit. We know that the yalue of land will 
rise sometimes from 407. per acre to 400Z. per acre, merely by a railway 
coming to it. If you introduce a proper land system in India, the land 
will fall by naturid grayitation into the hands of those best fitted to ayail 
themselyes of the opportunities afforded them, and the produce of India 
will be doubled and quadrupled ; you will haye no want of exports or of 
imports, eyery thing will be changed, as it always' has been under similar 
circumstances, and it neyer will be till that is done. 

JSIr. Bbiogs. — We want free trade in land. 

Chaibhan.— If no other gentleman wishes to speak, I will, with your 
permission, make a few remarks. This has been a most interesting and 
useful discussion, but it has been far too comprehensiye to be summed up 
in a few words ; and it is quite unnecessary that I should make the attempt, 
because all the proposals that haye been made, and the arguments that 
haye been adduced in support of them, will soon be subjected to the test 
of an independent and competent tribunal, the Select Committee of the 
House of Commons. I will therefore confine myself to remarking on two 
or three important circumstances which haye transpired since we last met 
in this room. The first is the appointment of the Select Committee of 
the House of Commons. We all, no doubt, should agree with Mr. Tayler 
that the adyocacy of the East India Association has had some influence in 
what I hope will result in being a great boon to India ; and, perhaps, our 
discussions may at last suggest some points for the consideration of the 
Committee. It appears to me that the House of Commons acted quite 
rightly in confining the Committee to Finance, because Finance is the 
central point of Goyemment, Eyery operation of Goyemment, legisla- 
tiye or administratiye, either begins or ends in Finance. Things at first 
sight most remote from Finance are found, on full inyestigation, to de- 
pend upon it. To what do we owe our liberties ? Why is England a free 
constitutional country ? Because the representatiyes of its popular con- 
stituencies had the power of the purse. And, if I am not mistaken, a 
proper regulation of Indian finance will result in benefits innumerable to 
the people of India. Mr. Dadabhai Naoroji, in his excellent paper, stated 
that, according to his yiew, India under our rule suffered from two great 
eyils — ^the physical drain, and, what he calls, the moral drain ; by which 
he means that able and experienced administrators, the Elphinstones and 
Metcalfes of a former generation, and the Lawrences and Freres of the 
present generation, while they are at the height of their experience and 
ability leaye India and return to England, to fill positions of more or less 
importance here. Now, if a proper system of local administration is 
established — ^if the finances of IncQa are properly decentralized — a natiye 
school of administration will be established — a training school for future 
legislators and administrators — ^a school of self-goyemment — the pupils 
of which will, in a generation or two, leaye nothing to be desired ; and 
when that end has been attained, the masters and teachers may be allowed 
to take their leaye without any injury to the country. I will not enter 
upon the question of a Joint Committee. It would be hardly respectful 

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to the House of Oommons to do so, but I regret that the co-operation of 
the House of Lords has not in some way been obtained. I watched with 
great interest the proceedings of the Committees of the House of Lords 
and the House of Commons in 1853 ; and the Committee of the House of 
Lords, comprising among its members Lord Lansdowne, Lord Ellen- 
borough, and Lord Monteagle, admirably performed its part ; and I still 
hope that in some shape or other, the large amount of talent, of public 
spirit, and public experience in the House of Lords will be brought to 
bear upon the benefit of Lidia. 

Another circumstance which has given me great pleasure has been 
our friend, Mr. Dadabhai Naoroji's paper on die Commerce of Lidia. 
It appears to me to be not only a statesmanlike and able, but a really 
original paper, reflecting great credit on the natiyes of Lidia, and full 
of promise of their future progress — a paper quite worthy to be read 
and considered by Members of &e House of Commons and of the House 
of Lords who will take part in these Indian discussions. He especially 
brings out in a very distinct manner that the object at present is to 
re-eatabliah Indian credit Everybody who knows anything of India 
must agree that substantially the finances of India are in a very satis^ 
factory state. The whole substance is there. The fault is in the mani- 
pulation — in the application. First, we have to correct the loose habit 
of expenditure which has grown up of late years since the regime of the 
old Company, who, whatever faults they may have had, were remarkable 
for their thrift. This has appeared in the profuse expenditure in the 
administration of the army ; the lax expenditure on public works ; the 
subsidizing and buying up of public companies, and the sentimental, 
and I am afraid in its root very questionable, expenditure in wholesale 
grants to native princely families. I mention these by way of instances, 
but the fact is that there is what Mr. Smollett calls a profligate, and 
what I call a profuse, habit of expenditure. That has been a distinct 
and undoubted characteristic of the Grovemment of India during the 
last few years, which has to be corrected; and I look to this Select 
Committee of the House of Commons to furnish the correction. It will 
be a perfectly independent Committee, &r above any suspicion of 
yielding to any class interest, however powerful, whether mercantile, 
military, or anything else. Whatever else it may be, or not be, this 
Committee will be superior to every vested or personal interest, and will 
give us an independent opinion. 

We shall look to this Committee for settling several great con- 
troversies. One, the question between direct and indirect taxation, which 
was discussed in my previous paper, and has now been treated with 
much ability by Mr. Maitland. Another, the question of how far public 
works should be chargeable to revenue, and how far they may properly 
be paid out of loans. On that point it appears to me that Mr. Dadabhai 
Naoroji's paper has great merit. He strongly condemns the practice of 
charging to revenue expenditure works of a class which other Qovem- 
ments, including that of England, habitually charge to capital. With 
the permission of the meeting I will read a short passage from his 
paper : — '* And, lastly, what is still worse, the withdrawal of so much 
capital, which at present is very dear, and insufficient for the ordinary 

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ivants of the production and commerce of the couutry, Ooyemment nsmg 
capital worth 9 per cent, and upwards'* (I should have put it much 
higher than that) ^' when it can easily get the same in England for 4 or 
5 per cent., causing thereby, to a poor country like India, a serious loss, 
and shutting out England from safe investments in a country which is 
imder its own control. Paying for these ordinary works from revenue, 
or from terminable loans, makes the whole difference to the people 
between being crushed by a load or carrying it with the greatest ease." 
Then he goes on to explain the cause. *' The hesitation for borrowing 
is groxmded mainly, as far as I can make out, on one reason. It is said 
England's tenure in India is uncertain, and that i^ after England lent 
a large sum, she should have to leave India, she may lose her loans." 
Then follows a great deal of sound and excellent reasoning, of which I 
will only read this sentence : — " If the Government went boldly and 
vigorously into the prosecution of all necessary public works by cheap 
loans, the production and commerce of the country, and the ability of 
the people to pay taxes, will increase ; Grovemment will be able to raise, 
with ease, larger revenue, and will be able to keep up the necessary 
strength of the army, the security by which will be further enhanced a 
hundredfold by the contentment and loyalty of the people. " But I go 
farther than this. I consider that the real security for our loans con^ 
sists in this, that our nation honestly desires the improvement of Indi% 
and applies itself, to the best of its ability, to accomplish that great 
object. The old Indian specific for improving the condition of the 
people of India was, as we all know, to drive the Feringees into the sea — 
the mutineers of 1857 may be considered as the representatives of that 
class. The modem remedy is education, free tra^e, seK-govemment, 
improved morality. We may take the Parsees as the representatives of 
enlightened industry, and the native Christians, and our Mend Keshub 
Chunder and his followers, for improved morality and religion. I hold 
strongly that if we succeed, as I believe we have to a great extent already 
succeeded, in launching India on a career of improvement on these 
principles, we are safe, both as regards our connection with India and 
the recovery of our debts from India. To improve that great continent, con- 
taining so many different nations, comprising a population of 200,000,000, 
to make roads and railways, to educate the people, to encourage them to 
embark freely in commerce and manufactures, to train them in habits of 
enlightened administration, all leading up to representative self-govern- 
ment, is not the work of a day. It will be the work of generations ; 
and while this glorious process is in progress, the dependence of the 
party of progress among the natives must be upon us. I may have 
expressed myself imperfectly, but in this direction I am persuaded is to 
be found the real security for our advances in India ; and I feel certain 
that, provided we make them judiciously, and see well to their proper 
appropriation, we may make them with the utmost confidence. 

Another great change has taken place, which has come to our know- 
ledge within the last few days — I refer to the Decentralization resolution 
of the Governor-General in Council, of the 14th December, 1870. I will 
briefly observe in explanation, that I never intended to advocate that the 
finances should be left to be administered by the Local Governments 

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without any check firom the SnpTeme GoYenunent. The change must be 
a work of time. Great care will be 'required during the transition period. 
No doubt, the principle of the change is, that those who raise the money 
should spend the money ; but they must be sufficiently intelligent and 
sufficiently organized, legislatively and administratively, all which again 
leads up to a representative system; but until the check from b^ow 
shall be firmly established, the check from above must be carefdlly 

Upon this Decentralization resolution I would remark, that it is 
highly valuable as an open recognition of the principle of self-government^ 
the principle, I mean, that it is better that each community should raise 
and spend its own money, than that this should be done for it by a 
distant and imperfectly informed authority. But, although the principle 
of this resolution is highly valuable, the application at present proposed 
to be given to that principle is crude and imperfect in the extreme. 
There are other items of administration in which the Local G<>vemments 
may be " supposed to take an interest," besides gaols, registration, police, 
education, and the medical service. Take, for instance, the great heads 
of expen^ture, " Administration and Public Departments," ^' Law and 
Justice." Then there are various arrangements under which the different 
branches of the public revenue are collected, including the costs of the 
revenue establishments, and the taxes themselves. To return to the 
words of the resolution, the people of Bengal, Madras, and Bombay may 
be " supposed to be " at least as much " interested " in the land revenue, 
the salt revenue, the forest revenue, the stamp duties, and the excise upon 
spirits and intoxicating drugs, and in the expenses and modes of collecting 
them, as they are in those limited departments of expenditure which have 
been handed over to be administered by the Local Governments. Then 
there is not only a limitation of the services to be locally administered, 
but there is also a great limitation of the fands appropriated for the 
purpose. Less than 4,60O,00OZ. is to be administered by the Local 
Governments out of 51,000,000Z., or less than 10 per cent, of the public 
revenue, and no provision is made for an increase of it—that is to say, 
less than 5,000,000Z. annually is appropriated for those particular services, 
and no provision is made for any further increase of that appropriation 
out of the general revenue. Now see what the tendency of tiiis arrange- 
ment must be. If the Local Governments wish to improve the adminich 
tration of those services, they must raise the money themselves, so that 
there will be a strong stimulus to increased taxation. Nothing is said 
about maintaining a due proportion between the two separate ^ds into 
which the public revenue has been divided. However much the 
46,000,000Z. reserved by the Supreme Government may increase^ and 
whatever additional demands may arise for a more liberal expenditure 
upon the localized services, no provision has been made for readjusting 
the proportions of the general revenue assigned to the respective objects. 
It is plain that the arrangement, in its detailed application, is based on 
no sound principle. It is impossible to dislocate either the revenue or 
the expen^ture in the manner proposed. 

The last, and to my mind, Uie most conclusive objection of all, is that 
no provision is made for placing the balance of the public revenue at the 

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disposal of the Local Goyemments. If you consider, yon will see that it 
is approfrialion of the balance which ^governs the whole subject. In the 
management of a private estate, what is the motive to improvement ? Is 
it not that the improver may benefit by the increase ? No matter what 
the charges are upon the estate, even supposing there are as many mort- 
gages as there are coats in an onion, still, if there ii^a reasonable expec- 
tation of surplus in favour of the proprietor, there the motive to improve 
exists in full force. Just in this manner the great inducement to 
improve, and to administer rightly and wisely, on the part of these Local 
Governments in India, would be that they should have the balance of the 
revenue placed at their disposal to expend in the ways which they think 
most desirable. They all of them have objects greatly at heart, and if 
they had the disposal of the balance it would furnish them with the 
strongest possible motive for economizing and improving the revenue. 
I wiH not repeat the remarks I made upon this subject in my previous 
paper, but I would ask the gentlemen now present to turn to them at 
their leisure, and then they will see clearly what I mean. They will 
find them at pages 12 to 15. The substance of what I said was that the 
real administration of India, that is, the real government of the people of 
India, resides, not in the Supreme Government, but in the Local Govern- 
ments, for which reason the income and expenditure of the Local Adminis- 
trations are not capable of definite limitation. On the other hand, the 
Supreme Government is merely for certain limited functions, so that the 
income and expenditure of the Government of India is capable of limita- 
tion. Therefore, in my opinion, the departments which are to remain 
with the Supreme Government, such as the debt, the army, diplomacy, the 
Post Office, and the telegraphs, should be carefully defined, and an annual 
appropriation should be made of the stun required for those services, 
which should be the budget of the Supreme Government, to be adminis- 
tered by it, in addition, of course, to the general supervision which the 
Supreme Government would exercise over the Local Grovemments. After 
those functions, and the appropriation required for canying them on, 
have been set aside, all the rest should be left to the Local Governments. 
That concludes all I have to say, and I thank you for the attention with 
which you have listened to me. 

On the motion of Mr. Tayleb, a vote of thanks was passed to Sir 
Charles Trevelyan. 

A vote of thanks was also passed to the Society of Arts for the use of 
their room. 

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Pbtition of the GoxmoiL of the East India. Abbooiatios, presented 
in the House of Gommona on Friday, the 17th February, 1871, 
by Sir Chablbs J. Wingfield, C.B;, K.C.S.I., MJ^. 

To the Honourable the Commons of the United 
Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in 
Parliament Assembled* 

The Humble Petition of the East India 

Association, of Ko. 20, Great George Street, 

in the City of Westminster, by the Council 

of the said Association, 

That yoTir Petitioners' Association is composed of more than One 
Thousand persons, both Europeans and Natives of India, and comprises 
Peers of the Eealm, Members of Parliament, Officers in the Army, 
Merchants and others, who have associated themselves together for the 
purpose of watching the public interests and wel&re of the inhabitants 
of Britidi India as regards all questions of importance connected 
therewith, and aiding i£e measures of Government in the work of 

That at a Meeting of the Members of your Petitioners' Association 
held on the 27th day of July, 1870, a Resolution was passed, that 
with a view to meet the present critical position of pubhc affidrs in 
India, to allay the alarm and dissatisfaction produced by the recent 
enhancement of taxation, and to place the financial administration of 
the country on a sound and satisfactory footing, your Petitioners' 
Council be requested to prepare and present an Humble Petition to 
Parliament for the appointment of Select Committees of both Houses 
of Parliament to make a searching inquiry into the general adminis- 
tration, both at home and in India, of Her Majesty's Indian territories, 
more especially in relation to the conduct of the Financial Department 
since the transfer of the Government from the late Honourable The 
East India Company to the Crown. 

Tour Petitioners therefore humbly pray that a Select 
Committee of your Honourable House may be appointed 
to make to inquiry into the general administration, 
both at home and in India, of Her Majesty's Indian 

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Petition of the council. 129 

territories, more especially in relation to the oondnct of 
the Financial Department since the transfer of the 
Government from the late Honourable The East India 
Company to the Crown. 

And your Petitioners will ever pray, &c. 

The Petition was signed by the following Members of the 
Council : — 

Field-Marshal Sir Gbobge Pollock, G.C.B., G.C.S.I., &c. 

Colonel W. H. Sykbs, M.P., Vice-Fresident. 

Edward B. Eastwiok, Esq., M.P. for Penryn and Falmouth. 

W. S. FiTzwiLLiAM, Esq. 

Lieut.-Colonel P. T. Fbekoh. 

William Taylbb, Esq. 

S. P. Low, Esq. 

Iltudus Pbichabd, Esq. 

Major-General Sir Kobbbt Wallace, K.C.S.I. 

Standish Gbovb Gbady, Esq. 

MouLvi Stbd Ameeb All 

Captain W. C. Palmbb. 

Professor Theodore Goldstuokeb, Ph.D. 

C. P. Ltjtohmbbpatht Naidoo Gaboo. 

Lord W. M. Hat, Vice^Presidefnt. 

The Dewak Eazi Shahabudin, Minister to His Highness the Eao 

of KUTOH. 

Jamshedji Jivanji Gazdab, Esq. 

Dadabhai Naoboji, Esq., Honorary Secretary. 

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Petition of the Bombay Branch of the East India Association 
praying for Lck)al Commissions to take Examinations on the 

To the Honourable the Commons of the United 
Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in 
Parliament Assembled. 

The Petition of the Members of the Bombay 
Branch of the East India Association, 

Humbly Shewbth, 

That your Petitioners have observed with satisfaction that a Com- 
mittee on the Finances of India is to be appointed this session, and your 
Petitioners submit that the scope of that inquiry should be widened so 
as to embrace generally the affairs of India. 

2. That the time for such an extended inquiry has now arrived, for it 
is now close upon twenty years since the appointment of the ^last Select 
Indian Committee of 1852, and the essential causes which necessitated 
the appointment of the Committee of 1852, as also of the preceding ones 
of 1772, 1782, 1812, and 1832 still exist, though under different forms. 
Your Petitioners submit that so great and so many have been the changes 
that have been introduced into the Indian Empire, and so vast, so various, 
and so valuable has been the experience that has been accumulated since 
the Acts of 1853 and 1858, that the present is a fit and proper oppor- 
tunity to investigate the operation of iJiose changes, and the substantive 
results that have been achieved from them, to estimate and sift all 
obtainable evidence concerning them, and with the light of past expe- 
rience, to inaugurate such a policy as the altered times have rendered 
necessary. Your Petitioners cannot here do more than indicate briefly 
some of the principal subjects which require investigation, and some 
special problems which imperatively demand solution. 

3. That it is needless to dwell here upon the great and indisput- 
able benefits that have been derived from the direct assumption by Her 
Most Gracious Majesty the Queen, of the government of Her Indian 
dominions, and the nomination of a responsible Secretary of State for 
India, assisted by a Council. The only point connected with this sub- 
ject that would seem to require consideration is, whether the composition 
of the Indian Council may not be improved by the introduction of a 
special department for Agriculture and Commerce, and the universality 
of its character completed by the appointment of a native member to 
represent native opinion and native interests. 

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4. Tliat the Legislatiye Oouncils of India established by Sir 0. 
Wood's (now Lord Halifax) Act of 1861 have also been a success, cannot 
be disputed; but the experience of the past ten years has, in your 
Petitioners' opinion, demonstrated the wisdom and necessity of providing 
for a more legitimate representation of native interests than is secured 
simply by native rank and wealth. And it is well worth inquiring, 
whether some sort of an initiative representative principle cannot be 
adopted with respect to the election of the additional members. 

5. That it is a subject of great importance and moment to determine 
whether the time is not now come, when it will be advisable largely to 
popularize municipal institutions in places where, under the present 
system, municipal Boards, with a majority of Grovemment officials, act 
without a proper feeling of responsibility, by intrusting municipal 
affairs to persons who have the confidence of the people, and, in large 
towns, are elected by the ratepayers themselves. 

6. That it is established beyond doubt that the principle of com- 
petitive examinations, introduced by the Act of 1853 for entrance into 
the Indian Civil Service, has worked most successfully and beneficially, 
and it demands serious attention whether it would not be wise to adopt, 
for the purpose of facilitating the entrance of natives into the Service, 
some other measure (like that of holding examinations in India, and 
afterwards requiring the selected candidates to proceed to England for a 
short visit) instead of the one incorporated in Clause 6 of the East 
India (Laws and Eegulations) Act, which revives the obnoxious system 
of patronage, and aims a fatal blow at the integrity of the competitive 

7. That it is a subject of equal importance to consider, whether it is 
not fair to the natives of this country, and conducive to the interests of 
the Service itself, to introduce the competitive principle in the disposal 
of Uncovenanted appointments, and, with this view, to hold periodical 
examinations in the Presidency towns. Your Petitioners observe, with 
regret and alarm, that almost all the higher Uncovenanted appointments 
in the Customs, the Police, the Eevenue Survey, the Finance, the Forest 
and the Political Departments have been conferred, on the principle of 
patronage, upon persons who are not natives of the country ; while me^ 
writerships on trifling salaries, and a few higher appointments in the 
Revenue and Judicial Departments, are all that are left to the natives. 
Independently of the fact, that the substitution of the competitive system 
would secure, as in the case of the Covenanted Civil Service, the real 
efficiency of the Uncovenanted Service itself, a larger infusion of com- 
petent native agency in the place of comparatively less efficient European 
officers would be a very desirable measure on economical grounds. 

8. That the subject of Indian Finance is causing the greatest anxiety 
to all discerning men. The spectacle of serious mismanagement in 
financial administration which has been lately exhibited, joined with the 
imposition of a new and peculiarly xmpopular tax, without any adequate 
case for increase of taxation, has evoked a spirit of discontent and dis- 
satisfaction, to allay which are required prompt and adequate measures. 
Your Petitioners trust that the whole subject of Finance and Financial 
Administration maybe thoroughly and searchingly investigated, and large 

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and statesmanlike measnres deyised, oommensnrate with the urgency of 
the occasion, and calculated to strike at the root of the evil. The whole 
country demands with one voice a broad and effective scheme of Decen- 
tralization, which, without impairing its unity by minute dismemberment, 
would allow the special peculiarities of provinces as large and various 
as some of the great countries of Europe to be properly consulted, and 
their special capabilities to be taken advantage of. The recent Decen- 
tralization Despatch, wrested by force of public opinion from the Govern- 
ment of India, though valuable in nothing else, may be considered so as 
an unwilling testimony to the universal demand for the adoption of the 
principle of Decentralization. 

9. That, besides the radical defect of over-centralization in the 
financial system indicated above, there is another potent cause disturbing 
the financial equilibrium in a most alarming manner, in the inordinate 
growth of the Military Expenditure, absorbing full one-third of the 
total revenues of India. Your Petitioners firmly believe that there can 
be no greater political and financial blunder than that of keeping a huge 
native and European army, at an enormous cost, in a country whose 
position, unlike that of tiie countries of Europe, renders it perfectly 
unnecessary to assume an armed attitude in the face of its neighbours, 
and where the only use of an armed force is to preserve internal tran- 
quillity — an object which, at a time when the feelings of loyalty and of 
appreciation of the beneficent and civilizing influences of British rule are 
getting fast and firmly ingrained into men's thoughts and convictions^ 
cannot require a European force larger than was sufficient to quell even 
the Mutiny, and a native force bigger than that whose co-operation alone 
gave that Mutiny a threatening aspect. Your Petitioners therefore sub- 
mit that this enormous drain upon the energies and resources of the 
country should be wisely and courageously checked by reducing the size 
and cast of the Indian armies to just and reasonable dimensions, and 
introducing economy in military expenditure. 

10. That, in connection witib the subject of Finance, it is needful to 
investigate and analyze what are called ihe Home Charges, and to ascer- 
tain whether the whole of some of the items, and the greater portion of 
the others, ought not, in justice and equity, to be borne by the English, 
instead of the Indian Exchequer. Your Petitioners would point out, as 
an instance, the excessive charges on account of military depdts for the 
army in India which do garrison duty in England, the whole of which 
expenditure has been saddled on the Indian Treasury since the amalga- 
mation scheme was carried into effect after the mutinies. The details of 
the expenses of the Indian Establishment in England, so out of proportion 
when compared with those of the establishment for the colonies, also 
require careful examination. And your Petitioners submit that Eng- 
land is bound, in honour and duty, to lay down some &xr and equitable 
principle on which to share the burden of expanses required for the 
mutual benefit both of itself and India. 

11. That it also demands attention whether the present system of 
excluding all natives, no matter what their rank and position may be, 
from the ranks of commanding oficers in the Army, is not radically 
unjust, and alienates the affections, and womids the pride of the military 

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classes in the ootintry. The disarmament of the whole civil popnlation 
of India to an extent which leaves large tracts of conntry exposed to the 
ravages of freebooters and wild beasts, unmans whole nations, and disables 
them, for all self-defence, is a grievance which demands serious and 
searching investigation, as, in the present juncture of afiGedrs, this policy 
of distrusting the loyalty of Her Majesty's subjects is peculiarly £ntught 
with peril to the interests of both England and India. 

12. That no question more nearly and essentially affects the whole 
well-being and prosperity of India than that of the development of its 
vast material resources ; and it is of the utmost importance to decide, 
without any further dehty, on the prosecution on economical principles 
and more thrifty management of such public works of undoubted utility 
as railways, roads, irrigation works, canals, reservoirs, &c. The subject 
of irrigation, which has been of late so mudi discussed, is one of special 
urgency, and your Petitioners trust that the awful lessons taught by the 
Amines in the Nordi- Western Provinces, Orissa and Bajpootana, within 
the short space of ten years, will not be disregarded or lost sight of. 

13. That the question of ways and means to provide for the prose* 
cntion of Public Works has been long ripe for settlement, and it is now 
high time to determine whether the cost of Public Works in a conntry 
wUch, though rich in resources, is exceedingly poor in capital, is stiU 
to be defrayed out of current revenue, or whetiier it is to be met by a 
proper system of loans and sinking funds, as is the method of England 
and Europe generally. Your Petitioners also recommend for consider- 
ation whether it were not really a just and wise as well as a generous 
poUcy to offer an Imperial guarantee for Indian loans, similar to the 
guarantees extended to Greece and Ireland, a policy, which, without 
costing really the British Exchequer anything, would be of inoalculable 
benefit to the mutual interests of both countries. 

14. That a vast deal of new experience has been acquired with respect 
to the subject of Education which also requires careful consideration, 
and the time is now arrived for a liberal and thorough revision of the 
Educational despatch of 1854. The system of grants-in-aid, inau- 
gurated by that Despatch, has been found inadequate for the require- 
ments of the country, and stands in need of being supplemented by a 
system which, without leaving unsolicited private spontaneous assistance, 
would not allow existing institutions to bo starved while waiting for 
such aid. The present expenditure on public instruction, bearing a 
ratio of only a per cent, to the total revenues of the country, is so trifling, 
that an increase of it to at least two per cent, may be considered to be 
necessary under present circumstances. The comparative claims of 
popular and high education, which have been recently so much agitated, 
vAao require to be calmly examined and fairly adjusted. 

15. That various defects in the Administration of Justice cry loudly 
for effective remedies. It is a well-known complaint that a most 
grievous delay takes place in the decision of Indian Appeals in the Priyy 
Council. Another subject, requiring grave consideration, is that of the 
administration of justice in the Mofussil by officers not trained for that 
special object. In India, the law is fast becoming technical, not in the 
sense of antiquated subtleties after their use and meaning have passed 

No. 2, Vol. V. L 

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away, but in the sense of a scientific aocnracy and definiieneas. In iMs 
state of things it is of paramount importance to weigh the merits of the 
present system, and to deliberate wheth^ it ought not to be superseded 
by a system which would require candidates for judicial posts to qualify 
themselyes in a special mannw for the proper discharge of the duties^ 
that might dcTolye on them. This problem is of still more importance^ 
when it is remembered that the exposition of the Law indirectly means 
legislation to a certiun extent. 

16. That the relations of the Native States with the British €royem- 
ment are at present carried (m in an unsatisfactory and confused manner 
owing to the want of known and well-defined international principles 
for their practical regulation. The constitution of the Political or 
Diplomatic Service requires to be organized into a proper and effective 
system, taking care to introduce in it as largely as possible educated 
native agency, without which the evil influences of the Amlah can never 
be completely counteracted. 

17. That, besides these various subjects and problems indicated 
above, there are others too numerous to be mentioned here. 

18. That your Petitioners, therefore, humbly pray that the Select 
Committee, appointed by your Honourable House to inquire into the 
Finances of India, may be directed to inquire fully into all these various 
and important subjects, and into Indian affitirs generally, and may be 
empowered to send out Local Commissions to take examinations on the 
spot, and ascertain the views of competent Europeans and Natives 
throughout India. 

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I, — Objbots op the Association. 

Artide 1. The East India Assooiation is instituted for the inde- 
pendent and disinterested advocacy and promotion, by all legitimate 
means, of the public interests and welfare of the Inhabitants of India 

n. — Membebs. 

Artide 2. The Association shall consist of Eesident and Non- 
Eesident Ordinary and Honorary Members. 

Artide 3. Honorary Members shall have the same rights and 
privileges as Ordinary Members. 

Artide 4. Honorary Members shall be nominated by the Council 
at any Ordinary Meeting, and shall consist of persons who have dis- 
tinguished themselves in promoting the good of India. 

Artide 5. Ordinary Members shall be nominated in writing by two 
Members of the Association, and elected after ten days' notice of such 
nomination, at the next General Meeting of the Council, if approved by 
a majority of two-thirds present thereat. 

Artide 6. The Election of every Member, both Ordinary and 
Honorary, shall be recorded on the Minutes of the Council ; and the 
Secretary shall forthwith notify, by letter, his election to the Member, 
and request such Member to furnish a standing order on his Banker for 
his Annual Subscription. 

Artide 7. Ordinary Members shall pay an Annual Subscription of 
£1, or 10 Es., on the 1st January in every year ; or may compound for 
the same by payment of 100 Es., or £10, which shall constitute a Life 

Note — Total Annual Subscription, including Journal (delivered free of Postage) £15 
Life Subscription ditto ditto ..14 

Annual Subsciiption (including Journal) in India .. .. 13 Rupees 8 Annas. 
Life Subscription ditto ditto .. ..150 „ 

III. — Mode op Management. 

Artide 8. The Management of the Association shall be vested in a 
Council, consisting of a Chairman, Vice-Chairman, and Thirty Ordinary 
Members; Five to form a Quorum; and Eight to retire annually by 
Rotation, but eligible for re-election at the Annual Meeting. 

Artide 9. A President of the Association shall be appointed at the 
Annual Meeting ; and the Council may, from time to time, nominate 
distinguished Indian Statesmen, or others, as Vice-Presidents, subject to 
the confirmation of the next Annual Meeting of th(3 Association. 

Artide 10. The Council shall appoint a Secretary, and such other 
Employes as may be necessary, and fix their Salaries and Emolumenta. 

Artide 11. The Council may fill up Vacancies in their own body, 
until the next Annual Meeting of the Association. 

Artide 12. The Council shall meet on the First Wednesday in the 
month ; but the Chairman, Vice-Chairman, or any three Members of the 

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Council may at any time convene a Meeting by giving tliree days* 

Article 13. The Cotmdl may appoint Special Sub-Committees of not 
less than Five Members of the Association, three of whom shall form a 

Article 14. At the desire of Five Members of the Council, or on the 
written requisition of Ten Members of the Association, thie Secretary 
shall convene a Special Meeting of the Association. 

Functions of the Officers. 

Article 15. The President, or in his absence any Vice-President, or 
in the absence thereof, any Member shall preside at the Annual or 
Ordinary Meetings of the Association. 

Article 16. The Chairman or Vice-Chairman of the Council, or in 
their absence any Member thereof nominated by those present, shall 
preside at the Meetings of the Council. 

Annual Meeting. 

Article 17. The Annual Meeting of the Association shall be held in 
, the month of May in every year. 

Article 18. General Ordinary Meetings of the Association for pro- 
moting the interests thereof, and for the discussion of subjects connected 
with India, shall be held at such times and places as the Council may 

Article 19. A statement of the Accounts of the Association shall be 
prepared, audited by one of the Members of the Council and one 
Member taken from the general body of the Members of the Society, 
and circulated with the Beport of the Council to each Besident Member 
ten days before the Annual Meeting. 

Local Committees. 
Article 20. Local Committees shall be appointed in India by Local 
Subscribers, subject to the approval of the Council ; and the co-operation 
of independent Local Associations in India is invited by the ''East 
India Association." 

Article 21. The Council shall have power to make and alter any 
Bye-laws for the Management of the Association. 

Alteration of Bulbs. 
Article 22. No addition to or alteration in these Bules shall be made, 
except at the Annual Meeting of the Association, previous notice being 
given in the Circular convening the Meeting. 

Journal of the Association. 
Article 23» The Council may, in their discretion, publish quarterly 
or otherwise, a Journal, containing a Beport of the several General and 
other Meetings of the Association. Papers submitted for discussion 
shall be published in eoctenaOy or not, as the Council may decide. 

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MAJOR EVANS BELL in the Chair. 

Paper read by William Tayler, Esq. 

Popular Education in India, 

The Chairman of the Council, B. B. Eastwicr, Esq., C.B., M.P., 
having been prevented by illness from attending, Major Evans Bbll 
was called -to the chair, and opened the proceedings shortly after eight 
o'clock by observing that both from want of experience, and from being 
conscious of a certain prejudice against Government education, he felt 
very much disqualified to preside on this occasion. But Mr. East wick 
being absent, from a cause which they inust all regret, he was told that 
there was no one else to take the chair. He had not given the s];)ecial 
question of industrial schools miich attention, but had never been able 
to feel much enthusiasm for official schools of any sort.' Some of hia 
doubts and objections he had expressed in what he had written on the 
subject. He had much pleasure, however, in introducing Mr. Tayler to 
the Meeting, who could speak of personal labours and experience to which 
few who were present could pretend, and, he was sure, would inform them 
of much that would prove novel, as well as instructive to all of them. 

Mr. TaylUr. — The subject of Popular Education, whether in India or 
EIngland, is a subject which, at the present moment, is concentrating the 
attention' of the philanthropist and the statesman in both countries. My 
present purpose is to offer some- observations on the subject as it affects 
the millions of India. But X cannot willingly ent^r upon a discussion 
of this question without making some reference to the events which 
have lately taken place in India, knd the animated controversy to which 
those events have given birth. It is probably well-known to many of 
those present, that the* Government of India ' having, after much con- 
sideration, arrived at the conclusion that the education of the people 
has been, to some extent, sacrificed to .the, education of the higher 
classes, has resolved to withdraw a certain . portion of the funds hitherto 
Part 3.— Vol. V. b 

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devoted to the latter object, and apply it to the former. This reso- 
lution, as we can well understand, has led to' a very warm and some- 
what bitter controversy. The party whom I may call the High Edu- 
cationists — and those who maintain the theory that civilisation must 
always commence with the higher sti*ata of society, and descend by a 
gradual process of filtration to the lower — have strongly protested 
against the change ; while those who hiive taken the lower strata of 
the people, comprising, as they do, many millions of our fellow-creatures, 
into their sympathies, have rejoiced at this movement in their behalf. 

Unhappily, this purely educational question has been mixed up with 
a collateral question of taxation, and the accidental mixture has added 
strength and bitterness to ji controversy which might, under other cir- 
cumstances, have been calmly discussed and amicably settled. Into the 
merits of this controversy, in its financial phase, I have no desire, on 
the present occasion, to enter. But, to avoid all possibility of misrepre- 
sentation, I would merely wish, in passing, to say, that no one can be 
more deeply impressed than T am myself with the great importance of 
that higher system of education which it is the bounden duty of the 
State to impart, which has already produced such excellent results — 
brought out the intellect of Young India, dissipated the errors and 
superstitions of centuries, and is now training up a body of men 
admirably adapted to take their place in the administration of the 
country, and possibly, if I may trust the spirit of late important move- 
ments, is preparing the way for still higher advancement in the path of 
national elevation. 

I have thought it right to say so much on thLs subject, because I was 
apprehensive that, from my selecting the education of the lower classes 
as the subject of this paper, my sentiments might be misunderstood, and 
it might be imagined that in advocating the one, I disregarded or under- 
rated the other. 

And first, to assist us in realising the stupendous extent of the work 
which lies- before the Government of India, when it undertakes the 
education. of the people, I will just recall to your mind the relative 
extent and number of inhabitants of the several countries of Europe as 
compared with India. They stand thus : — 

Sq. miles. Population. 

England 58,320 21,210,020 

Scotland 30,685 3,062,294 

France 206,250 38,067,094 

Prussia 137,066 22,769,436 

Total 432,321 85,108,844 

India ,. 900,000 150,000,000 

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To disseminate the blessings of education over this eaprraous tract 
of country, and among this vast population, is doubtless the most 
gigantic, the most noble enterprise ever undertaken by a nation. An^l 
yet nothing less than this is the responsibility laid upon England in thje 
discharge of its sacred trust. And this responsibility appears, to have 
been fully recognised in the celebrated dispatch from the Court of . 
Directors in 1854, in which the primary importance of populp educa.- 
tion, imparted in the veruacular language of the country, as vv^ell as the 
benefits to be anticipated from special instruction, in elementary arts^ 
especially agriculture, are forcibly dwelt upon. It is in the light of thi^ 
despatch, which we may fairly regard as^ the charter of popular education, 
that I propose to consider the subject before us. , 

And here I must also, in passing, say , that I do not intend 
to enter in this paper on the subject of female education. Deeply 
interesting and important as that subject is, its incidents are so 
peculiar, and the principles to be observed in its achievemeiit so un- 
settled and perplexing, that it can only be adequately dealt with by 
itself. I will only take this opportunity of expressing my cordial and 
hearty assent to the words which I have just read at the close of an 
address delivered the other day in Calcutta, by Baboo Keshub Chunder 
Sen : " If you wish to give India true civilisation, infuse purity and 
instil right ideas of duty into the native female mind.'* But at the sanjp 
time, in justice to the Government which has been accused of withhold- 
ing its support to the work, I may quote the words of Mr. George Noble 
Taylor's minute, recorded in 1868. He says in that document: " The 
importance of making provision for the instruction of the women of the 
country has never been lost siglit of; but the immense difficulty of the 
subject in a country like India, where social habits and prejudices forbid 
the direct intervention of the State, has prevented the adoption of any 
systematic plan of operations. At difterent times and in various wayk 
local projects have been set on foot, and real earnest eflforts have been 
made to lead the people to appreciate the benefits of education for their 
girls; but the genei«,l apathy and indifference of the parents have 
paralysed the most energetic measures, and must continue to oppose a 
formidable obstacle, which the unaided instrumentality of the State can 
never hope to overcome.'* The only additional remark that I will make 
on this subject — which will, I hope^ lead to much interesting discussion 
hereafter — is, that in spite of the formidable obstacles here enumerated, 
it is a fact that there are at this moment no less than 2,000 schools in 
British India, in which 50,000 females of all ages are actually receiving 
instruction. Having, as I hope, removed all chance of misconception on 
these points, I proceed to the oonsideratioa of the actual subject before me, 

B 2 

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When I use the iexpredsion " Popular Education,'* 1 may explain 
that I refer to the education offered by the schools, which, whether in 
town or country, are supported by the Government, and are not the 
highest schools, in which English only is taught to the upper classes. 
These schools generally combine instruction in Englisb and the 
vernacular. They are attended by the children of the lowfer classes — 
that is, the children of artisans, farmers, tillers of the soil, hewers of 
wood and drawers of water. It is the character of the education 
offered to these classes — the 150 millions of India — that I propose to 

I will not here attempt to present any accurate definition of 
the term education. -Definitions are among the things to be 
avoided ; and, as Confucius said of the gods, " Respect them ; have 
as little to do with them as possible." But at the same time, 
adverting to the true signification of the original Latin word, we 
may, I imagine, fairly presume that the object of education is not the 
mere teaching of certain Words or figures ; but — taken in its broadest 
sense, and with reference to the position of the persons taught — 
the " drawing out *' of the entire man, and qualifying him to discharge 
the duties' allotted to him by Providence, intellectual, moral, or physical, 
with the greatest ■ efficiency. Now the important practical question 
which presents itself is. Does the present system of popular education in 
India answer this purpose ? Are we drawing out the moral, intellectual, 
and physical capacities of the i)eople 1 • 

i (^not say whether there has been lately any radical change in 
that system ; but I can speak with some confidence in regard to that 
which was in force some years ago, and I have sought in vain for any in- 
dications of improvement. I have read through the formidable Blue-book, 
printed last year by order of the ** House of Commons," and though I 
'l>erceive in the history of Educational progress, from 1866 to the pre- 
sent time, the evidence of great ability and most laudable earnestness 
on the part of the authorities, I do not, I confess, perceive any effective 
treatment of those radical defects, which appear to me to disfigure the 
system in force, and neutralise or nullif}' the benefits which it is doubt^ 
less the conscientious desire of the Government to confer, and which, to 
some extent, they have conferred upon the people of India. These 
defects, I would here wish to say, are — first, tlie entire absence of all clear, 
distinct, and systematic moral instruction ; and, secondly, the inappro- 
priate, unpractical, and unprofitable character of at' least a portion 
of the instruction' offered. And first, I would observe, in regard to 
morality. Religion, as we all know, has (whether rightly or wrrmgly, 
t^ill, perhaps, never be satisfactorily known in this TJvprld) been on, 

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political ^oilnds aufchoritatively discarded from dur scJhoote. Thc^re are. 
many who i-egret this excl^si6n, and I own myself among :the number;* 
but it is an accomplished fact, and we must so accept it. But if doc-^ 
ttinal Christianity is thus placed out of court, is there any good or. 
sufficient reason, why moral instruction, or what we may call practical, 
Christianity, should be ignored 1 Irrespective pf the mysteries of ourr 
faith, we possess a pure and perfect system of personal and social 
morality, the purity and perfection of which are alike recognised by 
Christian, Hindoo, Moslem, or Atheist. What is to prevent us from 
placing this before our student 1 And if it be objected, that even the 
principles of this code may possibly clash wiih some of the preqepts of 
the Mahoniedan, Hindoo, or Buddhist faith, and thus involve an 
apparent violation of the pledged neutrality, the contact cannot be 
sharper, or the clashing more dissonant, than that caused by any one of 
those physical and scientific truths which we are now daily teaching. If. 
we scruple not, by our geogi-aphical primers, to overthrow the whple* 
system of the Hindoo Shastres by demonstrating that the earth is round, 
and does not depend for its support in ether on the horny back of the, 
unwearied tortoise, why should we fear to demolish the oppressive; 
bondage and unloving exclusiveness of caste,) by" teaching love to all meni 
The utmost that the Hindoa could say against the charity might, with 
eqnal justice, be urged against the .cosmogony. 

It is, indeed, a matter of serious inquiry and national self-ezamina* 
tion, whether we have, through the action of our schools, given to our 
students any higher regard for truth, temperance, honour to parents,; 
respect to superiors, humility, contentment, than they possessed, 
before 1, I once asked a schoolboy, somewhat advanced in the edu- 
cation, of a district school in India, whether,-, if he committed a 
fault and was taxed with it, he would confess or deny his guilt I 
**I)eny it," said he, without a moment*s hesitation, and in the most, 
decided tone, as if confident of his ground; and the murmuring 
assent and approving countenances of the entire class unmistak- 
ably showed their cordial concurrence in the sentiment. The same, 
general idea of school honesty was curiously exhibited about the same; 
time. I had been persuading the celebrated Koer. Singh— a noble old> 
chieftain, who in 1867 was driven by injudicious treatment into rebellion — . 
to establish some vernacular schools on his estate. He agreed at once, and- 
promised to organise one close to his own residence, and superititend it: 
himself. After warmly acknowledging his prompt acquiescence, I said, r 
*f Do you not see what benefits would accrue .to the people and country; 
from education ?'* He looked at me. for a minute gi'avely, and replied, 
*f Shall your slave, apeak the words of truth or flattery 1" " Oh.l. truth by 

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dll means," 1 said. The dignified old man then joined his hands, 
inclined his body slowly forward, and said : " Your Excellency speaks 
of the advantages of education. Tiiere is in the distant part of your 
slave's estate a race of people small and black, like monkeys— the very 
counterpart — there is veiy little difference between the two. If I were 
to drop this * mala * (and here he touched a rosary made of roodracb 
seeds, alternated with gold) in their village, and go among them six 
months afterwards, they would bring it to me and say, ' Baboo Sahib, 
you dropped your mala when last you were here ; we have found it and 
brought it you.' Well (continued he), there are no schools there ; the 
people are like monkeys, but they are honest, and speak the truth.. 
Now, if I wei-e to drop this same necklace here at AiTah, where the 
people are educated, nay (with much significance), if I were to drop it 
at the door of the scfiool-house, do you think your slave would ever see it 
again 1" I was compelled to admit that nothing could be more unlikely. 
*<! Well,"' he I'esumed, "yo^r slave will build a school-bouse at Jugdea- 
gore, and will make the boys of the village attend. Your honour wishes it, 
and it shall be done; but you told me to speak the words of truth, and tkcU 
is my idea of your editcation.** > How far the shrewd old Rajpoot judged 
rightly of our system and its effects may be matter of doubt; at all events 
the students of our schools are, or at least were, left to pick up, as they can, 
such scraps of morality, such waifs and strays of virtue and tmth, as 
they accidentally find scattered over the waves or cast on tlie shores of 
the ocean of literature ; the doubtful morality, the bewildering ethics of 
Shakespeare, Pope, Goldsmith, and Milton, are successively swallowed 
down, and an "olla podrida** of incongruous moral ideas quite beyond 
' the powers of the native mind to assimilate or digest, paMe» into and 
pervades t?ieir system ; and so, I fear, with respect to the other virtues 
enumerated. As to temperance, I am not saying anything in groundless 
disparagement of the native character, for it is the natives themselves 
who bear witness to the fact ; it is simply a matter of notoriety that 
English education too often marches hand in hand with a propensity to 
drink, and the book and the bottle stiive for mastery ; but as this 
painful offshoot of Western civilisation is not so common among the 
ordinary scholars of the lower class of schools as it is among the higher 
establishments at the Presidencies, at least in Bengal, I need not dwell 
upon it. That the grace of humility is injuriously affected, all those who 
have, visited these schools, met the students in their walks, or listened 
to their conversation, will I'eadily attest. It may be a natural effect of 
a ^* little learning," but is at times obtrusive, and well worthy of notice. 
And so it is with the duty of filial respect and reverence, as all might 
Wrn if they conversed with the old-fashioned parents of the pupils. 

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And lastly, contentment — contelittnent with the lot in which they 
are cast — perhaps the most important moral attribute of man, and which 
an Asiatic proverb happily terms the '* key of happiness," there is little 
question that the system of education hitherto pursued has had the 
effect of rendering the pupils generally discontented with their loU 

Unless a student, after some years, obtains the object whichperhaps alone 
has brought him to the school — unless within a given time he enters into the 
haven of Amlah-ship, or is admitted into the circle of the clerks* Elysium, 
he becomes a disappointed, restless being ; he has not learned enough to 
enlarge his mind; he has learned enough to dissatisfy him with the 
titter darkness in which he formerly vegetated ; enough to despise his 
parents, disregard his equals ; enough to know, perhaps to feel, that 
knowledge is power, though he cannot attain unto it : disqualified for his 
allotted duties, he is not fitted for any other, and he becomes un- 
balanced, dissatisfied, a burden to himself, and a nuisance to his friends. 
Now, this is no trifling matter, and we may well look to it; if our 
education is one that teaches neither religion, morality, or ti-uth ; that 
converts men into wine-bibbers who were sober before ; that makes the 
scholars unruly in their families, irreverent to their parents, and discon- 
tented with their lot ; small is the consolation that the young student 
can quote passages from Milton, obtain some far-off insight into Shake- 
speare's mysteries, indue his legs in English pantaloons, and ventilate 
philosophic fancies in the debating-rooms of dilettante societies. 

27ie absence of inoral trainhig, then, is fo my mind the first and 
greatest blot in our present system ; and I cannot but think that, at the 
present ciisis, when popular education is about to be extended throughout 
the country, this question should form the subject of careful considera- 
tion, and some such comprehensive code of instruction drawn up, and 
such a selection of books be made, as will (as far as they can without 
religion's sanction) make a desirable impression on the* minds of the 
rising generation ; at all events that, whatever be the practical result,^ 
we should at least endeavour to instil the first pritjciples of morality and 
virtue, as effectively as possible — principles which shou]d be' watched" 
and enforced by appropriate control. 

The second defect which I would now desire to point out is the 
mistaken character of the actual instruction given, which, unless it be 
, greatly changed, is, to say the least of it, painfully inappropriate, and 
in many respects not only useless, but prejudicial to the receivers. And 
here I cannot, I think, present the nature of this system more forcibly 
than by quoting a passage from the notes of a gentleman much inte- 
rested in these matters, written fresh after a visit of inspection to an 
ordinary middle-class school. The notes are hot in such gi^V^ and fbrbiiaf 

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language' as is -usual in an address, but they are graphic, and to the point 
— instructive, perhaps amusing, I here read the critic's words : — 

"We are in a Zillah school, containing 150 boys. Here is the second 
cla^s, in which there are twenty students. Let us see what they are 
about. I ask the nearest boy his name. It is Bujoo Das^ What ii^ 
he reading ? . But stay, let us first inquire who is Bujoo Das ; what 
his position in life, what the prospects before him, what are his allotted 
duties'? Bujoo Das is a very promising Ig^d— -quiet, intelligent, and 
docile ; his big, bright, inquiring eyes denote considerable intellectual 
aptitude ; while his. thin legs and large stomach equally indicate physical 
deficiency. He is the son of a small farmer earning some 40^. per annum 
from the proceeds of his farm, and, as he has a large and hungry family 
to support, he screws with some difficulty the means for his son's school- 
ing. In the natural course of things the boy . Bujoo would succeed 
to the paternal farm, carrying on his rustic operations in precisely the 
same way as his father, grandfather, and remote ancestora for fifty 
generations, varying, perhaps, his peaceful and insipid pui-suits with the 
occasional spice of litigation with his own tenants or neighbounng 
landholders ; but, in all probability, passing quietly down, into the 
valley of shadows, ' more majorum/ unlettered certainly, but without 
much guile j ignorant of all history, ancient or modern, but temperate 
withal, and quite satisfied with tepid water out of his ancestral lota for. 
his daily beverage. Of poetry innocent, but contented with his lot. 
Tenderly careful of his old father, if alive, affectionate to his 
children, and generally kind to his wife; though he would, perhaps, beat 
her if the vegetable curry was not well cooked, or if his hookah is not 
ready when he returns from the field. Such is. Bujoo in his present 
condition — sqch would he be in his future uninterrupted incidents. 
Well, we have got him as he is into our Zillah school, and are 
educating him. He is about to read — his brown finger has got fast 
under a line — his eyes are dilated, and he seems preparing to swallow 
book and all at a gulp. Let us hear what he is learning under our 
auspices ; — 

* Go, rose, niy Chloe's bosom grace ; 

How happy should I prove, 
Might I supply that envied place 

With never-fading love ! 
There, Phoenix-like, beneath her eye. 

Involved in fragrance, bum and die; ;, 

Know, hapless flower, that thou sbalt find 

More fragrant roses there ; 
I see thy withering head reclined, 

With envy and despair.' 

" Here Bujoo, who has read right through the stanza without a 
atop, pulls uj), with a long breath and a look of panting exultation ; and , 

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here, perhaps, t may pause and exclaim, not in exultation but in 
sadness of heart, ' Unhappy Bujoo — ill-fated boy ! Is it for this you 
have left your father's rustic roof,- and toiled some three years and more 
in mastering the most difficult of foreign languages, to be bewildered, 
if not corrupted, by amorous metaphors and jingling love ditties T 
What possible right has Bujoo, the mild brown boy, to wish him- 
self a rose in Chloe's l)ospm ? What, is Ohloe to him, or he to Chloe ? 
Bujoo, himself about ieleven, married an infant of two years old some 
years ago, because Bhugwan Das, his father, and Goluk Chunder, the 
infantV father, so arranged it ; she is now ten, and has just had her nose 
bored ; they will soon live together as man and wife. She wiil 
Diake his curry and prepare his hookah. He will shut her up as 
if she were a favourite' cow, and occasionally beat her; but as for 
* never-fading love,' poor Bujoo never dreamed of such a thing. 
Even for an English rustic these amorous poems would be of very 
questionable utility ; but to a native they are worse than useless — 
they can convey no meaning or ideas whatever except what are cor- 
rupting ; for love, innocent and pure, with all its sentiments and tender 
fancies, is a thing foreign to his nature and habits. 

" Under a Hindoo view of the passage barning and dying * involved 
in fragrance ' (of a peculiar kind) may be connected with each other, and 
therefore may convey some definite meaning, though certainly not the 
poet's, to this poor bewildered stripling ; but * involved in fragrance M 
what * fragrance ' will he ever be involved in during his lifetiinie save that: 
of garlic or cardamums 1 What resemblance has he to a * phoenix ;' and-, 
is he not far more likely to find his amusement when he is not * be-, 
neath the ey^ of hLs Chloe than when Mrs. Bujoo has him under her 
ken ? . Seriously speaking, is not the incongruity, the absurdity, of. 
filling little native boys with this rhapsodical nonsiense, worse than 
ridiculous ] Is it not positively mischievous and worthy of reprobatioti ?. 
^^ T appeal to any sensible man whether there be anything like fitness 
in thus dealing with a rustic lad, whose lot is cast in the field or the 
workshop ; whether, so far from qualifying Bujoo to discharge his task 
and fulfil his duty as an honest, simple, and contented agrarian, 
whether we are not doing our best. to ruin him. Bujoo, with his 
Chloe, is but a specimen. Here is a little fat child, the son of a com- 
mon carpenter ; just look what he is puzzling his bimns over : — 
, * A pin who long had served a beauty, 
Proftcient in the toilet's duty, 
Had formed her sleerN'^e, confined her hair, 
Or given her knot a smarter air I' 

While the little dump next to him is completely shut up and gazes 
vacantly on . . 

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* His object chosen, wealth or fame, 
Or other sublunary game ! ' 

Here is a fisherman's son up to his middle in the river Granicus, and a 
fledgeling weaver threading through the entangled * facetiae ' of * Betwixt 
Eyes and Nose / while a plethoric infant, the * deliciae * of a village 
potter, is in the agonies of 

* Laura's cheek — where blushes rise.' 

It is dijSicult to find words to express fitly the condemnation which 
such education deserves : it is not that it is fiivolous and useless ; but it 
is grossly unfair upon the pupils themselves* I need not continue the 
analysis ; these specimens are suflicient/' 

Thus far my critical friend, in whose remarks I must confess I most 
cordially agree. While, however, this mistaken scheme of education ha^ 
been in progress, and borne its unsatisfying fruit, it is gratifying to find 
that some thinking men have seen the evil and suggested the remedy. 
George Campbell, now happily made Lieutenant-Governor of Bengal, in 
his admirable work, " India as It May Be," has forcibl}' pointed out somo 
of the very abuses described, and has strongly advocated the substitution 
of useful knowledge and practical scieace. The committee appointed in 
1856 referred to the same subject ; and several writers in reviews and 
newspapers liave at dififerent times exposed the barren and unprofitable 
results of the present system. There is, therefore, every reason to hope 
some more sound, healthy, and sensible system will, ere long, be adopted; 
and the mischief which has for years been ppreadiug like a canker, be 
changed for what is useful and good. 

Mr. (now Sir George) Yule, a Bengal civilian, pre-eminently distin- 
guished for his knowledge of the people, and his sound and practical 
views on all subjects of administration, some years ago recorded his 
opinion of the system in the following emphatic words: "I look ujion 
the education afforded by the Mofussil Government schools with con- 
tempt, and I know no one who does not do the same ;" while, about the 
same time, the Government of India— itself somewhat bewildered with 
the difficulties before it — endeavoured in vain to obtain from the local 
Bengal Govemment^equally, if not more bewildered — what th6y more 
tlian once officially and urgently demanded, viz., a comprehensive report 
on the 83'stem to be adopted for the education of the people, in accord- 
ance with the principles set forth in the Court's dispatch of 1854. 

And now, as closely connected with the questions here discussed, 
I perhaps may be pardoned if I say a few words in regard to my own 
eiforts to carry out into action the principles which I now advocate. 
It was under a deep consideration of the defects in the Government 

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system — a system whict ignominiously faikd in the provmce of Behar— 
tliat, when I was Commissioner of Patna in 1857, I ventured to 
propose the adoption of a comprehensive scheme of practical education, 
adapted to the wants and in harmony with what I believed to be the feel- 
ings of the great mass of the people. 

The scheme is briefly set forth in a little pamphlet which I pub- 
lished at the time, and which will be reprinted as an appendix to this 
paper. The plan was based on the principle that unless we secure the 
sympatliies of the people themselves they will noi enter our schools in 
any numbers ; that to secure their sym])athies we must appeal to their 
interests, and must oiFer them an education which will aid and advance 
them in the pursuits and oocujriations of daily life. This principle appears 
to me to be almost beyond dispute. Self-interest has been ordained by 
the All- wise Creator as the great motive of human. exertion and human 
enterprise ; and if we are unwise enough to disregard this truth in any 
great national scheme we must suffer for our presumption. 

After intimating my design to the Grovernment, and obtaining for 
it the cordial approval of the Lieutenant-Governor, I losrt no time in 
putting my plans into execution. 

Having previously conversed with the principal rajahs, land- 
holders, and other intelligent and influential n^itives on the subject 
generally, I felt confident of their liberal support and hearty co-opera- 
tion, and I was not disappointed. In the space of a few months 1 
received the. promise of contributions to the extent of two lacs of 
rupees (20,000/.); liberal monthly subscriptions were tendered, several 
handsome endowments of land were made ; and special gifts of caille, 
books, furniture, and other useful articles were presented. The plan 
embraced numerous departments j there was to have been a vernacular 
school, in which, daring a portion of the day, the elements of useful 
knowledge were to be imparted to the boys of the lower and middling 
classes; while the field, the gard^^n, the workshops awaited them 
after a few hours' study, and gave them opportunity of practical 
instruction in the several trades and pursuits to which they wished to 
devote tliemselves. A central building, containing a museum in which 
ail the products and fabricated articles of the province were to be 
collected, arranged, and classified ; a library for English and vernacular 
works, a school of art, and other departments were in the course of con- 
struction. The land, on which the building stood, comprised an area of 
between 400 and 500 beegalis (the Indian acre), part of which was to 
have been formed into a kitchen-garden and orchard, and tl>e rest left for 
experimental field cultivation. A canal for irrigation was to intersect the 
grounds, affording scope for testing different modes of artificial water- 

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raising. A gynmasiam, to which' all* the pupils might rpsort, and in' 
whieh the physical powers might be developed, was attached to the play- 
ground of the vernacular school. The improvement of cattle was also to 
have been systematically attempted by the importation of superior stock ; 
while the more simple articles of machinery — thrashing and reaping 
machines, circular saws, and other such aids to induslry — were to be 
gradually introduced, and their results exhibited to the natives. It was 
also my intention to have annual meetings of all classes-^landholders, 
planters, peasantry, and public officers, with exhibition of produce, 
stock, and workmanship, and distribution of prizes, and thus unite in 
matters of ciommon interest the various sections of the community. And,' 
lastly, an orphan asylum for the maintenance and instruction of the 
indigent and fatherless children of all classes was to have been con- 
structed on the ground and supported by the contributions of the 
community. The essential object contemplated by this scheme was to 
make education, in the first place, attractive, and in the second, practi-., 
eaUy usefulto the pupils. From the hour that God's curse fell upon 
the earth, and thorns and thistles took the place of flowers, labour is the' 
heritage of man, the sweat of his brow his appointed lot. Through: 
labour, successfully applied, come oivilisation, wealth, and power. The 
difference between a civilised and uncivilised nation at the present day, 
other things being equal, is in the ratio of scientific attainment. The 
country that has the best system of agriculture, the stoutest ships, the 
most efifective machinery, armies of the highest discipline, muniments 
of war most perfectly constructed—will, under ordinary circumstance, 
be the strongest, most civilised, and, unless moral deformity interferes, 
the happiest. What I venture to maintain is, that it is by imparting 
useful scientific knowledge, that knowledge that gives to man a com- 
mand over (.he elements, opens up to him the treasures of earth, shows; 
him the mineral in the mountain, and enlists the thunderbolt of heaven 
in his service ; that it is by siich instruction that we shall enable the 
natives of India to fulfil their allotted task in the present life; and this,, 
as far as the educational portion of my. project was concerned, was my 
moving principle. And here I should wish, for the purpose of show- 
ing how this scheme was received and estimated at the time, to read: 
five or six short letters, out of a very large collection in my possession,' 
from several eminent men among the different classes of the com-/ 
ro unity, expressing their sentiments. The first is from the well- 
known Dr. Duff, whose name alone is sufficient to ensure respect to his- 
sentiments : — 

My dear Mr. Tayler,^Your protest 1 read this morning, and can cordially 

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j^spond to every sentiment in it respecting the best modes of dealing with 
the natives, &c. 

And now- 1 have to thank you for the sketch, &o. 

From what I had learnt from others, and your own vivid account of yester- 
day, my impression accords with tHat of others, who regarded it as singularly 
adapted to the peculiar exigencies of the people. 

With a noble object in view ; with noble philanthropic motives in the pur- 
suit of it ; and with a conscious rectitude of aim and purpose throughout, you 
may well lift up your head in the assurance that sooner or later you will 
vindicate the right. 

Yea, under a new rigime .of things in India, I would fain hope that you may 
^et be in a position to work so noble a scheme to a glorious consummation. 

Yours very sincerely, 
(Signed) Alexander Duff. 

The next letter T shall read ig from Dr. Mouat,* a gentleman of emi- 
nent ability, and himself at one time Director of Public Instruction ; — 

Moteharry, February 3, 1857. 

My dear Tayler,— I have gone through the papers which you kindly sent 
me, with the interest of one who has for many years advocated similar views, 
but was not so fortunately placed as you are for carrying them into effect. 

The outline of your plan is complete and admits of no addition, the details 
will necessarily work themselves out as the institution gradually expands. 
I hope you will print all these papers as a small pamphlet for general dis- 
tribution, and if I can aid you in Calcutta or elsewhere, my poor services are 
entirely at your command. I have no hesitation in declaring my belief that 
if fully and fairly carried out and developed to the extent of what it is 
susceptible, the blessings capable of being conferred in your province by your 
plan will not be surpassed by those of any great measure yet conceived and 
executed for the benefit of those entrusted by Providence to the rules of Great 

AVith the most hearty wishes for your entire success, 

1 am, &c. 
Then, again, here is a letter from the gallant and lamented Major 
Holmes, who was murdered shortly afterwards in the Mutiny, a gentle- 
man who lived in the district, and had himself for some years coDducted 
interesting experiments in farming and agriculture : — 

My dear Tayler, — I find it hard to express the real pleasure I have felt 
in the perusal of the papers connected with the industrial institution. 

The whole jihing comes on me like the accomplishment of a long-cherished 

It has been said that few things give more pleasure than the accurate ex- 
pression of our own thoughts and feelings, and I have frequently felt the truth of 
this in going over these papers. 

The plans and schemes I haire long dwelt on for the amelioration of this, the 
^Duntry of my adoption, are no loi^ger Utopian, and my liveliest aspirations find 
in this a local habitation. 

* Thi^ gentleman, was for several years Director-General of Public Instruction, 
and one of the most able officers of the department. 

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. I have already expressed to you my ideas on the first necessity of a sound; 
practical, rather than a theoretical, education ; on the necessity of educating the 
body and the hand before we attempt to give a high finish and polish to the mind. 

If this, your great work, is allowed free course and carried out with steady 
patience, perseverance, and industry, not deterred by little failures and the 
cavilling of the crowd (for without these no great scheme has ever been brought 
jto perfection), I am strongly persuaded that such a success will follow as has 
never yet been attained by aoy similar enterprise — I will not say in India — but in 
the whole vwrld. 

As a practical proof of my strong approbation of your scheme, may I request 
your acceptance of a merino ram and four noerino ewes imported from the Cape 
for the Agricultural and Pastoral Department ; and to your orphan asylum I would 
gladly transfer two parentless children of six and eight years, with fifty rupees per 
annum, to be paid by me, until their education enable them to provide for themselves. 

Should I happily be able to assist your scheme at any time with my individual 
exertions, I need hardly say they will be most heartily at your service. 

The fourth letter I shall read is from a most able and distinguished 
official in Mozufferpore, one of the Patna districts — Mr. Davies : — 

My dear Tayler, — I view the establishment of the industrial institution at 
Patna with great interest. I know of no measure for the general improvement of 
the country, and for ameliorating the condition of the people, which can match 
with it- for comprehensiveness and practical utility. Individual efforts, of which 
many have been made at different times, seldom succeed, for want of system, 
combination, and unity of purpose ; and when successful, the benefit is confined 
to small localities, for want of means of recording and making known the results 
to the public. Your scheme, embracing a wide range of action, is so systematically 
planned, that all experiments will be carried out conjointly, and also for a 
sufficient length of time to admit of accurate conclusions being adduced from 
results ; and the provision you have n ade for publishing for general information 
all the operations carried on in the institution, will create inquiry and competition^ 
and thus secure the object you have in view. It was very thoughtful of you, 
therefore, before commencing the extensive operations you contemplated, to lay a 
sure basis for their success, by providing sufficient funds ; and it speaks much for 
the intelligence and liberality of the wealthy native gentry of the division that 
they have supported you so willingly and well. — Yours, very sincerely, 

W. R. Davie^. 

The only others, though T have many more, with -which I shall 
trouble you, are from two native gentlemen, which are interesting as 
showing the native opinion on the scheme. One is from the celebrated 
Hindu pleader, Baboo Ramapeishad Roy, who was selected to fill a seat 
on the Bendi of the Calcutta High Court ; the other is from a Maho- 
medan deputy collector, who received the star of India for his gallant 
behaviour in the well-known siege of Arrah. 

Mfitract of a Letter from Baboo Kamapeishad Roy, Vakeel of the Sudda Court^ 

My dear Sir,— I wrote to yon a hasty note immediately on my arrival, which I 
liope has reached you. 

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T h^v© been anxiously expecting to receive from you a copy of the paper you are 
drawing out, containing your views in detail in regard to the different departments 
of the proposed industrial school at Fatna. I saw Halliday since my return, and 
iM. him what you are about^ and what a glorious thing the school will be. I 
saw Grote, and explained to him the outline of the plan. Unfortunately I 
eannot get much assistance from him, a^ he is shortly going away from Calcutta, 
and is to be permanently stationed at Ki9heDnugger. I spoke to Bead about it, 
and be was quite struck with the greatness and utility of the measure. 

From Native Deputy Collector ofShaliabad to W. Tayler^ Esq. 

Arrah, April 5, 1857. 

My dear Sir, —Many thanks for the perusal of the papers connected with the 
school of iijidustry. 

If I were to enumerate the blessings it would confer on the provinpe of Behar, 
my letter would exceed the limits T have assigned to it. 

Allow me to assure you that, if your well-concerted scheme succeeds, which it 
must under your able guidance, it would work a change in the destiny of India, 
and brinij; it to a level with the most civilised countries on the face of the globe. 
Persevere, my dear Sir, with the same philanthropic spirit which has prompted 
you to undertake this vast scheme of improvement, and success will attend you in 
every step which you tak« to carry it out. 

I was highly disgusted to see some scandalous letters published in the English'* 
man* Let not the base malice of the enemies to the amelioration of India divert 
you from your noble pursuit, and let the enemy have the mortification to see that 
the seed you have sown has become a tree, the wholesome fruits of which are 
destined for India to. reap. -r- Yours sincerely, 

(Signed) *SyED Azimoodeen Khan. 

I will here only add that the opinions thus enthusiastically expressed by 
these representatives of the several classes, were echoed as enthusiatically 
by all in the province, with such trifling exceptions that they are not 
deserving of notice. The scheme, under such encouraging auspices, 
commenced : the ground was laid out, sheds erected, cattle purchased, 
the schools opened ; but shortly afterwards, under opposition, the circum- 
stances of which I will not here describe, it fell to the ground. 

But I have great confidence in the majesty of truth, and am well 
aware that interested or unreasonable opposition can never avail to 
ruin, though it may retard, what is essentially good and useful ; and I 
have always looked forward confidently to the future revival and com- 
plete re-establishment of this or some similar scheme as the only one 
which will secure the sympathy of the people, or tend to the welfare 
and civilisation of the masses ; and that this confidence has not been 
misplaced is, I think, sufficiently shown by the fact that some ten years 
afterwards, Sir Donald Macleod, the honoured Lieutenant-Governor 
of the Punjaub, projected a system of industrial education, in many 
points identical with that proposed by me, though it did not comprise 

* This uf^cer has lately been decorated with the *' Star of India." 

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all that I had hoped to include, and it is with some satisfaction that I 
am able now to produce — ^^not for any purposes of self glorification, but 
merely to show how the principle which I then advocated, and still 
continue to uphold, after years of neglect, was again revived in the 
most progi-essive Government, and under one of thi? most able and 
excellent rulers, that India has ever known — the following official 
letter, written to me by him in 1866 : — 

Lahore, February 2, 1867. 

Sir, — I have received and laid before the hon. the Lieutenant-Governor your 
letter (without date) and its enclosure, having reference to a scheme proposed by 
yon for an industrial institution ; and, in reply, I am instructed to convey to you 
his Honour's hearty thanks for this communication. 

2. That portion of the enclosure of your letter which refers to the establish- 
ment of a school of arts and industry, together with a model farm, will prove of 
essential value in connexion with the establishment of an institution of this kind 
at Lahore, which has for a considerable time past been in contemplation ; while in 
the general views on education expressed by you, it is hardly necessary to say 
that in the main his Honour cordially concurs. 

3. Amidst the conflicting opinions which prevail on this subject, the hon. the 
Lieutenant-Governor greatly values your support of these views, and highly 
appreciates the earnestness in the cause of India's healthy progress which has 
prompted you thus to address this Government. 

I have the honour, &c., 

T. H. Thornton, Secretary to Government Punjaub. 

How far these intentions were subsequently carried out I am not aware ; 
but 1 believe their practical development was prevented by want of 

The conclusion, then, at which I would wish the educational 
authorities to arrive is this : First, that they should underetand and 
recognise their high and sacred trust as the instructors of a nation, and 
therefore to some extent responsible for the future welfare of its people. 
Secondly, that though they accept the necessity of abstaining from' 
^he authoritative teaching of doctrinal Christianity, they should 
compile in practical form, adopt, promulgate, and sanction with their 
high authority that sublime system of morality which has been 
graciously given to us, and let their pupils see that moral 
excellence is held to be of at least as much importance as poetry 
or mathematics. Thirdly, that they adapt their actual instruc- 
tion to the character, condition, pursuit, and prospects of the people, 
Do not teach the son of a carpenter to spout amatory verses to imaginary 
Chloea, or the cowherd stripling to bewilder his brains with the battle of 
Arbela, thius disqualifying both for the contented and efficient discharge 
of their necessary duties ; but give those whose lot is labour in the field, 
the mine, or the workshop, through the medium oj their own language, 

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a' simple and sound education in practical and useful knowledge; dis- 
abuse them of the idea that bodily work is disgraceful, that clerkdoui 
and Amlah-ship are the only honourable objects of ambition, and show 
them by precept, example, and practical experiment, that God's curse of 
labour is in all its branches, when rightly dealt with, a " blessing in dis- 
guise;" that the steady application of their reason, their talents, and 
acquirements, to the purpose of their own calling and pursuits, will lead 
to far more honourable and permanent prosperity than the uncertain 
glories of the Court and the Cutcherry. 

By so doing, you will gradually " draw out " and give development 
to the faculties of the people, lead the masses to the right use of mind 
and body, and enable them more efficiently than before to discharge 
their obvious and immediate duties. 

In this way, instead of rearing up thousands of youths, with a smat- 
tering of English in their heads and scraps of poetry on their tongues, 
to strut and fret upon the stage of life, without purpose or object, you 
will gi'adually elevate the entire mass, increase their happiness, enlarge 
their prosperity, establish many and strong ties of sympathy between the 
governors and governed, and secure the eventual development of the 
magaiiicent and teeming country now entrusted to our charge. 

Mr. Krishnarao Gopal Deshmukh, B.A. — I have heard with very 
great pleasure the elaborate and lengthy, as well as very interesting 
paper which Mr. Tayler has just read to us. I agree entirely with him 
chat the educational department in India should pay the greatest attention 
to the introducing of religious instruction, which I hold to be an indis- 
pensable concomitant of secular teaching, if the latter is to result in and 
assume the high title of education. I do not for a moment depreciate the 
value of secular knowledge; but what I should like to see is, that it should 
be founded upon a religious basis — a basis formed of all those grand, 
broad truths which we find common to all religions, and which are 
' necessary for the satisfaction of the cravings of the soul and the higher 
aspirations ofthe heart. For this purpose, however, it is not necessary 
that India need look beyond herself, or borrow from Christianity or any 
other religion. There is no want of moral and religious precepts both 
among the classical and the vernacular sacred writings of India — 
writings which the inhabitants of that country regard with peculiar 
affection and reverence. If religion means the meditation of God and 
His attributes, and the recognition of the Deity by man in all his acts-^ 
and if morality signifies the teaching of those duties which man owes to 
God, to himself, and to his fellow-creatures — I maintain that there is as 
nmch of true religion and pure morality to be found in the sacred 
writings in India as anywhere else in the world. Certainly they need 


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to be "Winnowed — the chaff removed from the grain; but this does not 
warrant our ignoring the existence of the grain. The Brahmo Somaj 
of Calcutta, founded by the greatest of modern Indian Reformers, the 
learned Eajah Ram Mohun Roy, and its offshoots, the Vedo Somaj of 
Madras, and the Prarthana Somaj of Bombay — are eminently the product 
of an enlightened perusal of the sacred writings of India by a master- 
mind like that of the Rajah, who found uo difficulty, with their help 
alone, in establishing a reformed religion — a religion which stands in the 
foremost ranks of all religions — a religion peculiarly fitted for the 
spiritual life and well-being of civilised man. Mr. Tayler has just 
observed that the sacred witings of the Hindus state that the earth is 
supported by a serpent, the serpent by an elephant, the elephant by a 
tortoise, &c. ; and he no doubt created some mirth and caused some 
laughter by the relation of this fanciful account. I believe that it is 
taken from the Purans, which are notoriously works of fiction, and it 
affects the validity of the sacred literature of India in the same way as 
the topography and physical entity of the places described in Bunyan's 
"Pilgrim's Progress," or Milton's "Paradise Lost," Southey's '• Thalaba,*' 
or Dante's "Divine Comedy," affect the validity of the Gospel. If Mr. 
Tayler peruses the Vedanta, the Uphanisherdhas, the Yogar6shishta, the 
Bhagvadgita, and other similar works, his present opinion will be greatly 
altered. Truth is one and the same; and therefore true religion is all 
over the world one and the same. It is certainly a matter of regret that 
the wretched and ignorant priests of India, who made religion a trade 
and a craft, have corrupted it by the uprearing of the pernicious system 
of caste and of gross idolatry, and supplanting true religion by a hideous 
mass of superstition. They have imposed arbitrary restrictions on 
eating and drinking, and mixing with people of other castes and other 
nations. Such restrictions may appertain to superstition — and what evil 
practice may not] — but they can't be saddled upon religion. The slightest . 
search into the manners and customs of ancient India will show that such 
restrictions were then unknown. The Brahmin often partook of the 
hospitality of the Kohyatriya and other castes. I would not trouble 
you by quotations from the sacred writings of the Hindus to prove that 
they contain the highest moral precepts and religious truths, for these 
can be found by any candid person who peruses the books I have already 
named; but I would simply ask if the precept, "Atmavat sarva bhutani 
pashyet" (t.e.. Regard all beings as thyself), is not tantamount to " Do 
unto others as you would be done by," which is regarded as the essence 
of Christian morality 1 Again — 

'^Ananya chetdh satatam yo mdm Smarati nityasbah 
Tasy&ham sulabhah P^tha nitya yuklasya yoginuh*' — 

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i,e, (the Aimighty says), "He who with a heart and mind solely devoted 
to Me, always remembers M6, to such a saintly one, O Pirthii ! I ena 
easy of access." Is this not equivalent to one of the nine Beatitudes 
— viz. : " Blessed are the pure In heart, for they shall see God "1 Parallel 
passages like these cati be multiplied to any extent ; but I must desist, 
as I find others impatient to address the meetingi I would, howt&Ver, iil 
concluding, just remark that I see no reason why a manual cbntainihg 
broad religious and moral precepts, selected from Indian sacred litera- 
ture, should not be compiled and used in the schools* ThoUgii Ihevi 
are many sects and castes in India, there is a great deal of coinmoti 
religious ground, and the use of such a manual would be acceptable td 
all. So also the introduction of |Prayer, addressed to God without 
involving any doctrinal allusions — e.g., "The Lord's Prayer*' — Would b6 
repulsive to none. The English educational series used In the Bombay 
Presidency, and the system of instruction pursued there, and, I believe, 
in the other presidencies also, are altogether secular in chai-^ter. No 
doubt the books and the isystem have many good points to be additoed 
in their favour ; but I question very much whether mere seciSlar know- 
ledge will suffice to edtccate the human mind either here ot in Indi^ In 
India, where the children may be said generally to be hotH in suj)fersti- 
tioits and idolatrous homes and bred up by tnothers notoriously ignoraiit, 
the introduction of a broad religious system of instrutjtion, as #i^ll as of 
regular hours of prayer, should fDrm a necessary pirt Of A schenie of 
popular education. I consider that a knowledge of the grisind principlids 
and truths of morality and religion is the very niarrow and gertii of all 
education proper; and that in Ihdia the schools become peculiarly thfe 
places for emancipating children from the thraldom of supeb^titic^ clnd 
prejudice, and for impressing upon their minds from an early age broad 
jeligious truths and moral principles. They should be taitght early to 
" fear God and honour the king.'* They should not only kiiow and 
understand the phenomena of Nature, but learn to i-ecognise and obey 
Nature's God, and be traifaed to act> tv^hatever part may fall tb their loft 
in life, firmly believing ih the " Eathei-hood of God and the Brothfetr 
hood of Man." 

Mr. R. H. Elliot. — I would oiffer a feW observations on a part of 
Mr. Tayler's scheme. It is a lii^ll-known fact that yoU must catch yoUl- 
hare before you cook him. Now Mr. Tayler seems to have pi-oposed n^ 
measure by which the hal-e may be caught. He has told Us that 
education must take a practical turn, and the agricultuml clashes aft 
Agricultural turn. But how to catch your agriculturists 1 You InaJ^ 
establish schools in the centre of every county, but without coUipulsioli 
education will not be diffused as it should be. To be of the> slightest 

c 2 

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use it mast l>e compulsorj. In my opinion you should go into every 
village and say, now at certain seasons of the year you are not required 
in the field, and during these periods of the year two boys must come 
regularly to school. As regards the moral training part of the business, 
I roust say I agree with the gentleman that spoke last but one. I think 
there is a sufficient amount of moral training to be found in the old 
Hindoo books. In some respects, indeed, the Asiatic religions go 
further than we do. The Buddhists, for instance, have never persecuted 
in word or deed, or condemned people of other faiths. And to show 
that they are even more particular in their moral commandments than 
we are, I may mention that the fifth commandment of the Buddhists is, 
" Thou shalt not become intoxicated ; " and at Easter, when witnessing 
the conduct of many of our working classes, I thought it would be an 
improvement if we added this to the number of our commandments. 
There is another point I think it is necessary to allude to. In the 
country schools you should have an agricultural education, and the head- 
master of a countiy school should be an agriculturist. The immense 
influence a man thoroughly acquainted with farming in this country can 
obtain there is something astonishing. I have plantations in Mysore, 
and on one occasion I had to send out a Scotch farmer. I was liked 
very well by the natives, at least we got on very well together, but in a 
few months I found he had beaten me altogether ; and when this gentle- 
man died the natives actually threw away their caste to caiTy him to his 
grave. If you get a man with a thorough knowledge of agriculture, and 
you have a firm basis, then bind him and the schoolmaster up together. 
In the centre of every county I would have a head school and make two 
persons from each village attend, and give them every encouragement to 
continue their studies at the more advanced schools of the towns and 
capitals. The agricultural classes would thus have a chance of com- 
peting for Grovernment situations, and this would have an excellent eflect 
in fostering a desire for education amongst the people. One remark 
about getting one language for India. It would be impracticable, when 
you consider that India is as large as all Euroi)e less Russia, and I 
would not press English, or spend much money in its instruction. 
When will a Mysoree read an English book 1 It is altogether out of the 
range of possibility, and therefore I think we should divide India into a 
series of nationalities. I would have a college in the very centre of 
every nationality, and encourage at that college the study of the language 
of that particular country. In this way you would soon start a series ot 
vern^^cular literatures, through which information could readily be con- 
reyed to all classes of the various communities. 

Dr. WijiSoy.r-Mr. Chairman : Though I am only a visitor at this 

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mfeeting, I begj with your permission, to say a ^ord on tlie present occa^' 
sion.- In regard to primary education in India, especially in its eco-' 
nomical aspects, I very much agree with Mr. Tayler. I have been a 
missionary in that country for upwards of f<Tty years, and have marked 
with much interest the progress of education there. I am happy to say 
that of late years the Government has very considerably improved its' 
system of elementary instruction. This is particularly tihe case in the 
Bombay Presidency, to which I belong. Allowances have to be made, 
in connexion witli the peculiar state of India, for the difficulties felt by' 
Government in the matter of moral teaching, for that moral teaching 
must have a basis in recognised Divine law, directing the conscience 
q,nd moral feelings of man. Passages taken from Pantheistic writings, 
like those quoted by my learned friend, Mr. Deskmukh, can scar3ely be 
admitted into school books without implications and explanations with 
which it is difiBcult for Government in any form to identify itself. Such 
a simple preceptive teaching of morality, illustrated by anecdotes and 
incidents, as Mr. Tayler has in his eye, is an easier matter, and has, to a 
great extent, been attended to by Major Candy and Mr. Hope, C.S., in 
the Mar^thi and Gujar^ti school books wliich they have prepared. I 
agree with Mr. Tayler in his desire that the attention of Government 
should be directed, in the first instance, to the vernacular languages. It 
is a wise maxim — 

Let all the foreign tongues alone, 

Till you read and speak your own. 

The prospect of a universal language is certainly very remote ; and ages 
must intervene before such a result can be realised. Most of the lan- 
guages of India rest upon an excellent basis — namely, on the Sanskrit^ 
and those of the Northern family particularly ; and hence English books 
can be prepared in them, and be translated into them with a great 
degree of accuracy. The Government, however, is not contented with' 
primary schools. High schools have been formed,. and great attention is' 
paid in them to the English language. The university system is acting' 
to admiration, and administered with perfect impartiality. As to female- 
education, I most eai-nestly desire its vigorous prosecution. I am in no 
way prepared to concur with a friend who has preceded me in his" 
comparison of the women of England and of India m the matter of 
morality. 1 have had a good deal to do with the natives, and T find 
they always praise the English ladies with whom they are acquainted, 
and admire their purity, truthfulness, and disinterested devotedness to 
their husbands. I have heard the expression of opinion to this effect 
from the prince on the throne to the beggar on the hill of ashes. 1 
should be dl'sposed to ask, with reference to the matter hinted at, in what 

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does tbe restraint and confinement of Oriental females originate, but in 
distniat of their behaviour and that of those whom they might meet I 
But I refrain from saying more on a matter which should not have been 
mentioned in the circumstances that it has been mentioned in this place. 
What the interesting femali« of India requii*e is that instruction which 
they are so ready to receive and profit by. 

Mr. D, Nasmith, LL.B., Member of the Board of Examiners of the 
College of Preceptors. — Education is a subject to which I have turned 
my attention very closely for some years ; one in which I feel deeply 
interested ; one which I conceive to be as important, if not more so, 
than any other to which the attention can be directed. I have listened 
with the greatest interest to the exceedingly able paper read by Mr. 
Tayler, and have taken down all the heads. I make this remark because 
some false impressions appear to exist concerning it. In my opinion 
the paper is as applicable to England as it is to India. We know 
perh£^s less about education as a science than any subject to which the 
intelligent mind of England has been directed. Much has been said 
by preceding speakers concerning religion. I unhesitatingly say, that 
ao long as we insist on intruding religion into the question of national 
education we shall never succeed. Of this no doubt can be entertained, 
that when England was yet in a state of barbarity, India was already 
far advanced in civilisation. Therefore India must possess (if it is true 
that men and nations rise in proportion to the nobility of their 
sentiments and principles), in the teachings of its early instructors, 
divine sentiments. Whether such sentiments have been marred by the 
priest in England or India is of little importance to the subject before 
us, and I trust that we shall studiously avoid discussing theological 
peculiarities. The illustrations given by the learned lecturer concerning 
the subjects taught speak volumes, and the expression " disqualifying 
education'' — a term quite new to me — is exceedingly good. Nothing 
could be more forcible. I have no hesitation in giving it as my firm 
conviction that the major part of the instruction in English schools is of 
a disqualifying character. If in our schools English, for example, was 
taught, and progress made in our own language, there can be little 
doubt that we should witness beneficial results ; as it is the time of the 
majority of the English pupils is wasted in learning things utterly use- 
less, while the most important subjects are wholly ignored. I lay great 
stress upon the state of education in England, because if we undertake 
the education of India we shall unquestionably do there much the same 
as we do here. If our system is imperfect, how can it be expected that 
we shall there institute one that is perfect ? I will not trespass further 
than by saying that I hope Mr. Tayler's lecture will be printed and 

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extensively read by EuglishmeD, to whom it may prove as profifcable as 
to Indians. 

Mr. J. liAUEiE (formerly H. M. Inspector of Schools and Director 
of Public Instruction in Ceylon) observed that the numerous questions 
of detail which formed the pet theme of this or that educationist were, 
in all essential particulars, fully understood and more or less appreciated, 
by efficient heads of education departments. Without depreciating the 
general advantages of agitation, the grand security for the introduction 
of enlightened and comprehensive schemes was, to arrange aright the 
gear of the governmental machinery. When, for example, a director of 
public instruction was appointed, the presumption should be that he 
understands his subject better than any one else. Instead, therefore, of 
occupying a subordinate position, and of being hampered by niggling 
and embarrassing restrictions, he should be assigned a place on the 
Council, in the capacity of Minister of Public Instruction. At all events, 
when his pecuniary limits have been laid down by the Government, he 
should be armed with full powers to administer the funds placed at his 
disposal, in accordance with a clearly-defined plan emanating from 
himself and approved by the Government. Having lately had some 
Kttle experience as Director in Ceylon, he was in a position to state that 
the office was not reg\ilated on any such rational principle. He had not 
been endowed with the power of granting a single requisition — even to 
the extent of a bottle of ink — ^until the sanction of the Colonial 
Secretary had been procured. And since a similar principle pervaded 
every department, requisitions were, of course, submitted in regular 
order, so that six or eight weeks, sometimes months, elapsed before 
anything could be done. During the south-east monsoon he received 
an urgent appeal from a schoolmaster for a trifling grant towards 
fortifying the school premises against the raging storm. The requisition 
was returned by the Colonial Secretary six weeks after date negatived, 
as usual ; but this was of no consequence, as the premises had already 
been blown down. Mr. Laurie further stated that the education grant 
is seldom fairly expended, for the poor (for whom the public measure 
was originally devised) have not, to anything like a proportionate 
extent, benefited thereby. *' You will find," he continued, " vast 
districts in which no schools exist, and in another privileged district 
plenty of schools kept up in an imperfect way, the cost sometimes 
reaching 221, per head ; all expended on the instruction of the sons and 
daughters of persons quite able to pay their own charges.^* During his 
tour in Ceylon, whenever he arrived at a village he was waited upcn by 
a deputation asking for a school— a deputation representing the very 
class who contribute the largest proportion of the public tax. The 
natives were perfectly willing to build the requisite premises, and to his 

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request whether they would do this and . provide a salary for the school- 
master, he never received a negative reply. Nevertheless, on his 
representing these facts, in conjunction with not leas than forty memo- 
rials from other quarters, the GoTemment simply turned a deaf ear ; 
while he was advised to regard all such demands as so many exhibitions 
of oriental flattery ! Mr. Laurie remarked, in conclusion : " Such, is a 
tolerably generic sample of the way in which things are managed in the 
East, where even my modest proposal tx) eaamine the school teachers 
under Government was pronounced to be a revolutionary proposal. 
Some idea might hence be formed of the rate of progression of the most 
vital question of the day, in connection with a bureaucratic system of 
regime which assigns to its heads of departments the position and func- 
tions of mechanical clerks." 

Mr, Hodgson Pratt. — Having had some small share in carrying 
out the despatch of 1854, which formed a new era of education in India, 
I would say a few words. Mr. Tayler*s paper, Sir, may be divided into 
two parts — the first dealing with one defect in Indian schools, the second 
with another. First: The unsatisfactory character of the moral or 
ethical teaching. I must say that ] do not think Mr. Tayler has, from 
this point of view, done justice to the system or its results. A tree 
must be judged by its fruits; and 1 would ask any one who is 
acquainted with India whether he does not think that, on the whole, 
the moral results of our Indian system of education have been most 
satisfactory. So far from agreeing with him in the view he appears to 
take, that the tendency of Indian school teaching is to lower the pre- 
viously existing standard of morality, I think the result has been of an 
entirely opposite character. Let any man compare the present moral 
condition, moral ideas, moral tone of thought, character, and conduct 
of the educated natives of India with what was the case when the 
English first appeared among them, and I cannot but think that there 
must be a unanimous reply that the results are most encouraging. 
(Hear, hear.) If you can prove that those natives who have been 
brought up in our high English schools have derived the greatest 
possible benefit from our English literature, then, on the same prin- 
ciple, the natives who are attending the secondary-class schools, and have 
been made acquainted with that English literature, will derive corre- 
sponding benefit, though not to the same extent. No educational efforts 
in any part of the world have been attended with more satisfactory 
results than they have in India, When we came to India we found 
general corruption. Now the educated native is trustworthy in every 
sense of the word. Mr. Tayler complained of the character of the 
English books selected for use in the schools. From my experience of 
higher and secondary schools, my impression is that very different ideas 

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were conveyed to the Indian youths than those connected with the 
7>oetical attractions of " Chloe." The literature provided for our pupils 
was not confined to books or writings of that character. It comprised 
the great teachings of Shakesi)eare, Pope, Milton, and Wordsworth, 
described by Mr. Tayler as " doubtful moralists." The question of the 
best means of realising moral results by school education is of extreme 
importance, because it involves a principle not only applicable to India, 
but to England. Mr. Tayler thought that one great defect in the 
Indian schools was that morality was not taught by systematic treatises. 
I think, on the contrary, that the principles of morality are conveyed 
far more eflfectively by means of biography and imaginative literature — 
by morality taught in the concrete, not in the abstract. Such teaching 
gives far more life and meaning, and leaves a deeper impression. 
(Heap.) A large class of men in India must be trained so that they 
may- be pioneers of true civilisation among their own countrymen. We 
must reach the people through the natives of India. In every depart- 
ment of Government we must rely on native agency, and the native 
agents must therefore be educated in English literature. As regaixls 
the second part of Mr. Tayler's paper — ^that which insists uywn the 
necessity of giving a more practical character to the instruction afforded 
in the second grade of schools — I agree with him most thoroughly. I 
have taken some interest in technical instniction in England, and I 
know from personal experience how deficient is the provision for 
teaching the elements of science in our primary schools. Consequently, 
the workmen and apprentices who attend night schools find it very 
difficult to derive benefit from the instruction there afforded. We 
should not therefore complain because schools in India have not made 
more rapid progress than schools at home. Englishmen must do justice 
to the Government of India in the matter of education, for their efforts 
have produced results even more satisfactory than those in England, if 
due consideration be given to the shortness of the period during which 
education in India has had an opportunity of developing itself. 

S. N. Bannebjea, Esq. (Bengal Civil Service). — It would be im- 
possible to select a subject of greater importance than that on 
which Mr. Tayler has read a paper. Before I make any remarks I 
will, with your permission, clear up a misimpression which exists in 
some quarters with respect to the exact position occupied by the natives 
of Bengal with reference to this great question. About eight months 
ago, when Government proposed to withdraw State aid from high Eng- 
lish education for the purpose of applying it to the education of the 
masses, a great number of meetings were held in Bengal, and notably 
one in Calcutta. It has been assumed from the opinions expressed in 
those meetings that the educated natives of Bengal are against mass 

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educ^tioo. It ia a great mistake to tbiuk so. We all recognise the 
great ioiportance o£ mass education We aU know it would be im- 
possible to civilise India without it. The only question is, who is to 
pc^y for it 1 Mr. Tayler has only hinted at it. 

Chairman, — That is a question you had better not enter into. 

Mr. B. (continuing). — Government wants to withdraw aid from 
high education and devote it to mass education. There could be 
no objection to this proposal if the data on which Government apr 
.pave^tly proceeds were true, and if the burden fell where it was in- 
tended by the Government that it should fall. Government seems to think 
that these institutions would be self-supporting ; and so they would be 
if they were attended by the sons of the rich zemindars only. But, Sir, 
I know that it is ^ot the sons of the rich who avail themselves of the 
benefits of high English education, but people in comparatively humble 
circumstances. If Governnient withdraws its aid, the immediate effect 
of such a measure would be to compel a great many persons of this class 
to give up their studies, and the country would be the loser. Their 
talents and abilities, which, improved by high culture, would have 
been siich a gain to the State, even in a mere economical point of view, 
would be almost uselessly thrown away. Besides, it is to be remembered 
that it is men who have risen from humble positions in life who have 
done the most good to their fellows. English histoiy presents to us a 
number of such instances; and the same thing occurs in the East. 
Accustomed to labour and exertion, and with minds pre-eminently 
practical, they are the men who appreciate rightly what is best 
for those amongst whom their lot is cast, and how it is to be 
carried out most successfally. If, then, it is unwise on the part 
of Govei-nment to withdraw the aid it gives to high English 
education for the purpose of mass education, the question to be 
settled is, how can the edncation of the maases be accompliahefili 
The people cannot be further taxed for it. I think it wonld be no in- 
justice if a special tax were laid on the zemindars for this purpose. It 
is an economical fact that the zemindars have obtained a great accession 
to their wealth tfaroagh the infiaence of natural causes and hj the meie 
progress of society. To this portion of their wealth the State has an 
undottbted claim, provided, of course, the State allows them the alter- 
native of paying the present market value of their estates, for that 
includes the present value of all future expectations. I think the pro- 
visions of the Permanent Settlement present no obstacles to such a 
procedure. But, Sir, I will not enter into the merits of this question. 
I can oinly allude to it. The next question to be decided is, what is 
to be the kind of education for the masses--— English or vernacular? I, fer 
one, would stand up for English education. What we want to give to 

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the masses is strong common sense ; and for sach a purpose I knov of 
no kind of instruction which possesses greater rocommendations than 
English. I should propose that they should be taught vennsucular enough 
to accustom them to studious habits, and then they should be instructed 
in the practical branches of English education. It would be a mere 
waste of money to teach them only the vernacular. We have had 
enough of the stories of the wars between gods and goblins in the Kama- 
yana and other works. At the present moment we ought to give them 
an education which will make them better workmen, better agricul- 
turists, better farmers, better citizens, and, in short, better men. 

Mr. S. B. TuAKUR remarked that Mr. Tayler had alluded to popular 
education as deficient in morality, an evil he wishes to remedy. Mr. 
Thakur, however, was of opinion that the Hindoos are not wanting in 
morality. The insinuation of Koer Singh, that schoolboys would, if the 
chance occurred, purloin his Mala, he considered utterly false. Koer 
Singh was himself no scholar, and education must needs interfere with 
native superstition. He would never suspect a schoolboy of dishonesty. 
He acknowledged that it sounded ridiculous to hear poor Bujoo Das 
reading poetry, but a nation cannot be civilised without sacrifices ; and 
he was confident that the lives, incomprehensible as they might at present 
be, would create profitable results, for the poor lad, learning sufficient to 
open his eyes to his own dark state of mind, would naturally determine 
that his children at least should receive the benefits of a thorough educa- 
tion. It was useless, he remarked, to instruct people in certain branches 
of knowledge without previoua education, and therefore he disagreed 
with that part of Mr. Tayler^s scheme. 

Sir Donald MacLeod, after stating that the remarks he had heard 
that evening from one or two native gentlemen had rather surprised 
and deeply pained him, expressed his hearty concurrence in Mr. 
Taylor's views, and believed that the paper which Mr. Tayler had 
Wiitt^n would be productive of much good. In alluding to practical 
education, and the use of the vernacular languages, Mr. Tayler had 
expressed his sentiments exactly. He had been surprised to hear a native 
gentleman express the opinion that the English language alone should be 
employed by us as the channel of education in India. However valuable 
in its proper place, he utterly denied the possibility of educatiog the 
laass of the people save through their own vernacular. In connexion 
with this he had long advocated greater attention to the classical 
languages and learned lore of India than we have hitherto paid them. 
In former days and under native rule a man of learning, who devoted 
himself to teaching and literary and scientific pursuits, could obtain for 
himself a livelihood which was to him a sufficiency, while he was held in 

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great respect by his couhtiymen. Such, however, is no longer the CAse 
under our rule, and it is most difficult now for a man of learning to 
obtain a competence, if he confine himself to the pursuit of literature 
or science — ^a change which he much regretted. On this account he 
had endeavoured to have endowments formed in the Punjab for 
establishing fellowships, by the enjoy aient of which learned men, who 
mastei-ed their own classical languages and acquired at the same tiuie, 
through the English language, a knowledge of the literature or science of 
the West, might be enabled to devote their lives wholly to learned 
pursuits, and to improving the vernacular literature of their country by 
translations and compositions on subjects calculated to enlighten the 
mind. One of his last acts, on leaving the Punjab, was to recommend 
that a munificent gift of upwards of 5,000Z., presented by the Maharajah 
of Cashmere, might be devoted to this object. But he could, not say 
whether this recommendation had been carried out. He thought 
likewise, that in regard to education, as to all else, we should take the 
people of India more into our confidence than we had hitherto done ; 
and he had accordingly established at Lahore an educational council or 
senate, in connection with the University College at that place, which is 
veiy largely composed of the aristocracy and gentry of the Punjab. 
These now take a keen interest in educational matters, which they will 
stiive to iufusc into their countrymen generally, and it can hardly be 
doubted that their advice and suggestions will prove most useful. *' There 
" is one remark," he observed, " which I would lose no opportunity of 
*' urging — viz., that to raise a people in the scale of nations, something 
*^ more than mere intellectual education is necessary ; and that this can 
^' only be attained by what may be termed political education — that is, 
<^ allowing them a share in the management of their own municipal affairs* 
>' This I believe to be the one stimulus which, above all others, will give 
" a nation the desire fur improvement. The mere love of knowledge in 
" the abstract, for its own sake, is not, if we may judge from the ex- 
*^ perience of the past, sufficient to secure a general pursuit of it, unless 
*' its acquisition lead to some tangible reward ; and no reward will prove 
^' so acceptable or so operative, as regards the nation at large, as the 
** assurance that each individual will be allowed a position of influence 
^* in the local councils in proportion as he shows himself qualified to exer- 
** cise it. As a nation becomes conscious of this result, in that ratio it 
<^ will become an intelligent, vigorous, and high-minded nation, and a 
** desire for knowledge will rapidly spring up. I have been greatly stiiick 
** by remarks made on Hussia in the public press to the eifect that since 
*^ the sei-fs have been emancipated there has been progressingly evinced 
^* an intense desiie for the attainment of knowledge as they have been 

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'* entrusted with some share in public affairs, and their wish has been to 
"make themselves fit for the execution of the duties. With us, in 
" India, the great idea of the students iu our schools and colleges is to 
" obtain stipendiary employment under Government. But this is not 
" suflBcient for a nation. It must have a much larger share in all the 
" adminibtrative details of social life before it can become imbued with 
" self-respect and a spirit of progress, and this every nation should pos- 
'* sess. It has been remarked to-night, that even in England the system 
" of education is very defective, and there is, no doubt, truth in this. 
" Yet England has attained to a foremost place in the scale of nations, 
" and I for one feel convinced that this largely is owing to the republican 
" spiiit of its institutions, which gives to a large portion of the com- 
" munity a voice in the administration of the affairs of the body politic, 
** and thus induces, on the part of all who are well disposed, a desire to 
" show- themselves worthy of consideration. The more we can do in 
" India towards securing a similar result, the more I believe we shall 
" promote the cause of education." He went on to remark that a great 
deal has been done of late years, in some parts of India, by the creation 
of municipal committees, the establishment of honorary magistrates, and 
other similar measures, to familiarise the people with self-government ; 
and although their functions are, for the most part, of an honoraiy 
character at^ present, such posts are highly appreciated. He expressed 
the hope that much more would be done in the future in the same direc- 
tion ; and entertained no doubt that a great stimulus to progress would 
be thereby afforded to the people. 

Sir Arthur Cotton. — I am not an educationist. I have taken 
great interest in India, and have seen a good deal of it, as well as of the 
natives. I agree in the leading points of Mr. Tayler's paper, which I 
consider wise and practical. The two points we have to consider are 
these : Moral instruction and secular trainings, which will fit them for 
the business of life. A few years ago I was travelling with a gentleman 
through a country I was in charge of forty years before. " I knew every 
stone in this part of the country,*' I said. " Indeed !" replied my friend ; 
'* then what has been the effect of our rule and education T I was 
startled at the question, and still more so at my reply. " Nothing," I 
replied. There is not a sign of change in these villages ; the same abject 
poverty and utter ignorance as they indicated thirty five years ago. Mr. 
Tayler's paper, therefore, I heartily support, and feel its wisdom and 
sound sense. 

William Tayler, Esq. — I should have liked to answer the different 
6peakei*s, but time will not permit. I would, however, say one or two 
words, because- there seems to have been some misunderstanding. I in 

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no way int^nd^d t6 insinuate that no other code of religion possesses 
any systenl of morisLlity. What I meant was that the system which has 
been given to its is sUch that if Mahotnedans, Buddhists, and Hindoos 
were to examine it they would all recognise its sublimity and complete- 
ness as a System, irrespective of doctrinal Christianity, which of course 
they would not wish to include in our educational course. The opinions 
of Mr. Hodgson Pratt would have been entitled to greater weight had 
they been relevant to the subject before us, instead of being directed to 
the higher education, a question which I purposely avoided. I confess 
I cannot see, because high education has improved the recipients, that 
the second-class education which I have ventured to pourtray is neces* 
sarily good, or free from the defects which I have endeavoured to point 
out. The lateness of the hour forbids further remark, but I can- 
not forbear from expressing my satisfaction that my remarks have been 
followed by such an interesting discussion, and my extreme gratification 
at finding my views supported and approved by such eminent and dis- 
tinguished individuals as those who have expressed their concurrence in 

The Chairman. — Two points, I think, have come out very clearly, 
during the interesting discussion that hais followed Mr. Tayler's address. 
Fii-st, there was a very general concurrence in the general object of 
Mr. Tayler's paper, as to the advisability of practical and industrial 
education being spread in India ; and another was an equally general 
agreement that whatever deficiencies existed in the Government educa- 
tion of India are deficiencies which have hitherto existed under Govern- 
ment education in England, and which are, to some extent^ being supplied 
and remedied. In fact, one of tlfe most distinguished and respected 
educationists in India, Dr. Wilson, explained that many improvements 
have taken place since the time of Mr. Tayler's own experience. I 
think at this late hour I can only venture to say a few words in defence 
of a character who was introduced by Mr. Tayler imder the name of 
Bujoo Das. It was remarked in the paper that a Hindu youth — 
expressly, so I understood Mr. Tayler, because he was a Hindu — could 
not appreciate the higher flights of lyric poetry and transcendental love* 
But I really think that there is no specially Asiatic deficiency here, and 
that the village " Hodge *' in England would be as incapable of compre- 
hending the beauties of a sonnet addressed to Chloe's eyebrow as any 
Hindu ploughboy could be. Another point is evident ; instruction in 
systematic morality, such as Mr. Tayler has recommended, and which, 
for my part, I think certainly ought to be one of the first objects of 
education, is quite as systematically neglected in English education as it 
is in the Government schools of India. When I was at school I was 

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taught catechisms and collects iH abundance, but as to mofelily, tliat I 
was left to ]nck up as best t could j and the same, I think, is the general 
experience of English schoolboys. I cordially agree with what Sir 
Donald MacLeod t?old us, with all the weight of his great authority, 
that the most practical stimulus of education in India must be political 
— the hope of a career, and of some share in the government of one's 
own country. By saying this I think he gave the right tone, and a 
fitting termination to the whole discussion of this evening. I would 
close by proposing what I am sure will be unanimously approved — the 
thanks of this meeting to the Lecturer. (Carried.) 

A vote of thanks to the Chairman, and to the Council of the Society 
of Arts for tlie use of their Rooms, concluded the proceedings. 


I need scarcely remark (as it is a fact now perhaps universally adndtted) that 
there are two distinct objects to he aimed at, and two distinct modes of operation 
to be observed in the great work of education in India ; and, tjiough these two 
may be more or less linked together as time advances and leads knowledge in its 
train, at present they are separate, and must be separately treated. 

These two objects are : First, the provision of a special standard of instruction 
which may qualify men for the distinctions of scholastic attainment, the pure 
enjoyments of knowledge, or the more material advantages of public service. 
Secondly, the education of the people. 

For the first, which is a special work directly affecting the few, but in no way 
touching the mass (save to rivet their chains and render their darkness darker by 
contrast), provision, though as yet imperfect, has been made^ and is daily being 
extended in the establishment of English schools and colleges. 

All that is required to bring the thirsting few to these fountains is to make the 
schools systematic channels of preferment in the public service and college or 
university distinction. 

But the great work of national education, which has millions for its subject, 
must be achieved through the language already familiar to those millions. 

To a certain extent, motives of self-interest may in this work also be brought 
into play, as indeed they have been in this province, by making education, as far 
as possible, a necessary passport even to the lowest grade of service. 

But even this still leaves the nation untouched, and it is the general uplifting 
of the entire mass which philanthropy desires and justice demands at our hands. 

It is to be feared that if instruction is confined to mere book learning, the 
effort thus to secure the advancement of the people, if not altogether vain, will, in 
Behar at least, be a work of centuries. 

It is idle to expect that the poorer classes will allow their sons to leave their 
daily occupations, and thus incur a certain immediate loss, for a prospective benefit 
which they neither understand nor believe. 

Doubtless, a certain number of schools may be established by zemindars, and 
maintained tiurough their influence and the influence of the local authorities; 

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still, nnless we carry with us the sympathies of the people themselves, there can he 
no sure or permanent vUcUity in these scJiools, and the end ¥^ be that, immeiiwitely 
the external influence is withdrawn, the schools will fail. 

Thinking deeply and anxiously of these things, it has appeared to me that if a 
system could be brought into play which would combine book instruction with 
practical education in industrial pursuits, the deadly obstacles presented by the 
apathy and indifiference of the mass might be removed, and, with this idea, after 
much deliberation, I have ventured to propose the plan which is now about to be 
carried into effect. 

Before entering upon the details of this scheme, I would observe generally, 
that the great object aimed at is to place before the people a system of instruction 
which, while it brings out to a certain extent their moral and intellectual faculties, 
will also and at the same time afford a direct and tangible object on which those 
faculties may be exercised, and thus to let them learn and feel that- the knowledge 
they acquire* is not an immaterial or speculative acquisition to bear fruit or not, as 
the case may be, at some indefinite future time, but the source of immediate and 
direct benefit to them in their necessary and daily pursuits ; in short, that they are 
9iot required to sacrifice the stomach to the brain. Thus when the son of the 
carpenter, farmer, or blacksmith asks to receive instruction in his trade, I would 
give it him on condition that he also learn to read» write, and cipher, and make 
himself master of at least the rudimentary principles of his peculiar trade. 

There is nothing much more saddening than the sight of a few intelligent, but 
unwilling pupils, conning over a humdrum and barren task, with neither hope nor 
interest, with no recognition of the advantage to be gained, and no faith in those 
who bewilder them with an unintelligible philanthropy. 

Nothing could be more hopeful and interesting than a concourse of the same 
lads, each impelled by attachment to familiar studies, and stimulated by the pro- 
ispect of real and recognised advantages, acquiring daily skill in practice and daily 
knowledge of principles, the foundation of future advancement. 

I am hopeful that such a system, carefully organised and liberally carried out, 
will be successful, that it will remove the great obstacle that has hitherto been 
the stumbling-block in our way, and supply the great motive which moves the 

The scheme, moreover, as now projected, has this further advantage, that in 
thus instructing the masses in the various industrial arts, and bringing the whole 
intellectual man into play, another end will be accomplished — viz., the development 
of the resources of the country, and a general improvement in the important 
science of culture and production. 

Two great works will thus go hand in hand and. mutually support and aid each 

It is also so arranged that every class will have an interest in the work, from 
the wealthy rajah to the destitute orphan ; while its catholic and comprehensive 
character is such as at once to refute the objections of the bigoted religionist, to 
put the opposing fanatic out of court, and shame the cavils of all idle objectors. 

Furthermore, it will go far to re-establish the natural union between study and 
work, to give labour the honourable position which it ought ever to occupy ; and 
by the contact of mind with mind, the constant sight and study of scientific results, 
the occasional gatherings of all classes of people and frequent succession of new 
objects of interest and inquiry, it may, in course of time, rouse the apathetic spirit 
of the people, and raise their minds to higher and to better things. 

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Having made these general observations I will now briefly toach upon each 
department of the scheme. 


Without entering at length upon the much mooted question, to what extent 
the rural economy of Europe is adapted to an Indian ground and Indian climate, 
it is, I imagine, safe to assume that the present system is susceptible at least of 
some improvement. It is safe to assume that the skill, the science, and the re- 
searches of the West, which have of late years been brought so eflfectively to bear 
upon the great question of productive industry, must be, to some extent at least, 
applicable to India, and that there is no peremptory law or inherent speciality in 
that portion of the broad bosom of our mother Earth which basks under an Indian 
sun, to render it an exception to the rest of the world. 

I cannot believe in what some people have called the * immutability of Indian 

I cannot think that nakedness, dirt, and ignorance are to be the eternal destiny 
of millions. 

I cannot think it necessary that the Indian plough should only ** scratch 
the surface of the ground," that the bullocks, whose unhappy tails are twisted by 
a naked ploughman, should alioays be bare-boned and ill-begotten, or that the 
ploughman himself should be always naked or '* half clothed with a cotton cloth ;" 
that crops should for ever depend on the accidents of weather, and no one dream 
that husbandry is a science, or that knowledge or study have any connexion with 
the earth or its products. 

The object, then, of this department of the institution will be to disseminate 
scientific truths, to introduce new products, to test by experiment such of the 
more obvious of the plans and improvements as have been found eminently suc- 
cessful in Europe, and as may appear in the eyes of cautious and experienced 
people to be applicable to ladiau farming ; to direct the attention of zemindars, 
farmers, and agriculturists to these products, plans, and improvements, and to 
induce them to adopt such as may be found to answer or to offer fair promise and 
likelihood of success. 

If nothing else were to be gained, i^ would be no little matter to have excited 
the interest of the landholders and people, and to have roused a spirit of inquiry. 

The native mind is well able to appreciate the results of scientific experiments 
when made palpable to the senses, and the farmers of Behar will not be slow tp 
adopt what is proved to be profitable. 

I have no idea of attempting to force upon the people an artificial system of 
high farming, with its elaborate appliances and doubtful results ; but I feel very 
sanguine that the gradual and judicious introduction of better ploughs, threshing 
machines, and similar aids to industry will be eminently useful. 


The improvement of the breed of cattle is a matter of practical utility and 
speedy results. 

A few EngUsh bulls have, at various times, been introduced into these districts 
by individual gentlemen, and the greediness with which their society has been 
sought for, and the acuteness with which clandestine interviews have been con- 
trived by the cow-keepers, has proved how fully they understand the value of 
superior stock. 

The half-breeds which have sprung from this illicit intercourse are now eagerly 
sought for, aiid purchased at high prices. 

This will form a regular branch of the institution, and I anticipate the hearty 
co-operation of the great landlords, indigo planters, and others in the WQrk. > 

No. 8.— Vol. V. * » 

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Whether any aatiafaotory results are likely to be attained by endeavours to 
improve the breed of sheep I cannot venture to predict, but the subject will form 
matter for eareful inquiry and experiment. 

Questions have been circulated through the collectors of the districts to all 
those who are supposed competent to supply information on this subject, and much 
valuable information has already been collected. 


The primary object contemplated in this school is the instruction of the sons 
of the middling and lower classes in useful knowledge — knowledge, that will aid 
them in the pursuits of life, give them rational subjects of thought and inquiry, 
and qualify them to protect their rights and fulfil their destinies as reasonable and 
intelligent beiDgs. 

To this end I propose that all instruction should, at all events for some time, be 
conveyed through the medium of the languages to which they are accustomed, 
viz. — Oordoo and Hindee. 

At first, therefore, the teaching will be confined to reading, writing, arithmetic, 
and moral training ; after a certain time elementary education in the more useful 
sciences can be added, and the standard raised as the pupils progress. 

My expectation is, that all those who enter the institution with a view to 
instruction in the several branches of practical manipulative art, will, also, gladly 
take advantage of the instruction provided in the school ; and, with the view to 
combine both kinds of education, I would allow them during one portion of the day 
to attend the several industrial departments, and during the other portion to 
receive instruction in the school Arrangements will be made for .providing ac- 
commodation for all pupils who may come from a distance, on payment of a 
reasonable rent. 

The studies which may be subsequently introduced will be carefully con- 
sidered in consultation with the Director of Public Instruction and the Officers of 
the Educational Department. 

One of the uses of the Museum will be to aid this school by placing before the 
eyes of the boys such objects as in the study of natural philosophy may be men- 
tioned or referred to. 

With this view the masters will be allowed, under certain restrictions, either 
to take articles from the collection, or to bring the students into the Museum, at 
stated times. 

As I consider physical activity " and the development of the bodily power of 
■infinite importance, I propose to set apart a piece of ground for a gymnasium and 
playground, and, if possible, to encourage the students to avail themselves of 
both, and thus acquire manly and active habits. 


Although the cultivation of art in the higher branches is not one of the urgent 
wants of society in Behar, a commencement of elementary instruction in these 
branches will not be premature or unsuited to the capacity and prospects of many 
of the youths of the province. 

If, therefore, masters can be procured, I propose at once to form a small 
4rawing and modelling class, and subsequently extend the instruction to engraving 
on wood, works of design, photography, &c. 

There are many youths about Patna who show a decided capacity for drawing, 
and who, under good instruction, would make rapid progress. 

Architectural and plan drawing might be also profitably taught ; but all such 
details will be the subject of future consideration, and the conmiencement will 
depend upon the praotioability of procuring teachers. 

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It is hoped that some of the more adranced pupils of the school in Calcutta or 
Madras may be qualified to teach the elements of these arts until circumstances 
admit of more efficient agency. 


The object of the Museum will be to collect specimens of all the natural 
products of the province — minerals, earths, medicinal drugs, woods, ice., fto., as 
well as all manufactured articles of every description, with detailed and accurate 
information in regard to each. 

These will be systematically arranged and classified as they are received ; the 
price and place of manufacture will be affixed to each fabricated article, the place 
of growth or production to each natural object, while a catalogue will be kept 
of the whole collection from the commencement. 

In process of time, doubtless, contributions will be received from other districts, 
and a more general and comprehensive collection be amassed. 

The practical utility of such a Museum can scarcely be doubted. It will tend 
to display as well as to develope the resources of the district. Information in 
regard to all the products and fabrications will be readily obtained by all inquirers, 
and a subject of rational amusement and intellectual gratification will be at 
all times available to the students of the institution. 

I propose to call upon all the local officers, intelligent natives, planters, and 
other residents for aid and co-operation in the formation of this collection, and hope 
that in a very short time it will be replete with interest. 


In forming a Library my plan will be to purchase at once a few standard works 
on the principal arts and sciences which appertain to the several branches of 
instruction in the institution — i.e., ao;riculture, farming, natural philosophy, 
agricultural chemistry, <fec., &c. 

This will form the nucleus of a collection which may, by purchase and dona- 
tion, be hereafter indefinitely extended. 

I would, in the same way, buy a small collection of useful Oriental works, with 
the same anticipation of future addition. 

The Library, like the Museum, will be open on certain conditions to the 
students of the school, and to such of the public as may be qualified to profit by 
the use of the books. 

I have little doubt that valuable and extensive donations will be made by the 
friends of education, as the institution becomes known, and I should hope that 
the Government would contribute copies of any works that may be at their 


The manipulative dexterity of the natives has ever been a subject of admira- 
tion and eulogy, and the wonderful skill displayed in the imitation of European 
workman9hip, even with the most coarse and common tools, is a never-failing 
source of wonder to the intelligent and observing. 

This fact, admitted by all who most differ on other points, has led many to the 
conclusion that improvement of the tools, patterns, and modes of workmanship 
would not tend to raise the standard of work. 

There is some truth and much error in this conclusion. 

It may be very true that the native, whose body is as supple as a worm, and 
who has inherited a readiness of squatting from fifty generations, who can pick up 
a hammer with his toe and hold a plank between his feet as firmly as in a vice — 
may not work at a benohi any better with upright back and may be embarrassed 

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if debarred tbe use of his nether fingers. Bat this is no reason that sharper chisels, 
istronger saws, and more scientific modes of workmanship will not tend to still 
greater precision and rapidity of execution ; thajb the constant inspection of good 
models, with instruction in the principles of design and the elements of form, may 
hot (at least, in some instances) give the mere servile imitator a higher and more 
enlarged capacity. 

On this principle I intend to establish workshops of every kind; and while I 
obtain from the hands of the artisans employed all the works required for the esta- 
blishment, I shall also endeavour gradually to introduce better tools and a better 


The organisation of this institution will afiford an excellent opportunity for the 
establishment of a charitable orphan asylum. 

The object of this asylum will be to afford food, shelter, and sound practical 
instruction to as many orphans and destitute children as the funds will admit of ; 
and it is believed that such an establishment will offer an appropriate channel for 
Christian charity. 

If the majority of English residents in the districts within this division con- 
sent to aid this scheme, even by a small monthly contribution, an ample provision 
may be made for hundreds of children who would otherwise be brought up to 
misery, starvation, or crime. 

The proposal is that a certain number of cottages should be built for the 
accommodation of the children, that they should receive suitable food and clothing, 
under proper superintendence, and, when their ages admit of it, that they should 
obtuin instruction in the several departments of useful knowledge, adapted to 
their capacities, and thus become useful and contented ^lembers of the com- 

Such an establishment would be a token to the world, that in the midst of our 
abundance we are not unmindful of the children of affliction, while, at the same 
time, the systematic devotion of the funds to a specific object will secure a greater 
amount of practical and permanent good than any separate or isolated efforts of 
benevolence could possibly achieve. 

I must not omit to point out that, with an institution of the character above 
indicated — with every description of instruction available — with workshops, farm, 
schools of industry, agriculture, and art — a library and museum for reference 
and illustration — the whole establishment sustained by a liberal income, and each 
department efficiently supervised — a machinery ^vill be in existence admirably 
adapted for training up a body of teachers in every branch of general knowledge 
and useful industry, to meet the demands of the Education Department. Schools 
are now being established by the rajahs and zemindars under my superintendence 
in all the districts of the division, and it is of the utmost importance that teachers 
should be trained to undertake the management of them. 

A central Normal School might be established in connection with this institu- 
tion, and if stipends be offered to the candidates while under instruction, and an 
assurance be given that on their obtaining a diploma they will have a preferential 
title to employment — this desirable end will be secured, and a body of men may 
eventually be sent out qualified to teach in the common Vernacular Schools or in^ 
branch Industrial Schools similar to the parent establishment. 

William Tayler, 
Patna, 1856. Commissioner of Patna. 

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MARCH 28, 1871. 

E. B. EASTWICK, Esq., C.B., M.P., F.R.S., in the Chair. 

Address by Sir James Elphinstone, Bart., M.P., 
On the subject of a Ship Canal between India and Ceylon. 

Chairman. — I have here a letter frora Mr. McNeil, in which he says 
that he is unable to attend in consequence of a pre-engagement ; and I 
would also say, just before I ask Sir James Elphinstone to address the 
meeting, that we are not going to listen to a mere theorist, but to a gen- 
tleman who is practically acquainted with this subject, and who was 
Chairman of a Committee of the House of Commons, which sat in 1862, 
to inquire into this subject, and who has also visited the locality, with 
which he is perfectly acquainted. I would say, with regard to the 
locality, that it is one of the most interesting in the Eastern Seas. It is 
most interesting to scientific men, because it is the spot which shows 
that Ceylon was once joined to the Continent of India, and it is interest- 
ing to the people of India as being the scene of what 1 may call the 
Hindoo Odyssey — it joins Ceylon to Rameseram, and it is the spot from 
which Rama is supposed to have gone across to recover his wife in 
Ceylon. It is also the most southern spot of Hindoo pilgrimage. 
Hindoo pilgrimage begins a little west of Simla, and then goes round 
at the foot of the Himalaya Mountains (o Hirdwar, and so comes down to 
Point Calimere, which is the southern point of Madras. Now 1 will 
ask Sir James Elphinstone to address the meeting. 

Sir James Elphinstone. — Ladies and Gentlemen : The remarks I 
shall address to you will not be in the form of a paper, because I am 
quite unaccustomed to draw up any such formal document j but I will 
touch upon the general points with regard to this undertaking, which I 
have had in view for a great many years. It was first brought to my 
notice in Ceylon, when I went out to India in the year 1842, for the 
purpose of sport and travel over the southern part of India, having pre- 
viously, for many years, been in the East India Company's service, and 
having commanded one of their ships, so that I am pretty well acquainted 
with the coasts of India. 

In 1838, Mr. Stewart Mackenzie, then Governor of Ceylon, in con- 
sequence of the development of those coffee speculations which have 
turned out so advantageously in that country, found that a supply of rice 
from Tanjore was difficult to be obtained, in consequence of the obstruc- 
tion of the Paumben Channel, and I think it was in 1838 that Sir 
Arthur Cotton met Captain Dawson, one of the best engineers, I 

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suppose, there ever was in the East — one of the Duke of Wellington's 
most favourite men in that branch of the profession — who went out to 
Ceylon with Sir Edward Barnes, and constructed the Candy-road and 
other great works which have made Ceylon one of the first colonies 
under the Crown. Sir Arthur Cotton was sent down by the Madras 
Government to meet Captain Dawson, the result of which was that they 
cleared out the channel, which then only had seven feet of water in it, 
and through which annually some 17,000 tons of freight were carried. 
That was cleared out to ten feet, at an expense of about 13,000?.; and 
from that time to this the trade has increased in the most marvellous 
degree, and the whole of the rice which is consumed in the Island of 
Ceylon and other commodities is now brought down through the 
Paumben Channel, and last year there were not less than 86,000 
passengers who came down in that direction. The channel is named 
the Paumben Channel in consequence of its being' in a crooked form. 
"Paumben" is the Tamil name for a snake, and the present channel would 
be inapplicable to the ships of the present time, because no long ship, as 
many gentlemen present can understand, can easily get through a crooked 
channel, especially if the current runs in any way across the channel, as 
it does in this case. The only two places in the Suez Canal at all 
dangerous to ships are where there is a slight curve. 1 shall come 
to that presently. 

Now, Sir, here is the line of rocks and shoals which is called Adam's 
Bridge, and this is the Island of Manaar which belongs to the colony of 
Ceylon. The Ceylon territory ends at this point. [Pointing to the map.] 
From there there is a line of rocks and shoals extending for about 
twenty-five miles to the Island of Rameseram, which, tis your Chairman 
has Just told you, is one of the most holy places in India, according to 
the^^eligion of the natives, and where there is a most beautiful and large 
temple. Bameseram is in the Madras Presidency. It is divided from 
the Province of Madura by a naiTow strait about a mile long. There is 
a row of rocks or boulders exactly like stepping-stones, which are 
supposed to have been the means by which Adam got across to the 
Island of Ceylon ; but they lie at a height of about eight feet out of 
the water, and I believe they are sandstone. I believed they were the 
en'atic glacial boulders which exist over the South of India, and in 
such numbers over the whole Island of Ceylon ; but I found that they 
were of sandstone formation, and that they were quite flat at the top. 
Those extended across to the Island of Bameseram. By lifting a few of 
those stones and blowing up others a passage was immediately effected, 
and the current, which generally turned down through Palk's Straits, 
kept the channel perfectly clear, but it is a crooked channel. I should 
first explain that along the whole of this coast from Tuticorin^ the 

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whole coast is faced by a line of islands connected by sandbanks. The 
surf breaks upon the outer part of these, and inside there is a smooth 
water channel, which I have navigated in a native vessel, by which you 
sail, as it would appear, in a lake with the islands outside of you, and 
the mainland inside of you. You sail up there and through the Paumben 

What is proposed now to be done is to cut, for 250 yards, through the 
sandbank here, which gives access to a harbour of sixteen square miles 
of anchoring water, of from twenty-four to thirty-six feet, perfectly 
smooth and land-locked ; and then to cut a channel through this point 
[pointing to the map], the Point of Tonitory, in the district of Madura, 
which gives you immediate access to Palk*s Straits. According to the 
calculations I have received the expense would amount to something like 
90,000/., and it could be kept clear at a comparatively small amount. 
•The benefit of that would be that ships coaling there would either coal 
in the canal or coal at jetties .outside, but the harbour would be as 
smooth as a mill-pond at all times. 

Now, Gentlemen, that leads me to the physical geography of the Gulf 
of Manaar. Some twenty years ago, when the cotton districts of 
Tinnivelly became very productive, the cotton began to be shipped at 
the harbour of Tuticorin, which is a wild, open roadstead, where ships 
cannot come within five miles of the shore, and where cotton is shipped 
with considerable diflSculty ; but nevertheless there were 117,000 bales 
of cotton shipped there, and the trade is increasing annually. The 
Government of India are bringing a railway down from Madura, which 
lies forty miles from here to Tuticorin. A branch from that would bring 
the whole of the cotton to this little harbour. 

Now we come to the physical geography of the Gulf of Manaar and 
of Palk's Straits, which is a very important point in this question. Here 
is Cape Comorin, and from Cape Comorin up the Malabar coast there 
is a range of mountains, ending in sharp, isolated peaks near Cape 
Comorin. On the mainland of Ceylon lies another range of mountains, 
the mountains in Ceylon rising to something like 8,000 feet, and the 
mountains in the Travancore district to something like 6,000 feet. There 
is the south-western monsoon, as you are aware, in this direction, which 
blows strongly into the Gulf of Manaar; but when it has got into the 
Gulf of Manaar it deflects in each direction, and precipitates its rains 
most severely upon the mountains of Sassagan, in the Island of Ceylon, 
in one direction, while the other is carried up over Cape Comorin, and 
the rain falls upon the mountains of Travancore, so that when you have 
a fall of something like 120 inches here [pointing to the map], and pro- 
bably of 200 here in the Island of Ceylon, you have here a rainless 

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regron"; — ^you have at Gape Comorin and along this coast a rainless region. 
At Jaffna, and all along here, there is very little rain as far as Chilaw ; 
then the rain breaks upon it there, and breaks upon it here. [Pointing to 
the map.] The consequence is that the navigation of the Gulf of 
Manaar, so far from being a dangerous navigation, is a navigation of 
land and sea breezes; the swell from the Southern Ocean coming up from 
the south-western monsoon breaks upon the surf along this range of 
islands here, but there is no wind — or very little wind. In Palk's Strait 
it is the same. Palk's Bay — which was called Palk's Bay after a Dutch 
Governor of Ceylon of that name — is practically a lake. There is a pas- 
sage in here around Point Calimere of six or seven miles wide into Palk*s 
Bay, with no danger except the two and a half fathom patch here. There 
is a line of shoal across here which forms a complete breakwater, and the 
consequence is, that when you sail into Palk's Bay you sail practically 
into a lake. The soundings are perfectly regular the whole way acros»; 
the current runs to the Routhward and runs pretty strongly through 
here, but it is not charged with sand or detritus of any description, and 
the alteration of the banks since 1838, since the time that they have been 
observed, has not been very great. With regard to the saving in dis- 
tance, we take a common point in the eight-degree channel, between the 
Maidive and the Laccadive Islands. In the centre of that channel is the 
Tslgind of Meddicoy, which is commonly made by ships bound to the 
coast of Ceylon from Aden. Taking the distance from that point here, 
and Caripal, which is the common point where a ship coming round 
would meet a ship coming from the other direction, the distance is 360 
miles in favour of the Paumben Channel, instead of going round by the 
southern end of Ceylon. 

In considering the question in reference to the Suez Canal, which 
is the real ground upon which I am now bringing the matter before 
this meeting, we must take into consideration that the whole of our 
East Indian trade has probably been revolutionised by the opening of 
the Suez Canal. The ships in which we placed so much pride, and in 
which so many of us have spent so many years of our life, and look back 
to with such satisfaction and pride, are improved off" the face of the 
earth. Trade with India, whether right or wrong, must fall into steam 
trade. (Hear, hear.) Within the course of the next three or four years, 
you will see a class of ships built expressly for the purpose of carrying 
on that trade. (Hear, hear.) The high and low pressure boiler has so 
completely revolutionised the expense of navigation that you can now, 
I am told, navigate a ship on equal terms either by sails or steam. 
But, setting that aside altogether, even if the difference was greater, it 
is absolutely certain that the whole trade to India must become a steam 

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trade. Under these circumstances, when you consider that - by this 
work, which really is nothing more than a bit of child's play, when you 
consider works of the sauie kind — when you consider that there will be a 
saving of 720 miles upon each voyage to Calcutta, Bombay, Madras, or 
wherever a ship may be going to — that is a very great point, because the 
saving of 720 miles in a voyage of that sort is something like 4 per cent, 
upon the time and upon the expense ; and where profits are so narrow as 
they are now-a-days, a saving of 4 per cent, cannot be said to be a very 
indifferent matter. 

But you must take into consideration, in looking at this question, 
that if you continue to circumnavigate Ceylon, you will have to consider 
what you are to do with the harbour of Galle. Now the harbour of 
Galle is one of the worst harbours I have ever been in. It is full of 
rocks ; it is exposed to the full swell of the Southern Ocean ; it is liable 
to rollers which set up at any time, without any warning, or without 
any apparent cause ; the probable cause of the rollers being something 
that has gone on hundreds and hundreds of miles away. All of a 
sudden you find the ships tossing about without any ostensible reason 
whatever. There is a great difficulty in coaling and anchoring, which 
is at present of very small extent, and the impossibility of increasing 
which, except at an enormous cost, has impressed itself so strongly upon 
the Government, that I am informed upon the very best authority they 
have entirely given up their intention of doing anything with the har- 
bour of Galle. That being the case, I think in the month of December 
something like forty ships went into the harbour of Galle in excess of 
the ordinary steam trade. The consequence was a very great difficulty 
in anchoring, and I am not at all sure — in fact, I think it is very likely 
— that if the harbour of Galle is over-pressed, there may be some very 
great disaster ; because in these rollers if one ship gets adrift and falls 
foul of another, she may get adrift also, and the consequences may be 
very disastrous. But that you have the means of entirely obviating by 
adopting this channel. The cost of the improvement of Galle harbour, 
which was to be spread over a number of years, was something like half 
a million of money; and it is my belief, looking at Alderney and Port- 
land, and the experience which we have in this country in moving in 
deep-water harbour works, that probably a million or a million and a 
half of money would not have been sufficient to have produced the 
results desired at Galle, and that not under a very considerable number 
of years, while it would be perfectly easy in a very few months to carry 
out what is necessary here. 

Now, Sir, there were various objections raised in the Committee 
over which I had the honour to preside in 1862, the report of which I 

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have before me ; but they were all of such a frivolous and puerile cha- 
racter, that I will not at this moment detain the meeting by alluding 
to them. I am not surprised that objections were raised, because at the 
time that Tuticorin was first adopted as a cotton port there was no 
insurance office at Bombay, or in India, that would insure a ship going 
into the Gulf of Manaar. At that time there was a supposititious line 
drawn across here (from Cape Comorin to Colombo), and anybody going 
inside of it was supposed to go into a place so completely beset with 
rocks and shoals, that no insurance could cover him. That is a fact, 
and I remember the difficulty. In 1835 or 1836, a survey was sent 
there, under Captain Ethersey and Captain Powell, to investigate these 
dangers, and the danger turned out to be nil. The first person who 
directed my attention to bringing this matter forward was Captain 
Ethersey, who surveyed it, and whose chart is now before you. I met 
him going home from Bombay in 1844, and we went up the Nile 
together, and had a great deal of conversation upon that and other 
matters. It was not my good fortune to get into Parliament until some 
two years afterwards, but as soon as I did, one of the first things I did 
was to apply myself to this matter, and endeavour, if possible, to per- 
suade the Government to deepen the channel to 26 feet, which was 
perfectly easy. At that time the size or length of our ships was nothing 
like what it is now, and the old channel might have done; but the 
crooked nature of the old channel, as I mentioned before, was such that 
it is absolutely necessary now to turn to some other point, if the thing 
is to be done, and to get a straight cut right through, as the dangers, as 
I explained, of a crooked channel are very great. It is quite impossible 
for any private individual to force a matter of this sort upon the Go- 
vernment ; and it is a very extraordinary thing, but when the East 
India Company ceased, and the Government of India was adopted by the 
Crown, the first thing they did was to give up their marine establish- 
ments and the whole management of the harbours in India, and the 
service was committed to the Admiralty. The Admiralty, since that 
time, have done purely nothing whatever, and the consequence is, that 
this matter has remained in abeyance till this time. And, therefore, 
what I should propose here is,, seeing my friend. Sir Thomas Bazley, 
here, and other gentlemen who are very much interested in this matter, 
that they should interest the Chambers of Commerce in England in this 
question. All I can do is simply — as a sailor, who has happened to have 
been there and seen the place myself, which very few people have seen 
— to testify that, as far as my knowledge goes, there is no nautical 
difficulty ; and my friend. Sir Arthur Cotton, will tell you that 
there is no engineering difficulty. I will just before I sit down — 

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after making that siiggestion, that this matter should be sent up to 
the Chambers of Commerce in England — I will read you a para- 
graph from a letter which I received from Captain Donnan, the 
Master Attendant at Colombo, who I believe at this moment knows 
more of the navigation of these Palk*s Straits and the Paumben Channel 
than any man alive ; because he commanded the colonial steamer Pearl 
for three years, and during that time he not only had to look after the 
Pearl, but had to make twelve journeys ^y^ry year to carry the Chief 
Justice on his trips, so that he was perfectly aware of the circumstances. 
On the 31st October last year, he writes to me ; "The publication of the 
proceedings of the Parliamentary Committee of Inquiry into this 
matter, of which you were chairman at the time when I commanded the 
.Ceylon Government steamer Pearl, and frequently passed through 
Paumben in voyages round Ceylon, first brought the subject prominently 
to my notice, and ever since that time I have paid particular attention 
to the various objections that have been raised as to the difficulties and 
dangers vessels would have to contend with in adopting that route, and 
1 must confess I never met with any of them. My own experience, 
which extended over three years' navigation of the Gulf of Manaar and 
Palk Straits, only led me to the conclusion that there is no easier or 
safer navigation to be found anywhere in the world; and I believe that 
my experience will be borne out by the fact that although a number of 
native craft are constantly passing through these seas, accidents very 
seldom occur to any of them." In reference to that, I may state that 
2,200 vessels passed through Paumben Channel last year, and only two 
vessels were lost, and that 89,000 passengers came down in those ships. 
The rice trade amounted to some 1,700,000^. in value, and those are all 
carried in vessels with a draught of water of under ten feet. Now only 
suppose what the tonnage would be — the tonnage last year was 
220,000 tons. I have a report before me of the harbour of Kurrachee, 
upon which the Government of India have agreed to spend 300,000^. 
Now I think it is straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel when they 
lay out 300,000?. at Kurrachee, which no doubt is a most important 
place, but will not spend one shilling upon Paumben. The trade of 
Kurrachee last year was 111,798 tons, and that in large vessels ; the 
trade of Paumben was 220,000 tons. Now by all means the more the 
Government of India lay out in harbour works the better I should like 
them ; but T think that we are seeing a great change which is likely to 
take place, and which has taken place in part, in fact, in the trade of 
India. I think that if the commercial bodies of this country would take * 
this matter up, the Government might be pressed in such a manner as 
to expend the very small sum of money which will be necessary to afford 

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an amount of improvement and- a facility to the commerce of England 
which I do not think will be rightly appreciated until it is carried out. 

Mr, William Tayler proposed that on the present occasion the 
limitation of ten minutes should not be enforced in regard to those 
speakers who were practically acquainted with the subjects under dis- 

The proposal was adopted by the meeting. 

Sir Arthur Cotton. — I shall take the liberty of speaking upon this 
subject a little at length, because it is my own first child. He is fifty 
years old now, and he has not yet quite come to years of discretion j but 
I can assure you it is a very promising boy. Still it is almost exactly fifty 
years ago since I was sent for my first duty to examine and report upon 
the Paumben Pass. They had a queer way of doing things in those days, 
as they have now. They sent a boy who knew nothing about either 
land or sea to report upon the Paumben Pass. However, that brought 
the matter befor<3 me, and it has been repeatedly, at intervals, before my 
mind from that time to this. I have been sent down by Government 
five or six times to the place at difierent periods. In 1852 I was sent 
there and ordered to report upon it. There was then a very narrow, 
winding passage, four and a half feet deep, and it took sometimes three 
or four days for a douey (a flat coasting vessel) to pass through. She 
had to unload on one side, and tranship her cargo into boats and pass 
through. Sometimes she would have out five warps in order to get 
through the bends in the channel. The whole coast trade was confined 
in that way, on account of this channel, to vessels of this class, which 
could not work to windward, and one of the consequences was that they 
were constantly blown ofi* the coast and the crew left to starve in the 
Bay of Bengal, being utterly unable to fetch up again. Many vessels 
were lost in that way. In the year 1828 the tonnage was 17,000 tons a- 
year. I will just mention these facts to show what the efiect of these 
miserable petty improvements, that twenty yeara later made, has been. 
In 1849 it had increased from 17,000 to 140,000, and from 1849 to the 
present time (twenty years more) it had increased to 220,000, about 
fourteen times what it was when we began. I may just mention one 
point which is a constant stumbling-block about these improvements in 
transit. People calculate what they ought to do by the present traffic. 
There is no connection whatever between the present traffic upon any 
line and wha: there will be when facilities are given for it. It has 
nothing whatever to do with it. Suppose we had based our ideas of the 
improvement of the passage upon the 17,000 tons traffic there was then, 
and had taken no cognisance of what the effect of our improvements 
would have been — namely, raising it up to 220,000. In that time, during 

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these forty years, I reckon that 5,000,000 tons have passed through that 
passage. A few days ago, when this subject was discussed in the House, 
the Under-Secretary of State said : " If we make a new passage, we shall 
have thrown away all the money that we have spent." Now, in the 
first place, it is a very curious argument to use, that when we have made 
a mistake we must not correct it, for fear we should find out that we 
were wrong before. But in the next place is it nothing that we have 
facilitated the passage of 5,000,000 of tons through that passage for the 
most insignificant sum (I do not think the whole sum has been expended) 
of 40,000?. ? 

Sir James Elphinstone. — 36,000Z. is the whole outlay. 
Sir Arthur Cotton. — That is at the expense of about 1 Jd. per ton. 
And that money has been thrown away ! Now, I will just give you the 
history of these works. It is profitable to consider these things. I was 
sent out first in 1822, and then the Government took six years to con- 
sider of it. In 1828 I was sent back, with permission to spend 2001, or 
300?., and with twenty or thirty sappers to help me. With these we 
straightened the passage, or made it almost straight, and took aw^ay the 
great bends, and deepened the water to five or six feet. Then they con- 
sidered seven yeai-s more, and in 1839, by dint of sheer perseverance, 
General Menteith worried the Government till, for the sake of their own 
peace, they gave him the monstrous sum of 4:001, This was all that was 
spent for another seven years, and then in the year 1845 they had suc- 
ceeded in getting 9,000?. ; but by this time they had a straight, good, 
and safe passage of eight or nine feet of water. It was about this time 
that my friend behind me (General Collier) was called in, and one of the 
papers we now have to assist us in this matter was his valuable report 
made at the time. Now, I have looked at the plans that Sir James 
Elphinstone has obtained of this place. I may just mention that I 
urged at that time that, instead of improving the natural passage which 
there now is, they should cut through the point of land where there was 
tolerably deep water on each side, within about a mile or three-quartera 
of a mile of the present passage ; but I did not examine it further at that 
time. I am entirely satisfied with the plans and reports now produced 
by Sir James Elphinstone as to the proper place, that it should be made 
where there is deep water on both sides, and where a clear channel can 
be cut for vessels of any draught of water, by cutting through the land 
for a mile and a half, besides about half a mile on each side, which 
would require to be deepened. Upon the south side of this there is as 
fine a harbour, certiiinly the finest harbour that could be found in India, 
the most complete and the most unobjectionable. The estimate, which 
I have looked over, was 90,000^. I should mention that the substance 

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we have to cat through consists either of sand or of very soft sandstone 
or dead coral. The sandstone is in thin layers ; but there is no sign of 
any hard rock anywhere in that direction that I saw, and I am therefore 
persuaded that not the slightest difficulty will be found in cutting through 
it. The estimate provides for a channel 100 yards broad ; there is no object 
that I can see whatever in having a channel 100 yards broad. If 100,000 
tons passed through it, and the average tonnage of the vessels was 1,000 
tons, there would be 1,000 vessels a-year ; that is to say, 500 vessels each 
way, or about three in two days each way. Therefore they would very 
seldom meet indeed, the passage being only a mile and a half long, and if 
they did they would only have to wait about twenty minutes. I should 
therefore reduce the breadth, probably to 200 or 180 feet ; therefore the 
estimate is certainly more than sufficient. We must allow, certainly, in 
all such estimates, a sum for contingencies — the officer who estimated it 
allowed 15,000^. out of the 90,000?., but I think, on the whole, we 
could be perfectly safe in saying that the work could be executed for 
under 80,000?., it being done by an intelligent engineer. I do not mean 
to say that we may not spend any amount of money upon engineering 
work if we choose to do so — they ha^e spent 20,000?. a-mile upon a 
single line of railway from Calcutta to Delhi, with one tunnel a thousand 
yards long. Of course you may spend any amount of money in that 
way, but I am speaking of the work being done with ordinary intelli- 
gence and fairness. Now about the total traffic. The total traffic 
between Calcutta and Madras is 2,000,000 tons; out of this about 
three-fourths come to Europe and North America. That would be 
1,500,000 tons. The whole of that traffic ought to go through this 
passage, therefore the present traffic would allow for 1,500,000 tons 
through this passage. A considerable part of this goes round the Cape 
at present, but it will be rapidly transferred to the Suez line, that is 
certain. But that is the present traffic. What the traffic is going to be 
now the Suez Canal is opened it is impossible to calculate ; it will de- 
velop in a most astonishing way, that I am sure of. Then the pre- 
sent little petty coasting traffic is 200,000 tons, and adding that to the 
traffic from Calcutta and Madras would make it 1,700,000. If we 
allow for present traffic, and take 80,000?. as the cost of the work, the 
actual expense per ton, allowing seven per cent, upon the capital — that 
is to say, for the cost of management — will come to about lid. per ton, 
that is to say, a toll of 1 Jd. a-ton, would cover the expense of the vessels 
making use of it. The distance saved is 360 miles, which, at the lowest 
estimate, is equivalent to Is. a-ton, so that the vessel, on paying a toll of 
l^d., would save Is. a-ton. I just state these things to give some idea 
of what the nature of the case is, because, you see, lookin.^ at that speech 

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that I was speaking^ of in the House of Commons, the other day, upon this 
subject, there was not a single tangible point in it. Nobody could have 
made out from the speech whether 100,000 or 1,000,000 or 2,000,000 tons 
would make use of it ; whether the saving would be a shilling or a 
farthing a-ton. Nobody could say what was the basis of the argument 
that was used. Now France has most gallantly made us a present of 
the Suez Canal. What a shame it is to England 1 — really sometimes I 
wonder how Englishmen can look one another in the face when they 
think of that Suez Canal. Only think of almost every man in England 
having opposed that work ! France comes with an immense sum of 
money and executes this magnificent work for our benefit — that work 
which connects the two halves, the black and the white half, of the 
British Empire together — executed by a foreign country, and all of us 
not only standing still, but writing everything that could be imagined 
against it in every newspaper in England. Surely after this we might 
at least cut through a mile and a half of land to complete the communi- 
cation with Calcutta, at an expense of 90,000/., when France has spent 
18,000,000/. for us ! So with respect to another work with reference to 
the completion of the communication between London and Calcutta, I 
understand the French are now talking of making us another present — 
it is certainly under discussion ; I do not know how far it has been 
carried at present — that is, to complete the Burgundy Canal from the 
Bay of Biscay to the Gulf of Lyons for a ship canal, and thus save us 
800 miles more to Calcutta. They talk of doing that, and very likely 
they will do it, and we shall be great gainers by it. Now, what an 
insignificant thing it is for England to spend 80,000/. or 90,000/. upon 
this line in order to help forward the communication between London 
and Calcutta. I may just mention, with respect to the money being 
thrown away upon these Straits, that the money actually paid in tolls 
to the Government is 34,000/. — exactly the sum that they have cost the 
Government ; so that the Government have not laid out a farthing to 
this day upon this Paumben Straits. I may also just mention that, 
with the assistance of this canal, I reckon that the distance from London 
to Calcutta will be 7,700 miles ; and I am informed that they now find 
that, except for very long lines, the ordinary speed for large steamers at 
eea is 10 miles an hour, or 240 a-day ; and at that rate, therefore, the 
time from London to Calcutta would be 32 days for ordinary steam 
traffic — about the same, or rather under, the speed at which the mails 
are carried by the Peninsular and Oriental Company, with a subsidy of 
half a million. Now, in connection with that subject, I would just 
mention that what I would propose is, that the Secretary of State should 
be earnestly pressed to appoint a Committee, with Sir James Elphinstone 

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at the head of it — I am quite sure we could not find a man more fitted 
for it — to report upon the line of communication between London and 
Ca-cutta, and lay before the Government an estimate, and to do what- 
ever could be done to facilitate the communication, which has now 
become of such commercial importance to this country. It really seems 
a shame that all this fuss should have to be made about such an insig- 
nificant sum as this 80,000^. or 90,000^. for England to lay out to con- 
nect Calcutta and London. There is no comparison in the world 
between the value of the thing and the cost of it. As I said, it certainly 
would not amount to above 1 Jd. a-ton for vessels making use of it at j)re- 
sent, and in a very few yeai's that will be reduced to a half or one-third of 
that sum. I do not think there is any other point that I can speak to. 
I have been rather diffuse upon it ; but it has really been such a child 
of mine all my life, having been the very first thing I had my attention 
called to, that I trust you will excuse my dilating upon it at such length. 
(Hear, hear.) 

Mr. Robert Carlyle. — If the meeting would allow me, as a stranger, 
to make a suggestion, I would suggest that, if the Government will not 
pay the money, they should grant a toll to those who will make it, and 
I think there is quite enough enterprise in this country to effect it. 

Chairman. — That is a very good suggestion, but I really think it 
is the duty of the Government itself to do it. 

Mr. Robert Carlyle. —So it is ; but my suggestion gives them the 
alternative. If you will not do it, do not be a dog in the manger. I 
may say that my firm are building a large line of steamers to pass 
through the canal, and we mean to make use of that place ; and if the 
Government say they will not make it, and they will only tell us that, 
I will find people who will make the canal, if they will allow us to take 
sixpenny toll for passing through it, and that is four times what it would 
cost us to make it. 

Mr. J. B. Smith, M.P. — I had the honour of serving upon the 
Committee of which Sir James Elphinstone was the Chairman upon the 
passage of Adam's Bridge, and certainly the evidence was such that the 
marvel is that the Government could refrain from making this small 
outlay. Now, supposing it cost 100,000?., I have contended over and 
over again in the House of Commons that the Government may execute 
works of this kind without their costing them one farthing, and I have 
instanced the case ref)eatedly of the Ohio River, in America, where there 
is a ridge of rocks which necessitated the stoppage of the steamer when 
it got to a certain point, and of carrying the produce and the freight of 
the steamer round the rocks to reload them on the other side. The State 
of Ohio saw that that was a great inconvenience. They had it surveyed. 

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and determined to make a canal round the rocks. That canal was made. 
The State borrowed the money and made use of their credit, and it did 
not cost them one farthing, as the tolls xkjtffn. the canal were sufficient 
to pay principal and interest upon the whole money. The traffic was 
increased so enormously by this convenience that it was soon found that 
the canal was too small, and theti they set to work to enlarge it, and 
borrowed money for the purpose of enlarging this canal, and making it 
so large that now steamers of the largest size can pass through the canal 
and the tolls have been sufficient to pay the debt off again. I say, if 
America can do it, why cannot India do it ; and my belief is that if the 
Government are disposed to enter into this work and borrow 100,000?. 
to do so, the tolls would be sufficient to pay off both principal and in- 
terest, and by and by ships might go by for a mere nominal toll, just 
sufficient to keep the canal in repair. I hope Sir James Elphinstone will 
press upon the Government these facts, and the importance of making 
these facts known. When we sat upon Committee to consider this 
question, the Suez Canal was not contemplated, nobody thought of 
making it ; but since that time the Suez Canal has been made, and 
this therefore renders it far more valuable than it was before. I should 
be veiy happy to join in any representations to Government, and I hope 
that Sir James Elphinstone, having taken up this matter with great 
spirit for so many years, will not let it drop and remain in its present 

Captain Taylor. — I was examined by the Parliamentary Committee 
upon this question of the Faumben Channel, and the inference that I 
drew from the report was simply that it was not much use deepening 
the old channel, and that the locality selected for a new deep channel, 
through the Island of Rameseram, was not quite the right thing. But 
the place which Sir James Elphinstone has spoken of this evening seems 
to my mind neai'er the mark. Only the same may be said now as had 
to be said then, that we have not sufficient recorded information of the 
depth of water on the old charts. I endeavoured to bring before the 
Parliamentary Committee that the most important thing, in the first 
instance, was a thorough survey of the locality, but nothing came of the 
suggestion, and the report seems to have shared the fate of the old 
Indian Navy — they were both put upon the shelf together about nine 
years ago, and have been there ever since. I have looked into the case 
a good deal myself, and I feel persuaded that somewhere in the locality 
pointed out by Sir James Elphinstone is the very place for a harbour, 
upon the south side ; and that there is no great impediment upon the 
north side of Ramnald Promontory — ^that North Bay is simply like the 
Bay of Pelusium, and we may expect nothing worse in Ramnstd North 
Part 3.— Vol. V. i. 

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Bay ihan in the Bay of Pelusium. With regard to the present Paumben 
Passage, my impression is that it cannot be deepened to 15 feet ; for if 
they deepened the Horse-shee Channel to that extent, it would be 
simply like counter-sinking a hole there, because the water outside is 
much shoaler, only 12 or 13ft. Tlien that other proposed cutting 
through Rameseram, which was spoken of before the Parliamentary 
Committee of the House of Commons, had this objection, that the south 
entrance of it opened right out into the Gulf of Manaar and dead in the 
teeth of the south-west monsoon. I thought that was a great objection. 
But the third proposition, brought forwai*d this evening by Sir James 
Elphinstone, was not mentioned then, and now seems to me to invite 
the attention of all parties. Before I sit down the only thing to be said 
is this — I do not think we want another inquiry. "What is wanted is 
simply to examine the place. There has been inquiry enough, in my 
mind, but action certainly is wanted. I might say that the Government 
do not seek to spend much upon the present Paumben Passage. We 
have heard of the small sums that were spent in former days, and in the 
years 1869 and 1870 the outlay was 200^., in endeavouring to deepen 
the channel to 14 feet, but it silts up again. 

Sir John Hay. — I am very anxious to keep well within the ten 
minutes, but I wish to say that I had the honour of serving on that Com- 
mittee of the House of Commons of which Sir James Elphinstone was 
Chairman, and of which my honourable friend on my left was also a 
member. I have heard the speech of the honourable and gallant gentle- 
man who has just spoken with very great pleasure, because there was a 
unanimity among the witnesses before that Committee for the necessity 
of the opening of this communication, I think, of a very singular 
character; and the only strong evidence, if I may so call it, that appeared 
to go against it, and which came with very great weight from an officer 
of the Indian Navy, was the evidence of Captain Taylor, who has just 
addressed the meeting; and we have now the advantage of hearing from 
him that the objections which he took, and fairly took, with regard to 
the proposals which were at that time before the Committee for deepen- 
ing the original Paumben Pass, or for cutting through Bameseram, are 
now obviated entirely by the fresh proposition now before the meeting 
of the ship canal proposed to be cut through this point in the Madras 
territory ; and we have the highest authority, as I may justly call it, in 
Indian matters of Sir Arthur Cotton, who has explained to the meeting 
the points of the case. When we find the great objector, Captain Taylor, 
and the great advocator. Sir Arthur Cotton, agreeing upon this point, aa 
being the point which is desired, there is nothing further that can be 
desired for you m the chair than to accept the evidence which has been 

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given, and to take, I migLt almost say, the sense of the meeting ds to 
the necessity of the work put before us by Sir James Elphin^tone. Sir 
Arthur Cotton has kindly gone into a gi'eat many details as to the saving 
of expense, but I think the saving of expense might be put at a much 
less figure than he has put it at. I think Is. for 360 miles each way, 
steaming, would hardly cover the coal expenditure in the winds and seas 
which are experienced in that locality. I think the saving might be 
looked upon as being very much more than the 4Jd. a-ton, which has 
been mentioned by Sir Aiiihur Cotton, although that is very consider- 
able, and I think I might almost ask him to concede to me that even a 
greater saving might possibly be expected. There are various ways, I 
imagine, in which money might be obtained. At this present moment a 
very great national undertaking is being completed in these seas by means 
of money advanced in this country by the Public Works Loan Com- 
missioners for great undertakings. I allude to the lighthouse which is 
now being erected upon the Basses, which are dangerous rocks upon the 
East coast of Ceylon. I am myself a Public Works Loan Commissioner, 
and I know that money, 70,000?. or 80,000?., was advanced for the 
purpose of building that lighthouse, by arrangements which are perfectly 
familiar to all those who obtain money for public works from that 
channel. The only question which it seems, perhaps, might be raised — 
unless, perhaps, as Mr. Carlyle suggested, it might be done by private 
enterprise — would be as to which Government, the Government of Ceylon 
or the Madras Government, should be at first responsible. It is quite 
clear that whichever is at first responsible would very soon be recouped ; 
but I think the financial difficulty might be got over by the Government 
of India. The Government of India, being a richer Government than 
the Government of Ceylon, might easily undertake the necessary security 
by which the money might be advanced, and this great and important 
work, both to Europe and to America and to India, might be at once 
completed. It is discreditable to this country, as I have already pointed 
out, that France should have completed the Suez Canal in spite of all 
the opposition thrown upon it ; but it would be doubly discreditable if 
we should hesitate to expend this paltry sum of money upon this under- 
taking, when it must be the desire of every one to complete the commu- 
nication between this country and India, and to develop our wealth and 
power in the East. 

Mr. Tayler, after adverting to the ancient Hindoo tradition of Rama 
and the monkey Hunooman, who made a bridge of trees and rocks 
between Ceylon and the continent, then said : What is this plan now 
before us ? — a trifling expenditure of 90,000?. to convert a dangerous, 
difficult, and expensive channel of communication into one that will be 

E 2 

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safe and commodious ; a work productive of the greatest possible ad- 
vantage to the rising commerce of the world. When we compare this 
with the work of the energetic Hunooman 1 think we ought to take very- 
great shame to ourselves that we have so far degenerated from those 
whom it is the fashion among some philosophers of the present day to 
consider as our progenitors — the monkeys. But, passing from those 
times of fable, I would submit to you, Sir, the extremely satisfactory 
nature of the present short discussion. Here we have laid before us by 
Sir James Elphinstone, upon the strength of his personal experience and 
great ability, confirmed and strengthened by Sir Arthur Cotton, who, I 
may safely say, is the greatest living authority at present upon such 
matters — more particularly when speaking with regard to what he terms 
his own child — a plan to which nobody has ventured to raise any 
objection whatever. Engineering diflSculty, by common consent, there 
is none ; financial difficulty we ought to be ashamed even to allude to. 
The advantages are admitted by all to be great. In place of a harbour 
like Galle, where we have rollers and rocks, both stomachic and material, 
to the discomfort of the passengers, we are promised a safe harbour. 360 
miles will be saved to every ship going and coming from Calcutta, 
amounting to 720 miles in each voyage to and fro. The expense, as I 
said, is a trifle. What is there to prevent this great scheme being carried 
out ? What is the ground, what are the arguments of the opposition ? 
Captain Taylor's opposition has most auspiciously been converted 
into support. We have, therefore, only to look to the opposi- 
tion which was raised in the House of Commons by Mr. Grant 
Duff: This, which has been very delicately referred to by Sir 
James Elphinstone himself, is really too trifling a thing to deserve 
much consideration. But I would draw the attention of all present 
to the character of Mr. Grant Duff''s arguments, because we may 
safely say that a gentleman of the great ability of Mr. Grant Duff*, being 
opposed to the scheme, would undoubtedly bring forward, when it was 
brought before the Government, the most powerful and convincing argu- 
ments he could adduce against it. What, then, has been said 1 Upon 
reading his speech, I observe two facts stated: one is, that this new 
passage would not answer for ships of war. Why ? Because the ships 
of war now use the harbour of Trincomalee ! That is very much like 
saying, as an old hackney-coachman might have done forty years ago, 
" I do not want a railway, because I have got a hackney-coach." We 
use the harbour of Trincomalee, and, therefore, we do not care to have a 
better channel. Now, this appears to me one of those puerile argu- 
ments which are set up at the moment for the sake of supporting the 
opposition, and which is really not worth refuting. The next point is, 

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that if we use this easily-constructed channel, the plan of which lies 
before us, with its prospects of great commercial improvement — ^if we do 
take advantage of it, and spend this little paltry sum of 90,000^. to 
secure it, we shall be throwing away all we have done in dredging out 
some other little dirty channel. It is really almost too absurd to call 
such a reason an argument. How Mr. Grant Duff, standing up in the 
House of Parliament, and in the presence of a large assemblage of intel- 
ligent English gentlemen, could use such an argument as that, I cannot 
conceive. It amounts to this, that there is to be no progress in this 
world whatever ; that if I have been treated by a quack doctor, and 
spent 20^. in paying him for killing me, I am not, when I have the 
opportunity of procuring the assistance of an able physician, to spend 
201. more in emplo;^ing him to cure me, because the first 201. would be 
thrown away. Without dwelling more, then. Sir, on these feeble argu- 
ments; I would observe that we have a scheme proposed, which it is 
shown will be of the utmost advantage to England and to India, with no 
opposition whatever worthy of a name. That is the position of the matter 
now before us. Under these circumstances, I would wish to propose a 
resolution. I am not sure whether the mles of this Society exactly con- 
template the proposing of a resolution without previous notice ; but if 
that matter of form were to be set aside, I would think it advisable that 
this discussion should not end as a mere empty debate, but that this 
Society should propose to take action, in the shape either of a deputa- 
tion or a petition presented to the Secretary of State, asking his aid to 
obtain the appointment, as has already been suggested, of a Committee 
to inquire into the subject, embracing probably the whole question of 
the communication between London and Calcutta, with a special re- 
ference to the proposal which has been now laid before us by Sii* James 

Mr. Trelawny Saunders.— Any one who will take the trouble to 
read Captain Taylor's former evidence, and to compare it with the 
remarks he has made this evening, will not see the difference, I beg to 
say, which has been attributed to it by the former speaker. Before the 
Parliamentary Committee, Captain Taylor's evidence was particularly 
directed to the Paumben Channel. From that day to this, the Govern* 
ment, although constantly maintaining dredging- vessels in -that channel, 
have never been able to deepen it to the extent of fifteen feet. Captain 
Taylor has told you this evening a very good reason why that cannot be 
done, and on that occasion he advocated what he has advocated this 
evening — the extension of surveys in Palk's Straits and in the Gulf of 
Manaar, as a preliminary to further operations. The surveys which 
have hitherto been carried on in these great inlets have been extremely 

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limited, confin^ to tbe narrow xnargiii of the coast ; so that while the 
old charts present us, in the centre of Palk's Straits in particular, with 
great patches of sandbanks, our recent surveys have never gone to the 
length of even an examination of those places where those patches were 
said to exist. In fact, we have only imperfect knowledge of the 
hjdrographic condition of Palk*s Straits and of the Gulf of Manaar. 
But we know that Palk's Strait, so far as our present knowledge goes, is 
not only greatly encumbered by sandbanks at its mouth, but that it has 
ai great spit of sand running out from a point which is visible upon that 
chart towards the north point of the Island of Ceylon, and another 
system of sandbanks running out at the entrance of the gulf. And we 
can easily understand that such is likely to be the case, for that strait is 
exposed to the violence of the north-east winds which prevail in the 
Gulf of Bengal for four months in the year. On the other hand, the 
Gulf of Manaar is exposed, to an extraordinary extent, to the influence 
of the south-west monsoons — so much so, that it is said the south-west 
monsoon blows with greater violence in the Gulf of Manaar than in any 
other part of India. And that may be well understood when you find 
it to be such a funnel as it is between the two opposite ranges of moun- 
tains ; so that I can hardly agree with Sir James Elphinstone in 
drawing that rose-coloured picture which he has done of the facilities of 
the Gulf of Manaar ; and I would say that, in the present state of our 
knowledge of the Gulf of Manaar, it is not strange that insurers should 
be rather loth to incur that risk. I do say that it is a disgrace to us 
that we have remained so long in such ignorance, especially as that 
ignorance has been so long exposed as it has been. I am not one of 
those who would attribute this fault altogether to the Government, 
either of India or of the Crown, when we find the merchants of 
England, who really are the dominant power in this country, so utterly 
negligent of their interests as to allow a question of this nature to 
remain in the condition that it has remained in. The Government of 
this country is not a despotic Government. It is not like that of the 
Czar of Russia, a Government which is expected to initiate everything. 
The Government of this country is not expected to initiate j but, as far 
as it goes, it is certainly in advance of our merchants. Here is a 
question of 90,000^., the expenditure of which is essential to the mer- 
cantile interest of the country, and yet we remain, to a great extent, in 
ignorance of the physical conditions under which it is to be expended. 
Now, instead of the Paumben Passage being advocated, as it was advo- 
cated under a former inquiry, the recommendation is that the passage 
sjiould be made further to the westward. It should be recollected that 
in the former times the passage of commerce between the Gulf of 

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Manaar luid Falk's Straits took place to the east of the Island of Manaar. 
It is now removed westward of the Island of Rameseram, and upon 
that large cfaarb you will find an indication engraved many years since 
of the very project now proposed to be carried out across the promontory 
of Kamn^d. There is, then, a general tendency to a movement of this 
passage to the westward, and I think it may be a fair question whether 
we have moved far enough west; and whether, considering that a 
straight passage is of such importance to our navigation, you have got 
by this movement far enough west to have deep water, a good harbour, 
and good entrance, at least at the southern extremity, for this entrance 
is proposed to be made at Vallinoocura Point. 

Sir James Elphinstone. — No, not at Vallinoocum Point — at Moosel 

Mr. Saunders. — It is very near Vallinoocum Point 

Sir Jambs Elphinstone. — Not within thirty miles. 

Mr. Saunders. — Now I think it is a fair question whether it should 
not be at or near Yallinoocum Point ; but I think, if you will examine 
the narrow passage through which it is proposed that this great increase 
of shipping should be passed before it gets to the canal, I think it is a 
fair question whether it would not be better to make the canal twenty 
miles in length through the low land that lies upon the coast, in prefer- 
ence to threading through the intricate channel, amongst sandbanks^ 
through which it is proposed to form the entrance to this shorter canal. 
i think it is quite a fair question whether it would not be better to 
nu»ke a longer canal through the mainland further to the west- 
ward, than it would be to carry your shipping through the intri- 
cate channel, beset with sandbanks, which is now proposed. This 
is certain, that if the movement is to take place it must be fol- 
lowed at least by better surveys ; by proper, suitable, adequate surveys 
of Palk's Strait and the Gulf of Manaar. And the question, therefore, 
is, whether it ia more fitting that these surveys should be made after you 
have entered upon this great expenditure, or whether they should be 
made before. In my opinion, any wise man entering upon such a sub- 
ject, seeing its importance, and determined to give the greatest facilities 
to commerce between the Red Sea and Madras, would naturally say. 
Let us take a broad view of this subject, and investigate its natural con- 
ditions fully, and see fully what we are about before incurring further 
expenditure in the matter. That is not so much a matter of inquiry as 
the very first step ,in the matter of action. The first act you make 
before you proceed to construct is to survey and lay out your plans. I 
say, Sir, the condition in which the nautical survey of India has been 
left for the last ten years — that is, since the responsibility of conducting 

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those surveys has been left to the Admiralty — ^is really disgraceful; and 
I beg to say that it is not more disgraceful to the Government of India 
or to the Government of Great Britain than it is disgraceful to 
the merchants of Great Britain — ^those directly interested in keeping 
up trade with India. They would seem to forget that. India is, 
next to China, the greatest labour market in the world ; and 
that it presents us Englishmen with an opportunity of bringing 
to bear upon our enterprise a population of 200,000,000. They 
seem to regard it as nothing but an outlet for the sale of our calico. 
Instead of being a mere outlet for the sale of our calico, it ought also to 
be an outlet for its own immense natural products, and one of the 
greatest feeders of our manufactories, which should return these raw pro- 
ducts of India to that country again in the form of manufactured goods. 
But our merchants appear to take no more prospective interest in what 
they are about than the mere question of the day imposes upon them. 
For example, within the last ten years there has been established in 
India a thorough system of steam coasting trade, and coasting steamers 
now run periodically at short intervals from Singapore all the way along 
the shores of India, and through the Persian Gulf, up to Bussorah, upon 
the River Tigris. But notwithstanding this fact, there is no regular and 
permanent system of survey upon this much-frequented shore; and 
therefore I deem it of the utmost importance that the subject of marine 
surveying in the Indian Ocean should be tlioroughly investigated, not 
only as relating to the Paumben Channel, but also with relation to other 
questions. Take, for instance, the case of the Orissa famine. The rice 
ships had difficulties in getting into Cbittagong for want of proper 
surveys ; and they had equal difficulty in getting into Cuttaxik for want 
of surveys of that port, so that the Government of India had to under- 
take local surveys on their own hook, in spite of the Admiralty having 
undertaken to do that work. Again, in Ceylon we have the port of 
Trincomalee, which in the event of war would be of the greatest im- 
portance to us ; but so little knowledge have we of that eastern coast of 
Ceylon, that we are actually persuaded by the best nautical books to 
avoid it, because we are so ignorant of it. I do say that such a condition 
of things is one of which we ought to be exceedingly ashamed, and none 
more so than the merchants of this countr3% 

Sir Thomas Bazley. — I will offer a very few remarks upon the 
occasion of our meeting this evening. My honourable friend. Sir James 
Elphinstone, having briefly alluded to me in his very lucid statement, I 
have very great pleasure in stating that so far as I can be useful id 
carrying out the hint he has given of increasing the communication 
between the Chambers of Commerce in this country and this Associa* 

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tioD, I will make myself useful. I tliink there is great value in that 
suggestion, because I believe that in the interior of our gi-eat country at 
home where we have very rapid communication upon all subjects, there 
is great ignorance upon this very question we are here to consider. 
I think in this room there is no difference of opinion as to 
the project under our consideration. I think, with the gentleman 
who has just spoken, it is a reproach to us that that communication 
has not been made. I deplore with Sir Arthur Cotton that the 
honour of the Suez Canal . has been entirely achieved by the French. 
I know that M. de Lessepa came to this country twenty-five 
years ago and obtained very little support, not only from the mer- 
cantile classes but from the Government. Lord Palm erst on denounced 
the project as unworthy of our consideration ; but that mighty project 
has been completed now between the Mediterranean and India. We 
have the industry of this great kingdom now in rapid communication 
with the great wealth of production in British India. I would say, 
with reference to some critical remarks which have been made by the 
last speaker, touching the conduct of British merchants, that I can assert, 
with considerable force and truth, that Justin proportion as India has had 
intercourse with British merchants, so India has increasingly prospered, 
and I hope that that intercourse will long be continued, and that, in what- 
ever sphere of action we may be moving, we shall each do our duty. Then 
there is the spirited remark of Mr. Carlyle, who said that if the Govern- 
ment will not do it, try the money market. 100,000?. appears to be a 
very small sum, and when we subdivide that by 100 persons, I think 
that 100 gentlemen could be easily found to subscribe 1,000^. each to 
make up the sum required. But it is not a question merely of this link 
of communication, which I regard as being indispensable, but it is the 
great question involved — how far this country, and the country of India 
in particular, shall be engaged in developing the resources of this great 
country by the aid of public works. There is no doubt the common 
carrier is the great leveller of traffic ; he takes from the district of 
plenty to the district of scarcity — he reduces extravagant prices, and 
carries plenty in his train. In the case of the famine in Orissa, there is 
no doubt but that plenty of rice could have been had to supply the starv- 
ing people, but the difficulty in India uniformly has been, that where hun- 
dreds of thousands have frequently starved for want of food, food in other 
parts of India has been abundant if it could only have been conveyed 
from those who had plenty to those who had none. I believe, myself, 
the principles of commerce embrace that great object of supplying the 
plenty where abundance exists to those parts of scarcity where necessity 
itf requiring what that euperabimdance can supply. I only hope, Sir 

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James Elphinstone, you will put yourself in cpmrnunication with the 
various Chambers of Commerce through this Indian Association, and 
that we shall be alje to stir up and call the attention of Government 
and the commercial communities to the duties that devolve upon each. 
If this Association could graphically describe the object that is required^ 
I would be happy to communicate myself with the Chambers of Com- 
merce of Lancashire, and I think I could put myself in communication 
with the representatives in the House of Commons of other Chambers of 
Commerce in the country, and I think it will not be found to have been 
in vain, if that course is deemed prudent to be pursued. I only hope that 
the efforts which are now being made will be crowned with success. I 
am glad to have attended so excellent a meeting, and I trust iJ:»at the atn 
tention of the English public will be called to India, and, I will add, 
to English ports. 

Mr. ZoRN. — I take the liberty to speak as one who has had some- 
thing to do with harbours of refuge. Four years ago in Malta I had 
entrusted to me the finishing of the harbour works, which no doubt a 
number of these gentlemen have seen. The Government advocated the 
large outlay which those works occasioned on the plea of the making of 
the Canal of Suez. They were taken in hand in 1861, and are not 
quite finished even now; but the total outlay will probably amount to 
360,000^. The chief argument of the Government was this — that from 
an imperial standpoint it was desirable to change a solid piece of land 
a mile and a half long and a mile in width into a harbour of twenty-five 
to thirty feet deep* The French Creek, which • was then used as the 
harbour for mercantile vessels, was claimed by the Government as in- 
dispensable for another dry dock, which had to be cut out of the solid 
rock. The work which was then to be done was done by the outlay of 
50,000^. upon Government plant alone ; and the contractors who were 
carrying out the work invested another 50,0007. in plant, and not 
merely was a harbour thus artificially created, but it was surrounded by 
a beautiful quay, built of square blocks. I do not know whether that 
was necessary for the purpose of giving an anchorage to vessels. The 
Admiralty seemed to have had a particular liking for excelling in that 
work, which now can be inspected by any one on his road from 
England to India, The price which was then paid for the dredg- 
ing (a little below 4d. a-ton) would, for the quantity of work 
which the canal proposed by Sir James Elphinstono would involve, 
amount to 354,000^. This is, however, a practical question which could 
be veiy easily and satisfactorily settled if tenders were invited for con- 
tractors willing to undertake the work, and sending out their own 
engineers to examine the plans, specifications, and estimates of the 

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Government engiheere, as is usually done, to satisfy themselves both as 
to the quality and quantity of the stuff that is to be removed. The 
trade that passes through Malta is certainly not, by a very great distance, 
to be compared with the trade that would pass through the proposed 
channel. Therefore, in vouching the Committee that has been proposed, 
I believe it would strengthen the claims of the proposed canal in a very 
great measure to keep in view the comparative expenditure already 
incurred for the same reason (that of increased traffic by steam between 
the Bed Sea and the Mediterranean). It was argued the Suez Canal 
would necessitate a greater accommodation of the harbour works in 
Malta. Well, if it has been found necessary to prepare (even before the 
canal was cut through Egypt) a harbour in the Mediterranean, at the 
only station we had on this side, it will be found equally necessary to do 
so upon the other side, where a much larger, amount of tonnage is not 
problematical, but certain already. 

Sir James Elphinstone. — I should like to say one or two words, in 
reply to Mr. Saunders' remarks. I think he cannot be aware that 
perhaps there is no part of India that has been so minutely surveyed as 
Palk's Bay and the Gulf of Manaar. After Captain Ethersey and 
Captain Powell's survey was completed, or nearly completed, it was 
afterwards re-surveyed by Mr. Franklin, who was Deputy Master 
Attendant at Madras. 

Mr. Saunders. — I beg your pardon. Mr. Franklin's work did not 
proceed over the same ground as the work of other men^ 

Sir James Elphinstone. — I was there at the time with Mr. Franklin^ 
and I have here a tracing of his work at half an inch to the mile, show- 
ing the proposed cutting through the Point of Tonitory, and also show- 
ing the course from that proposed cutting inside of the Moosel Island to 
the Point of Vallinoocum, which Mr. Saunders appears to be well 
acquainted with. I have been over that course in a native vessel ; in 
fact, I have been twice through the Paumben Pass and through Palk's 
Straits. It is impossible for a,nybody to state, I think, with any degi^ee 
of accuracy, that a sea which is navigated, in the course of the year, by 
2,200 vessels is not pretty well known. In fact, when I was in India 
last year, I communicated upon the subject with the native pilots, and 
with the native masters of those vessels; they know the whole place just 
as well as we know this street ; and Captain Donnan, who is Master 
Attendant at Colombo, who commanded the Pearl steamer there for 
three years, is perfectly and intimately acquainted with the whole place. 
The original surveys are all in the Government archives out there. I 
have now got a tracing before me of one of the most minute surveys 
that could possibly be. I was with Captain Franklin in 1844, when 

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he was surveying the Jaffna Channel, and he showed me the whole of 
his work. The lines of soundings were taken across and across the 
whole way. We know perfectly well about this bank ; it is a hard 
sandbank. All these banks are as well known as Fleet-street, and 
when I say that 2,200 passages were made through there last year, 
surely people must know pretty well the navigation of the sea ; and 
they completely maintain that these shoals which are marked 
in pencil upon these charts are more for the purpose of frightening 
people than anything else. They do not exist. I got the master 
of the vessel to keep his lead continually going all the way from 
Paumben up here to Delf, and right up to Fort Hamlyn, and 
we never shoaled under ten fathoms. I believe there is not a 
danger of any description, and I cannot possibly conceive why objec- 
tions should be put forward to a proposition which in every possible 
way commends itself so much to the interests of the country. After all, 
these objections can be very easily disposed of if any one can point out 
the position where there is a real danger, but I believe these dangers do 
not exist. I believe no part of India has been so well surveyed. I 
quite agree with the honourable gentleman that the eastern coast of 
Ceylon, is not so well known as it ought to have been. I have gone in a 
native vessel up^the eastern side also, and there are many dangers that 
are not very well laid down ; but the coast of Manaar has been very 
closely surveyed. I think I should recommend that the Chambers of 
Commerce in England, who are the parties most interested in this ques- 
tion, should combine in memorialising the Government, and the Govern- 
ment — having satisfied themselves, as they can very easily do by the 
reports of competent persons and master attendants upon the coast, suoh 
as that Master Attendant at Colombo and others — should advertise to see 
what the work could be done for. That would put them upon a prac- 
tical footing, and they could then make a comparison with other public 
works. We know in Ceylon what a cube yard of stuff* can be removed 
for, and in India it is perfectly well known too ; and having these 
tenders before them, they could very easily find the money for such a 
work. I am much obliged to the meeting for listening to me with such 

Chairman. — I think the meeting must now have made up it« mind. 
I began by stating to you that you were going to listen to a gentleman 
who had a most thorough practical acquaintance with this subject, and 
not to a mere theorist, and I think you will all agree with me that that 
is the case. I think the meeting are now prepared to adopt the child 
of Sir Arthur Cotton, or rather, I should say, the child for which Sir 
James Elphinstone and Sir Arthur Cotton are the sponsors. Mr. 

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Tayler has so well summed up everything that has been said, that he 
has left little or nothing for me to do. I will only make one remark, 
and that is with regard to the harbour at Trincomalee, which is no 
doubt a very fine harbour when you get into it ; but I believe it is very 
unhealthy, in consequence of a large swamp near it. But, at the point 
suggested by Sir James Elphinstone, you would be well supplied with 
provisions from the surrounding country, which is extremely populous. 
I think it would be quite unnecessary to enter into a new survey or 
new Committee inquiry. In this survey we have all the depths marked, 
and as to the Committee inquiry which we had ten years ago, they have 
not taken another step since. "We heard from Sir Arthur Cotton how 
the Government proceeded in the very beginning of this business — how it 
laid out 250^., and then went to sleep for six years, and then laid put 
400Z., and then went to sleep for another seven years. I think it would 
be very desirable to adopt the suggestion of my honourable friend, and 
to get the Associated Chambers of Commerce to take up this subject ; 
but, in the meantime, I think it is very desirable that there should be 
a deputation from the East India Association to the Secretary of State 
for India upon the subject. I would now ask the meeting whether it is 
not desirable that the Gulf of Manaar and Palk's Straits should be con- 
nected by thfe passage recommended by Sir James Elphinstone, and 
that Government should be pressed at once to adopt steps to carry out 
that scheme. It is not for me, as Chairman, to propose or second that, 
but if anybody will do it I should be glad. 

Mr. Tayler. — I beg to propose the following resolution, which is in 
substance what I had before suggested : " That, in the opinion of this 
meeting, it is desirable that the Gulf of Manaar and Palk's Straits 
should be connected by the passage recommended by Sir James Elphin- 
stone, and that the Government should be pressed at once to adopt 
steps to carry out that scheme." 

Seconded by Mr. Laurie, and carried unanimously. 

A vote of thanks to Sir James Elphinstone and the Chairman termi- 
nated the proceedings. 

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Ship Canal Between India and Ceylon, 


Wednesday, May 3, 1871. 

The deputation consisted of the following gentlemen : E. B. East- 
wick, Esq., C.B», M.P., Chairman of the Council of the Association; Sir 
Jas. Elphinstone, Bart., M.P. ; General Sir Arthur Cotton, K.C.B. ; 
Major-General C. E. Hill, R.E. ; George Noble Taylor, Esq. ; Lieut.- 
General Parr; J. B. Smith, Esq., M.P. ; Hugh Birley, Esq., M.P. for 
Manchester ; Colonel P. T. French ; Lieut.-Col. W. Nassau Lees ; 
Major Evans Bell ; Capt. W. C. Palmer ; Messrs. W. S. Fitzwilliam ; 
R. Vicars Boyle, C.S.I. ; W. Tayler; George Foggo; W. D. Fox, 
Andrew Cassels ; J. T. Prichard ; S. G. Grady ; Syed Ameer Ali ; 
Ardaseer Cowasjee ; A. Cursetjee ; A. C. Brice ; Thomas Briggs ; 
Robert Carlyle; K. G. Deshmukh ; William Duncan; J. A. Gibbons; 
Hafiz Ahmed Hassan ; Jaafar Hosen ; J. J. Gazdar ; Edward Knight ; 
J. S. Laurie ; Mahomed Hickmatula ; M. Mittra ; W. Maitland ; Mirza 
Peer Bukhsh ; W. T.' S. Cakes ; James Ouchterlony ; J. C. Parry ; 
T. C. Poonen; J. S. Price; Rakbal C. Roy; R. C. Saunders; C. J. 
Sharpley ; D. Sutherland ; P. M. Tait ; S. $. Tliakur ; James T. Wood ; 
the Dewan Kazi Shahabudin (Acting Hon. Secretary); and Mr. John 
T. Zorn, the Assistant Secretary. Mr. Grant Duff entered at the same 
time with his Grace, and a few gentlemen subsequently during the 
proceedings, which would also account for their not being mentioned by 

Mr. Eastwick introduced the deputation to his Grace, and observed 
that in doing so it was unnecessary for him to say more than a few words, 
as there were present Sir James Elphinstone, Sir Arthur Cotton, and 
other gentlemen who were perfectly and practically acquainted with the 
subject. He would only remind his Grace that a Committee of the 
House of Commons sat in 1862 to inquire into the question, and since 
then Sir James Elphinstone, who was Chairman of that Committee, had 
personally examined the locality, and had found a better line of com- 
munication between the Gulf of Manaar and the Palk's Straits than by 
the Paumben Passage. Sir James had then introduced the subject in 
the House of Commons, when there had been a short debate on it, and 
had subsequently addressed a crowded meeting of the East India 
Association. At that meeting there were a number of gentlemen 
present conversant with the question, and it was unanimously resolved 

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to hiemorialise his Grace on the subject. He would now call on Mr. 
Tayler to read the memorial adopted, 

Mr. William Tayler then read the following memorial, and on 
placing it in the hands of the Duke, said that there were so many- 
gentlemen present more competent than himself to enter upon the 
details of the scheme to which the memorial referred, that he would not 
trespass on his Grace's time by offering any observations of his own, but 
would merely wish to say on the part of the Association that they had 
considered it their duty to afford to the proposition all the aid and sup- 
port in their power, because, after the decision at their late meeting, 
the members present had unanimously arrived at the conclusion that the 
scheme was one which would confer great advantages on the commerce 
of Great Britain and India — that the engineering difficulty was nil, and 
the expenditure trifling : — 

My Lord Duke, — We, the members of the East ladia Association, have the 
honour to submit the following memorial to your Grace, in the assured belief that 
the importance of the subject wiU secure to it your Grace's careful consideration : — 
** On the 28th ult., Sir James Elphinstone made a statement before the East 
India Association setting forth the details of a plan for cutting a channel through 
a neck of land projecting from the Continent of India, between the Island of 
Ceylon and the maialand, a plan which, if carried into execution, would have the 
effect of shortening the passage between England and Eastern India by 360 miles, 
and at the same time securing a safe and commodious harbour for large ships and 
steamers, infinitely preferable to that which is now available at Galle. 

'* The full details of this scheme are to be found in the accompanying paper, 
as described by Sir James Elphinstone himself; while the importance and 
feasibility of the project is attested in the letter which is quoted in that statement 
from Captain Donnan, the Master Attendant at Colombo. 

'' Looking to the great advantages to be obtained by the plan now proposed, 
the absence of all engineering difficulties in its execution, and the comparatively 
trifling cost which it will entail, 

" Your memorialists confidently hope that your Grace will afford your 
early and favourable consideration to the subject, and adopt such 
measures as may induce Her Majesty's Government, after such 
further investigation as may appear expedient, to sanction the 

(Signed) E. B. Eastwick, 

Chairman of the Council of the East India Association. 
Kazi Shahabudin, Acting Hon. Sec. 

Sir James Elphinstone, Bart, M.P. — My Lord Duke : To add to 
what I have said before I would remark that we have discovered finished 
charts at the Admiralty, on the scale of two inches to the mile, also 
topographical notes of a survey, in the handwriting of Captain Powell 
and another officer. They give a brief account of the shores of Madura ; 
and it is satisfactory to find that the sandstone rock which runs through 

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the Tonitori neck and across the pass exists at the point where we wish 
to cut the canal. The Government of Ceylon have determined, if prac- 
ticable, to make a harbour at Colombo, if 600,000?. or 700,000?. will 
defray the expense, and thus perfect their communication. The coaling 
at Colombo could- be done in fresh water, which is a point of importance. 
It would also materially aflPect the steam traffic, as vessels passing 
through Paumben Pass would still effect a saving of 250 miles by coaling 
at Colombo and proceeding through the Paumben Canal. And as the 
Secretary for Colonial Affairs has abandoned the idea of attempting im- 
portant works at Galle, it becomes absolutely necessary that some 
smooth-water harbour should exist for the purposes of coaling and as a 
station for vessels to take their departure. Under these circumstances 
the very growing trade which must ensue from the passage of the Suez 
Canal is worthy of your Grace's consideration, and we hope you will 
urge it upon the Government officer (Engineer Robertson) who is now 
in India for the very purpose of examining harbours along those coasts, 
to direct his especial attention to the points we have indicated, and thus 
the Government of India would be able to judge of the practicability 
and expense of the work. 

Mr. J. B. Smith, M.P. — I was a member of the Committee of the 
House of Commons on the Paumben Pass, and the Committee una- 
nimously reported in favour of making a ship canal through that pass ; 
but, as Sir James Elphinstone has observed, since that time the Suez 
Canal has been opened, and the importance of making a canal also 
through the Paumben Pass is become more urgent and necessary. Now 
I anticipate your Grace's objection to this project, and that is, a 
Government grant for the necessa<ry outlay. I have for many years 
endeavoured to show that all reproductive works of this nature may 
be made without costing the Government one farthing. I have repeatedly 
mentioned similar cases to this, where works have been executed in 
America without any cost to the Government, but I will now refer to a 
striking case in our own country. Little more than a century and -a 
half ago Liverpool was a mere fishing port j it is now one of the most 
important ports in this kingdom, and possesses some of the finest 
docks in the world, and these magnificent docks have been formed 
without costing the Government or the town of Liverpool one farthing. 
The whole of the money for their construction was borrowed by the 
issue of dock bonds, and to pay the interest and principal on these bonds 
a tonnage duty is levied on all ships entering the docks. And precisely 
the same course could be pui*sued in making the necessary canal at 
Paumben. The money might be borrowed without the slightest dif- 
ficulty, and the interest and principal may be both paid by levying a 

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small toll on ships passing through the canal. After that the toll might 
be reduced, or be made merely noaiinal. I have long been impressed 
with the important works the Indian Government might in this way 
undertake, without costing them anything, and the longer I live the 
stronger are my convictions on this subject. I may add that I speak 
the sentiments of the Chamber of Commerce at Manchester on this 
subject, having had the honour for some years of being its President. 

Mr. Hugh Birley, M.P. for Manchester. — I remember when I 
made the voyage to India some twenty-five years ago, the incon- 
venience of not having the passage now advocated was even then felt ; 
and the great development of tmde and shipping since that time makes 
the necessity of a passage for large ships through the Paumben Pass still 
greater. I concur with Mr. Smitli in the way it could be done. Take 
Indian railways as an example. The same principle, adopted in ques- 
tions of this sort, would produce great advantages to commerce and 
cause Government no risk, and Government should, I think, afford every 
possible facility for so important an undertaking, , . 

Sir Abxhur Cotton. — About fifty years ago the Madras Govern- 
ment sent me down to examine the Paumben Pass. I have been there 
repeatedly since that time, and I am quite confident that no engineering 
difficulty whatever exists, and the expense would be almost nominal, as 
I cannot conceive it costing more than 90,000^. 

The Duke of Argyll. — You have seen the spot which Sir James 
Elphinstone now recommends for a new ship canaU 

Sir Arthur Cotton. — I have been there repeatedly. The tonnage, 
which was 17,000 tons before we enlarged the present pass, has since 
been increased to 220,000 tons. It was then, according to the petty 
way in whiijh things were done in those days, impossible to get a large 
sum of money. We were all of opinion that it should be made a ship 
canal at first. SmaU sums of money were received from time to time, 
and the pass was deepened to twelve feet, by which innumerable lives 
have been saved. Since then 5,000,000 of tons have passed through. 
ITow that the Suez Canal is opened the whole phase of the case is 
altered. It was an important question before, but is now fifty times 
more so. In the course of this investigation it has been ascertained that 
there is the finest port in India at the site proposed for the canal* With 
respect to the cost and probable trafiic I have not the smaUest doubt 
that the tolls would paj« the interest over and over again. The tolls 
might be really nominal. France having made us a present of a canal 
which cost £18,000,000, I think it becomes us to accomplish the small 
Undertakings necessary to complete the communication between London 
and India. It should not be lost sight of thai by carrying out Sir 


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James Mphinstone's plan, a complete commnnication will be obtained 
between the capital of the Eastern and that of the Western half of the 
British Empire. Any sum should be devoted to such an enterprise. If 
it cost 100,000/. the tolls would pay it over and over again. The 
distance through the land is about a mile and a half; about half a mile 
on each side requires deepening ; therefore vessels would only have two 
and a half miles of narrow water to go through. It would be super- 
fluous to make it of sufficient width to allow vessels to pass each other, 
as tbey would seldom meet, and when they did they would be simply 
delayed twenty minutes. For coaling it would offer every possible 
facility, and coals would be supplied f 1*001 the Chunda coal-field through 
the port of Coringa at a moderate cost. The land there consists of soft 
sandstone, dead coral, and sand, which could be very easily cut tl^rough. 
We have done much in experimental work in sandstone, and I feel 
perfectly satisfied as an engineer that there is not the slightest difficulty 
in making a complete estimate of the cost. 

Mr. William Maitland. — Having been a merchant in Calcutta foi 
many years', and also a director of a Marine Insurance Ck)mpany, I can 
speak on the importance of the undertaking to merchants, shipowners, 
and underwriters, especially now that the Suez Canal is opened. Were 
this not the case the matter would still deserve attention as an import 
ant measure, but its importance is immensely increased now. It is 
well known that the traffic Ims already, to a great extent, been diverted 
from the old to this new route, and that steamers only are used on it. 
If a steamer has to go 360 miles less in her voyage to India she can do 
witb^ less coal, and consequently carry a larger freight-bearing cargOy 
which is exceedingly important. Then, again, time to steamers at present 
carrying on the trade is another important consideration ; as owners 
are doing all they can to turn their vessels quickly round, and they are 
j^aw carrying all sorts of goods, even the most bulky ones, the saving of 
time enabling them to run at low rates of freight. 

Mr. Andrew Oassels observed that in the opinion of mercantile 
men generally steam woiild soon quite supersede sails in the carrying 
trade between this country and the East ; that sailiog ships not. having 
auxiliary screws would giadually disappear from the Eastern s^s, save 
and except, perhaps, as carriers of one article — coaU, As steamers only 
could pa^ through the proposed channel^ the point was of importance. 

Mr. W. B'. FiTZWiLLlAM. — My Lord Duke : The subject now before 
your Grace has been so ably treated by the gentlemen who have pre- 
ceded me that it leaves but little for me to add; but as I have for thirty- 
five years been interested in the trade of India and China practically so 
for many years as a shipowner connected with America and England, I 

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can bear testimony to the great importance of the proposed undertaking 
. and I think may venture to say, in the name of the largest shipowners 
of this country, that they have for many years seen the great importance 
of such a means of communication being opened for the trade with the 
East The saving of time by the use of the proposed canal will be very 
great, and will therefore, looking at it in a pecuniaiy sense, be a great 
national profit. It is not, however, a merely Indian or English ques- 
tion, but one that will interest the whole commercial world — American^ 
Grerman, French, and Italian vessels, and especially those passing through 
the Suez Canal will gladly take advantage of the proposed canal, the 
more so as there is little doubt that the trade between the West and the 
East will for the future be carried on chiefly by steamers. The heavier 
class of cargoes, such as coals, &c., may still be carried by sailing vessels, but 
even that is a question for farther experience. Looking therefore at the 
proposal now laid before your Grace, as one of importance to the whole 
commercial world, I feel assured that all the owners of vessels using the 
canal would willingly pay a rate of toll that would not only pay a large 
interest for the money advanced, but also in a few years pay off the 
whole cost of its construction. Looking upon it as an Imperial question, 
affecting the commercial interests of both England and India, I will 
venture to say that I think our own Government should advance the 
necessary means for its construction ; and as for the money required for 
so doing, either with or without guarantee, I believe it can be raised by 
myself or others at an hour's notice in this very city of London. 

His Grace the Duke of Argyll expressed his opinion that if the 
work could be done for the sum named, or any sum near it, and if the 
amount of shipping which would take advantage of it were anything 
near the amount estimated by the gentlemen who had spoken, then the 
mere matter of expense was hardly worth considering. He must (K)int 
out, however, that the work was not exclusively an Indian one, but a 
work which concerned a great part of the commerce of the West with 
the whole East ; and whatever cost or risk might be involved was a cost 
and risk which ought to be shared by the Colonial and by the Imperial 

Mr. Eastwick : We thank your Grace, and are confident that the 
subject could not be in better hands. When it is done every one will 
wonder why it was not done before. 

P 2 

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The Annual Meeting of the East India AsROciation was held at 
20, Great George-street, London, S.W., on Wednesday, June 21, 1871, 
at three p.m. The Right Hon. the Lord Lyveden, P.O., President of the 
Association, occupied the chair. The minutes of the last annual meeting 
having been formally presented, the Right Hon, Chairman called upon 
the Acting Honorary Secretary, Dewan Kazi Shahabudin, to present 
the annual report. 

The Acting Hon. Secretary then presented the report, which was as 
follows : 

Your Council now beg .to submit their Report for the year 1870-71. 

In the last Report your Council congratulated the Association on 
the success of its exertions for the admission of natives into the Cove- 
nanted Civil Service, by the enactment of clause 6 of 33 Vic. cap. 3. 

It is now more than a year since this Act was passed, and the 
promulgation by the Viceroy of the rules, required by the said clause 
has been looked for with intense interest ; but your Council regrets to 
say that the rules are not yet published, and no opinion, therefore, 
•can yet be given as to how far the enactment of the above clause is 
likely to satisfy the just expectations of the natives of India. 

Witji regard to the Memorial presented by your Council on the subject 
of delay of justice to Indian appellants, the Association is aware that a 
Bill was brought last session into Parliament to reconstitute the appellate 
courts of this country. This Bill was not passed : but your Council has 
■reason to believe that this important subject will soon engage the atten- 
tion of Parliament ; for in reply to the question put by Mr. Watkin 
Williams on the 10th of March to the Secretary of State for the Home 
Department, whether he was aware that the accumulation of an^ears before 
the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council is greatly on the increase, 
io the serious pecuniary loss of the suitors, and whether it was the inten- 
tion of Her Majesty's Government to propose any measure .in the present 
session to remedy this grievance, Mr. Bruce said,: that although the 
arrears had recently rather decreased than increased, as he was in- 
formed, it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to introduce a 
Bill this session on the subject. 

A third important subject, that of the relation of Native States to 
the British Government, and the principles of adjudication on matters of 
dispute arising among themselves, or between any one of them and the 
Imperial Government^ has not been lost sight of, and the Council hopes 

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that farther dLscussion and practical action thereon may take' place 
hereafter. > 

In the last Report the Council had expressed a hope that the papers 
then expected to be read during the session would prove interesting and 
useful, and it cannot, but congratulate the Association on the realisa- 
tion of this hope to a degree far beyond its expectation. The Council 
ventures to say that the last session of this Association has been one of 
great public and practical value. 

The following is a list of the papers read, from which the important 
and useful character of the topics brought forward will be easily seen :^-^ 

May 13. — Miss Carpenteb.' On the Work done by her for Female 

Education in India. 
June 8. — Professor Theodor Goldstucker, Ph.D. On the Deficiencies 

in the present Administration of Hindu Law. 
June 15. — I. T. Prichard, Esq. On Indian Finance. 
June 22. — Sir Bartle Frere. On Public Works in India. 
June 30. — W. S. Fitzwilliam, Esq. On the Present and Future Pro- 
duct t)f Cotton in India compared with that of Americia 

and other Cotton Producing Countries. 
July 6. — Sir Bartle Frere. Adjourned Discussion, On Public Works 

in India. 
July 13.— Major Evans Bell. Is India a Conquered Country] And if 

so, what then 1 
July 27.— Sir Charles TreVelyan. On the Finances of India. 
July 27. — Dadabhai Naoroji, Esq. The Wants and Means of India. 
July 27. — Resolution to Memorialise Parliament for Select Copimittees 

to Inquire into the Whole Administration of India, 
' 1871. 
The Petition to the House of Commons (in accordance with the above 

Resolution) was presented on Friday, l7th Feb., by Sir 

Charles J. Wingfield, K.C.S.I., C.B , M.P, 
Ma/rch 7. — Sir Charles Trevelyan. Adjourned Discussion. On the 

Finances of India. 
March 28.— Sir James Elphinstone, Bart., M.P. On the Proposed Plan 

to Cut a Channel for Ships between India and Cc)'lon. 
To all the readers of the papers, and the gentlemen who took an 
active part in the discussions, the Council tender their best thanks. 

Dr. Goldstucker's paper on Hindu Law, the Council has reason to 
think, will lead t'o some practical steps being taken in the official depart- 
ment that is responsible for this branch of administrati(m. 

The chief question of our last session was Indian Finance. The 
weight and authority of the opinions of the readers of various papers, 

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especially of l^fr. I. T. Prichard in the first instanoe, and subseqaently 
of Sir Bartle Frere and Sir Charles Trevelyan, attracted much 
attention to the subject, and at once led to action on the part of this 
Association, with marked and manifest effect. The Council, in accord- 
ance with the Besolution proposed by Mr. ^V, Tayler, and passed at its 
meeting of 27th July last, under the presidency of Sir Charles Trevelyan, 
presented a petition to the House of Commons by one of its own body, 
Sir Charles Wingfield, Member for Gravesend, for the appointment of a 
Select Committee to inquire into the financial and general administration 
of India. 

The Committee, on the motion of Mr. H. Fawcett, and subsequently 
on that of the Right Hon. the Prime Mihister, has been appointed and 
is already at work ; and although, to the great regret of the Council, the 
inquiries have been restricted to the question of finance, it is hoped that 
the labours, of this Select Committee will greatly benefit India, by 
creating, both in Parliament and in the public mind, an interest in 
the settlement and adoption of sound principles of administration, by 
which the prosperity, elevation, and enlightenment of India may be 
promoted in a manner worthy of its British rulers. The Council takes 
this opportunity of thanking all those Members of Parliament who 
aided in obtaining the appointment of the Select Committee. 

Mr. C. E. Spooner had offered to read a very able paper on the 
adoption of a narrow gauge for future railways in India, and the Council 
had accepted the offer. Subsequently however, the Council becoming 
aware that the Indian Government had adopted the narrow gauge, 
decided, with the concurrence of Mr. Spooner himself, that there was no 
necessity to read his paper, for which the thanks of the Association were 
given, and it was therefore withdrawn. 

In order to extend the effect of our labours as widely as 
possible, the Hon. Sec. read a paper at a meeting of the Society of 
Arts, on " The Commerce of India." The Society of Arts, therefore, 
it will be seen from this, as well as from the frequent permission 
:to use i1^ rooms for the meetings of this Association^ gives the great 
advantage of its cordial co-operation, and the Council records with plea- 
sure its deep sense of obligation to that distinguished and influential 
Society. The Association is also aware that liie Society of Arts, in 
addition to the kind assistance thus given, holds its own Indian Con- 
ferences, and thus further promotes the main objects of this Association. 

The Council has arranged with Messrs. Hansard to print separately in 
a pamphlet form all the Indian debates in Parliament. The number for 
the latter half-session of the last year is ready and is for sale at the 
offices of the Association, at 2s. a copy. The Council intends to con- 
tinue this publieation if a Buffioient number of subscribers be obtained. 

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It is very gratifying to the Council to find that the objects of this 
Association — viz., to aid in the proper administration of the afGeiira 
of India by respectfully submitting to the Indian authorities from 
time to time matters and views tending to that effect — are, it has 
reason to believe, understood and appreciated by the authorities. 
Your Council continues to i-eceive much infoi-mation from the India 
Office, by the present of Parliamentary Returns, Selections from Govern- 
ment Records, and other publications of the Home or Indian Govern- 
ments, many of which would not be otherwise obtainable. 

Your Council has also received a large and liberal present of works 
on India, which could be spared from the India Office Library. For all 
this the Council tenders its best thanks to his Grace the Duke of 
Argyll and Mr. Grant Duff. The application of the Council to the 
different Indian Governments to furnish this Association and its Bom- 
bay Branch with such publications as the India Office cannot spare 
from their Records has been promptly responded to by the Governments 
of India, Bengal, Madras, and the Punjaub, and the Council tenders its 
best thanks for the same. Replies from the other Governments and 
Administi-ations have not yet been received. 

Presents of books have continued, and the Council has, on every 
occasion, offered its thanks to the donors. A complete list of the books 
in the library of the Association is now in course of preparation, in 
which the names of the donors will be given. The Council is glad to 
inform the Association that the Proprietors of the following Indian 
newspapers, both Native and English, present a copy for the use of 
the Reading-room of this Association : — 

The Delhi Gazette Agra. 

„ Align/rh Gazette.., Aligurh. 

„ Mofumlite Allahabad. 

„ Hindu RefoTTner Bombay. 

„ Indu Prakaah , 9, 

,^ Noitvoe Opinion ,> 

„ Times of India ,., „ 

„ Bengalee Calcutta. 

„ Friend of India „ 

„ Hindoo Patriot 99 

„ Indian DaUy News 9) 

„ Indian EcoTwmist i, 

„ Indian Mirror n 

„ Jahvlpv/r Chronicle Jabulpur. 

„ Madras Atl^noeum and Daily News .... Madras. 

„ Madras Times 99 

„ Indian Public Opinion Lahore. '* 

„ Kohi-noor 9> 

To the Proprietors of the above papers the Council tenders its best thanks. 

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. Your Council thinks it proper to bring to the notice of the 
Association certain incidents which do not come under detailed 
record. It has frequently happened that the Council has desired to 
take action in regard to sundry matters on which information was 
desirable. In these cases, instead of entering upon formal and official 
correspondence, several Members of your Council, more especially Sir 
Charles Wingfield and Mr. Eastwick, have made the necessary inquiries 
personally, and thus enabled the Council to dispose of the question 
without delay or difficulty. 

The Hon. Secretary particularly requests the Council to allow him 
the opportunity of recording his obligations to Mr. Grant Duff and the 
Secretaries and Heads of the different departments of the India Office, 
for always promptly and courteously furnishing him with any infor- 
mation he needed that could possibly be given. This help enabled the 
Hon. Sec. to avoid much unnecessary formal correspondence, and to 
study several important matters which, otherwise, it would have been 
out of his power to do. 

Since the last meeting sixty-six new Members have been elected. 

The Association will remember that at the time of the death of the 
late Secretary, the accotints being left in great confusion, the Hon. 
Secretary had offered to go through all documents and books, and put 
them in order. As much of his time, however, was taken up by the 
current work of the Association, the Council gave him the assistance of 
Mr* J. T. Zom, who, with great zeal and ability, as a professional 
accountant, has examined the accounts thoroughly, and prepared com- 
plete books from the very commencement of the Association. An 
abstract of such accounts from the commencement of the Association is 
appended for the information of Members* 

The Council has requested and authojdsed the Hod. Sec, who has 
just gone to India, to inquire why the remittances made during the last 
eighteen months havlB been so limited. The Council further expresses its 
hope that this Association, as an institutibn in this country and as a 
living symbol of British sympathy with fhe welfare of India, will be 
largely supported by the English public genei-ally, its objects being no 
other than to aid in promoting the contentment and enlightenment of oar 
200,000,000 of fellow subjects, and thus, by securing their loyalty and 
attachment to the British rule, to increase the strength and prosperity 
of the BHtish Empii'e. The Council makes a special appeal to English- 
men who have had or have connections with India, by commerce, 
service, or in independent professions, to lend their aid in the work of this 
Association for promoting the elevation and happiness of the people 
of India. The CouncUi thereforoi hopes that every Member of the 

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Association will exert his influence to interest and induce his friends to 
support it. 

The Council has had communications during the year with the 
British Indian Association, the Bombay Association, the Chuprah As- 
sociation, the Madras Petition Committee, and the Poona Sarvajanic 

The following Members of Council retire by rotation. The Council 
recommends their re-election : Lord Walter Henry Erskine, Lord W. M. 
Hay, Colonel W. H. Sykes, M.P., Lieut.-Colonel Jervis, M.P., Sir Frede- 
rick M; Williams, Bart., M.P., E. B. Eastwick, Esq., C.B., M.P. 

The following Membei^ of Council were elected in the room of 
others who had resigned and left England. The Council recommends 
confirmation of their election : — 

Members Elected, 

C. P. Lutchmeepathy Naidoo Garoo, in place of — 

Syed Ahmed Khan, Esq., returned to India* 

William Fowler, Esq., M.P., ditto— 

D. D. Cama, Esq., returned to India* 

R. K Fowler, Esq., M.P., ditto— 

Major-General C. P. North, resigned. 

Standish G. Grady, Esq., ditto — 

H. A. Wadya, Esq., returned to India. 

C. B. Denison, Esq., M.P., ditto— 

The Earl of Kellie, resigned. 

The Report of the Bombay Branch of your Association is appended. 

Mr. Dadabhai Naoroji having intimated his intention of visiting 
Bombay for the purpose of communicating with the subscribers at that 
Presidency, the following resolution was unanimously passed : — 

"The Council of the East India Association, hearing from Mr. Dada- 
bhai Naoroji that he purposes proceeding to India, resolves to take this 
opportunity of tendering to him its warm acknowledgment for his 
assiduous attention to the interests of the Association. It accepts 
with thanks his kind offer to advocate the claims of the Association in 
Bombay, and trusts his exertions on behalf of the Association will 
meet with success. It hereby requests and authorises him to take such 
"Steps to attain that end as he may deem expedient, not only in Bombay, 
but also in such other parts of Judia as he may visit. 

" Resolved, that the offer of Dewan Kazi Shahabadin to act as 
Hon. Secretary during Mr. Dadabhai's absence be accepted with thanks*" 

The Right Hon. the Chairman observed that the Council might 
advantageously turn their attention to economy in expenditure, and the 
printing account appeared fit matter for inquiry. The Council had had 

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a series of highly interesting lectures, but he would warn them not 
indiscriminately to print every one of them; and others might be 
obtained in a much cheaper form. Take, for instance, the lecture on 
a very abstruse subject, by Dr. Goldstiicker. It was printed at the 
Association's expense, and issued to the members ; yet the next day 
after the issue of the Journal he (the speaker) received the. same lecture 
in a pamphlet form published by Dr. Qoldstiicker himself. 

Dr. Theodor Goldstucker explained that after the Association's 
copies had been printed, he had some extra copies struck off for distribu- 
tion among non-members of the Association, at his own expense. 

The Right Hon. Chairman remarked that this only showed that 
extra expense was incurred by somebody, either the Association or 
Dr. GoldstUcker ; and there was little doubt that in other respects the 
printing expenses might be largely diminished. He repeated that as 
there were no probable means of increasing the revenue of the Associa- 
tion^ the Council must turn their attention to decreasing the expenditure 
wherever it was practicable. 

Mr. FiTZWiLLiAM said the printing expenses had been reduced fully 
twenty-five per cent. In respect to the printing of the papers which 
were read before the Association they could hardly further curtail the 
expenses ; and some of them were of great value and importancci as, 
for instance, the paper recently given by Sir Bar tie Frere. 

Colonel Sykes agreed in thinking the printing expenses somewhat 
heavy. There was no other society or association in London which did 
not refer to a committee any paper which was proposed to be read, and 
the examining conuuittee decided whether it was a suitable subject, and 
fixed a day for its i*eading. But if the papers were not subject to a se- 
lection of this kind there was no knowing what the expenses would be. 
All papers ojSered to be read should be reported on by a committee. 

Mr. FiTZWiLLlAM said he thought the papers read before the Associa- 
tion were always examined previously by the Council ; and even though 
the expense was very great, the exceptional meiit of most of the papers 
amply justified the cost. He then moved the adoption of the. report 

Mr. Gibbons seconded the motion, which was agreed to nenu con, 

Mr. FiTZWiLLiAM proposed that the Right Hon. the Lord Lyveden, 
P.C, be re-elected President for the ensuing year ; and in doing so he re- 
marked that he thought it was hardly necessary to say how greatly they 
were indebted to the Noble Chairman for the assistance he gave in 
establishing the Association, and for what he has done in supporting it. 
In spite of their difficulties, there was no association in London which 
held a higher i-ank than the East India Association, a result mainly due 
to Lord Lyveden and the other members of the Council, who had greatly 
interested themselves in the Association's welfare. 

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Dbwan Kazi Shahabudin seconded the motion, which was carried 

The noble Chairman, in acknowledging the vote, said he thanked 
them for the honour they conferred upon him. He was perfectly ready 
to go on as President, if he could be of any use ; although he confessed 
he was ashamed to think of how little use he was. The numeroas calls 
upon his time, however, prevented him from doing more. In conclusion, 
he expressed his best wishes for the prosperity and success of the 

Captain Palmer proposed that the following noblemen and gentlemen 
be elected Vice-Presidents for the ensuing year : 

The Most Noble the Marquis of Salisbury, P.C, M.A., F.R.S., M.R.A.S. 
The Right Hon. the Earl of Shaftesbury, K.G., F.R. A.S., F.S.S., «kc. 
The Right Hon. the Earl of ELLENBOROuan, G.G.B., P.C, F.R.G.S., &c. 
The Right Hon. Lord Harris, G.C.S.I. 
General Lord Strathnairn, Q.C.B., G.C.S.L, Member of KM.'s^Most 

Honourable Privy Council of Ireland. 
General Right Hon. Lord Sandhurst, G.C.B., G.C.S.L, P.C. 
Lord Wm. Montagu Hay, F.R.G.S., M.R.A.S. 
Sir James Ferguson, Bart., Governor of South Australia, P.C. 
Sir Charles Edward Trevelyan, KC.B., F.R»G.S., &c. 
Right Hon. James Stansfeld, P.C., M.P. 
Colonel William Henry Sykes, M.P., F.R.S., V.P.S.S., &o. 
His Highness the Rao of Kutch, G.C.S.I. 
His Highness the Nawab of Joonaghur, K.C.S.I. 
In proposing this list Captain Palmer remarked that he need only men- 
tion the names to show what interest was taken in the Association. 

Mr. Price seconded the motion, which was unanimously agreed to. 

Dr. Theodor Goldstucker moved that the following noblemen and 
gentlemen b^ elected to foi m a Council for the ensuing year : 
0/tairmaw— E. B. Eastwick, Esq., C.B., M.P., F.R.S., F.S.A., M.R.A.S. 
Vice-Chairman — Sir Charles John Wingfield, K.C.S.L, C.B., M.P.,(fec. 
Lord Walter Henry Erskine. 
Lord Wm. Montagu Hay, F.R.G.S., M.R.A.S. 
Sir F. M. Williams, Bart., M.P., F,G.S., F.A.S.L., &c. 
Field-Marahal Sir George Pollock, G.C.B., G.C.S.L, F.R.G.S., 

M.R.A.S., &c. 
Majoir-General. Sir Henry C. Rawlinson, K.C.S.I., K.C.B., LL.D., 
D.C.L., F.R.S., V.P.R.G.S., V.P.R.S.L., Ord. Boruss. "Pour le 
Merite" Eq., &c. 
Major-General Sir Vincent Eyre, K.C.S.L, C.B., R.A., F.R.G.S. 
Major-General Sir R. Wallace, K.C.S.L 

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Major-General Edw. Wm. S. Scott, R.A. 

Colonel W. H. Sykes, M.R, Hon. M.RJ.A., F.R.S., F.R. A.S.,V.P.S.S., 

F.G.S., F.R.G.S. 
Lieut. -Colonel H. J. W. Jervis, M.P. 
William Fowler, Esq., M.P., F.S.S. 
R. N. Fowler, Esq., M.P., M.A., F.R.G.S. 
Christopher Beckett Denison, Esq., M.P. 
Standish Grove Grady, Esq., Recorder of Gravesend, Reader on 

Hindu Law, &c. 
Colonel Pat. Theo. French. 
Major Thomas Evans Bell, M.R.A.S. 
Captain William Charles Palmer. 
Professor Theodor Goldstucker, Ph.D. 
W. S. FiTzwiLLiAM, Esq., F.R.G.S., F.S.S. 
L T. Prichard, Esq., F.RG.S.j F.S.S., &c. 
P. m' Tait, Esq., F.R.G.S., F.S.S. 
Stephen P. Low, Esq., F.R.G.S. 
William Tatler, Esq., Retired B.C.S. 
Patrick Pirie Gordon, Esq. 

Khan Bahadoor Kazi Shahabudin, Dewan of H.H* the Rao of KuTcit. 
MouLVi Syed Ameer Ali, M.A., LL.B. 
Dadabhai Naoroji, Esq., Hon. Sec. 
Jamsetji JlVANJi Gazdar, Esq., M.A. 
Baboo Kishori Mohun Chatterjee, LL.B., B.A. 
C. P. Lutqhmeepathy Naidoo Garoo, F.S.S., M.R.A.S. 

Syed Ameer Ali, in seconding the motion, said he was sure all who 
were present would heartily agree to the election of the names read hy 
Dr. Goldstucker. 

The motion was then agreed to nem con. 

Gen. Sir G. Le G. Jacob proposed that the thanks of the Association 
be given to the President, Vice-Presidents, and Members of the Council 
for the past year. He said he thought thej all ought to be, and were, 
most deeply indebted to those gentlemen who took this trouble merely 
for the sake of the interest which they felt in the distant country in 
whose behalf the Association was established. These gentlemen who 
thus gave their time and their services could have no personal object to 
serve in meeting together to listen to anything that might be of benefit 
to the people of India j and those who devoted however small a portion 
of their time to such a work were deserving of the deep gratitude of the 
people of India and of those who, like himself, were retired from it, and, 
although looking soon to leave the world altogether, still felt an interest 
in the country they had left, In conclusion,' he' trusted the Council 
would continue to exhibit the strong interest they had manifested in the 

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past in all that would promote the welfare, or was associated wiih the 
well-being of the people of India. (Hear, hear.) 

Mr. I. T. Pbichard seconded the resolution, remarking that although 
his position as a Member of the Council made his doing so appear rather 
invidious, yet he could bear personal testimony to the fact that his col- 
leagues had done their best to fulfil the duties entrusted to them. 

The resolution was then adopted. 

Sir Henry Ricketts proposed *• a vote of thanks to Mr, Dadabhai 
Naoroji, Hon. Sec. of the Association, for his untiring zeal and devoted* 
ness to the interests of the ! Association,''; and, iii doing so, he observed 
that, from what had already passed, it was certain that the Association 
were under great obligations to Mr, Dadabhai, for he not only undei-took 
and performed the duties of the Honorary Secretary without any remune- 
ration, but it was quite clear that if it had not been for his timely 
advance of funds, the Association would have been placed in a very 
anomalous position. • 

Mr. Lewis seconded the motion, which was agreed to unanimously. 

Colonel Sykes said the occasion ought not to be allowed to pass 
without an acknowledgment on the part of the Association of the very 
valuable services of the present Acting Honorary Secretary, Dewan 
Kazi Shahabudin, who had done the work since Mr. Dadabhai had gone 
away. (Hear, hear.) 

Gen. Sir G. Le G. Jacob said he could cordially second that motion. 
He had known Dewan Kazi Shahabudin for twenty years, and had 
always the highest opinion of him; and the Association were fortunate 
in securing his services. He deserved the sincere thanks of the Asso- 
ciation for the labour he had undertaken. 

The resolution having been carried, 

Dewan Kazi Shahabudin, after briefly acknowledging the compli- 
ment, said what had been said about him was very encouraging to him. 
He did not feel that he was making any great sacrifice in giving his 
time to the advancement of the interests of the Association. 

Mr. FiTZwiLLiAM proposed a vote of thanks to; the noble Chairman 
for the manner in which he had conducted the business of the meeting. 

Colonel Sykes seconded the motion, and observed that he had great 
pleasure in bearing testimony to the interest which Lord Lyveden had 
always exhibited in Indian affairs for forty years or mote^ 

The resolution having been agreed to nem. con,. 

Lord Lyveden acknowledged the vote by observing that he only 
wished his services to the Association were equal to the gratitude 
expressed by the members. 

The proceedings then terminated. 

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I. — Objects op the Associatiost. 

Article 1, The East India Association is instituted for the inde- 
pendent and disinterested advocacy and promotion, by all legitimate 
means, of the public interests and welfare of the Inhabitants of India 

II. — Members. 

Article 2. The Association shall consist of Kesidont and Non- 
Resident Ordinary and Honorary Members. 

Article 3. Honorary Members shall have the same rights and 
privileges as Ordinary Members. 

Article 4. Honorary Members shall be nominated J)y the Council 
at any Ordinary Meeting, and shall consist of persons who have dis- 
tinguished themselves in promoting the good of India. 

Article 5. Ordinary Members shall be nominated in writing by two 
Members of the Association, and elected after ten days* notice of such 
nomination, at the next General Meeting of the Council, if approved by 
a majority of two-thirds present thereat; 

Article 6. The Election of every Member, both Ordinary and 
Honorary, shall be recorded on the minutes of the Council ; and the 
Secretary shall forthwith notify, by letter, his election to the Member, 
and request such Member to furnish a standing order on his Banker for 
his Annual Subscription. 

Article 7. Ordinary Members shall pay an Annual Subscription of 
IZ., or 10 Rs., on the 1st January in every year ; or may compound for 
the same by payment of 100 Rs., or lOZ., which shall constitute a 
Life Member. 

Note— Total Annual Subscription, including Journal (delivered free of postage) £16 
Life Subscription ditto ditto 14 

Annual Subscription (including Journal), in India 18- Rupees 8 Annas. 

Life Subscription ditto ditto 150 „ 

III. — Mode op Management. 

Article 8. The Management of the Association shall be vested in 
a Council, consisting of a Chairman, yice-Chairman, and Thirty Ordi- 
nary Members ; Five to form a Quorum ; and Eight to retire annually 
by Kotation, but eligible for re-election at the Annual Meeting. 

Aj'ticle 9. A President of the Association shall be appointed at the 
Annual Meeting ; and the Council may, from time to time, nominate 
distinguished Indian Statesmen, or others, as Vice-Presidents, subject 
to the confirmation of the next Annual Meeting of the Association. 

Article 10. The Council shall appoint a Secretary, and such other 
Employes as may be necessary, and fix their Salaries and Emoluments. 

Article 11. The Council may fill up Vacancies in their own body, 
until the next Annual Meeting of the Association. 

Article 12. The Council shall meet on the First Wednesday in the 

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month; but the Chairman, Vice-Chairman, or any three Members 
of the Council may at any^ time convene a Meeting by giving three 
days' notice. 

Article 13. The. Council may appoint Special SubrCommittees of not 
less than Five Members of the Association, three of whom shall form 
a Quorum. 

Article 14. At the desire of Five Members of the Council, or on the 
written requisition of Ten Members of the Association, the Secretary 
shall convene a Special Meeting of the Association. 

Functions of the Officers. 

Article 15. The President, or, in his absence, any Vice-President, or 
in the absence thereof, any Member, shall preside at the Annual or 
Ordinary Meetings of the Association. 

Article 16. The Chairman or Vice-Chairman of the Council, or, 
in their absence, any Member thereof nominated by those present, shall 
preside at the Meetings of the Council. 

Annual Meeting. 

Article 17. The Annual Meeting of the Association shall be held in 
the month of May in every year. 

Article 18. General Ordinary Meetings of the Association for pro- 
moting the interests thereof, and for the discussion of subjects connected 
with India, shall be held at such times and places as the Council may 

Article 19. A statement of the Accounts of the Association shall 
be prepared, audited by one of the Members of the Council and one 
Member taken from the general body of the Members of the Society, 
and circulated with the Report of the Council to each Resident Member 
ten days before the Annual Meeting. 

Local Committees. 
Article 20. Local Committees shall be appointed in India by Local 
Subscribers j subject to the approval of the Council; and the co-opera- 
tion of independent Local Associations in India is invited by the " East 
India Association." 

Article 21. The Council shall have power to make and alter any 
Bye-laws for the Management of the Association. 

Alteration of Rules. 
Article 22. No addition to or alteration in these Rules shall be made, 
except at the Annual Meeting of the Association, previous notice being 
given in the Circular convening the Meeting. 

Journal of the Association. 

' Article 23. The Council may, in their discretion, publish quarterly 

or otherwise, a Journal, containing a Report of the several General and 

other Meetings of th« Association. Papers submitted for discussioii 

shall be published in extenso, or not, as the Council may dacide. 

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Financial Administration of India, 

[Addressed to the Select Committee on East India Finance by the Hon. Secretary 
of the East India Association, Mr. Da.dabhai Naorojl] 

A CONSIDEKABLE nnmber of the best informed and most influential 
Native and English inhabitants of India, together with others of Her 
Majesty's subjects of all ranks who have the welfare o^hat portion of 
the British Empire at heart, asked for Parh'amentary inquiry. Parliament 
readily granted a Select Committee of the House of Commons, though for 
an inquiry which was to be limited to Financial Administration. It is, I 
think, doe to Parliament and to the Select Committee that those who 
prayed for inquiry should say in time what they want, for it would 
be both unreasonable and useless for them to complain afterwards that 
the Select Committee did not do this or that. As a native of India, and 
one who joined in a petition from the East India Association, I most 
respectfully submit for the consideration of the Select Committee a few 
remarks as to what I hope and desire from it. 

The Financial Administration of any country, like all other human in- 
stitutions, requires four important elements: — 

1st. Materials. ^ 

2nd. Head to design. 

3rd. Hand to execute. 

4th. Sound principles of design and execution. Upon the degree of 
perfection of each and all of these requisites depends the measure of 

I. — Materials. 

This is the moat important and fundamental question for decision. 
Without suflBcient and suitable materials to work with, all the other 
requisites are of no avail whatsoever. 

The question, then, is.: Does India, even at the present day, produce 
enough to supply, without hardship or privation, both its ordinary wants 
as a nation, and its extraordinary and peculiar want to remit to a foreign 
distant country a portion of its produce as the natural economical result 
of a foreign rule ? I say that India does not produce enough even for 
the ordinary necessary wants of its children, much less for all their social 
and peculiar political wants. Is this a fact or not ! The Indian Govern- 

Part 4.— Vol, V. g 

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ment is bound to answer this question ^finitely. If the India Office should 
prove me to be wrong, no one will rejoice more than myself. If I be rights 
then, no ingenious device of even teln Wilsons or Temples will relieve the 
Einancial Administration of its difficulties, toless the Indan legislators 
and financiers possesss the Divine power of creating something out of 
nothing. The poverty and privations af the country once admitted, the 
question then will be, how to remedy this fundamental evil The subject 
of the remedies ultimately resolves itself into the following: — 

1st. Provision of capital necessary tor all public works of a permanent 
character, both ordinary and extraordinary, which are required to increase 
production and facilitate distribution, to be provided, if India ^ im* 
poverished, and has it not, 

2nd. A juSl adjustment of the financial relations between India and 
England, so that the political drain may be reasonably diminished,* 

3rd. The best way of attracting capital and enterprise to utilise the 
vast culturable waste lands. 

4th. The best way of increasing the intelligence of the people by a 
comprehensive plan of national educatibn, both high and popular. 

If the fact of the poor production of Indiia can be proved directly, any 
indirect test may not be considered necessary ; but as questiofn§ have been 
already put in the Committee about ^tich tests, and as these tests are 
frequently appealed to as proving the prosperity of the country, I thiAit 

* I give this chief cause of the imDoveHshment c^f a oonii'try in the ivords of Sir 
R. Temple himself, written under tne direction of Lord litwrence. (Ponjaub 
Administration Report for 1856-8, Parii'amentary Return 21'2 of 1859, page 16) :— 

<* In former reports it was explained how the circumstance bf so much iftouey 
going out of the PuDJaub contributed to depress the agneulturist. Tba jatative 
regular army was Hindostanee ; to them was a large share of the Punjaub revenues 
disbursed, of which a part only they spent on the spot, and a jiArt was remitted to 
their homes. Thus it was that, year after year, lakhs and lakhs Were draiued ffO$Q the 
Puujaub, and enriched Oudh. But within the last year, the native army being 
PuDJabee, all such sums have been paid to them, and bAro be^n spent at hdme. 
Again, many thousands of Punjabee soldiers are serving abroad. These soim not 
only remit their savings, but also have sent quantities of prize property and plunder, 
the spoils of Hindoostan, to their native villages. The effect of all this is already 
perceptible in an increase of agricultaTal capilad,ii freer difciilation of mondy, iind a 
fresh impetus to cultivation." 

'* The Report has been prepared under the direction of Sir John Lawrence, 
K.C.B., Chief Commissioner of Punjaub, by 

" R TiaiPtK, 
Secretaiy to Chief Commissioner, Punjaub." 

May I appeal to Sir R. Temple to ponder over this extract, and in his new place of 
a financier of India, look this same evil for* nil India boldly tn the -face, «nd fittniy 
suggest its proper remedies ; so that the burden of the millions and millions that ta^ 
*^ year after year drained " from India to England may be reasonably lightened, and 
the ability of the people to meet the legitimate pottio'n of the drimi increased to the 
necessary extent ? Is it also too much for India to ei^pecl, or 9wm to okini from 
Lord Lawrence to represent this evil to the Select Committee and to PaHiament, and 
to obtain for India full redress ? 

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neoessaiy to say a few words regarding them. Tbe teste I refer to jmm^ 
particularly are " rise " in prices and wages, and importe of 43imion. I 
hope mere general assertions on these points will not be considered Bjsi" 
ficient. To understand correctly the phenomena of prices and wages, :it 
is absolutely necessary for the India Office to prepare a return of the 
prices and wages of all districts from, say, twenty years prior to the 
British acquisition, to the present day, giving also opposite to the figures 
for each year the causes of the rise or fall, as the case may be. Such 
a return alone will show the effect of " the drain," after the BritiA 
acquisition, either as to how far any rise, on the one hand, was the result 
of scarcity of production, or of increase of prosperity, or of local expen- 
diture on public works ; or, on the other, how far any fall w^s the result 
of abundance of produce or the poverty of the district; and, further, 
whether the rise or fall was general or local, permanent or temporary. 
The average of a collection of districts of the whole country must also 
be taken correctly, and not in the erroneous manner in which they are at 
present made up in the Administration Reports. 

To show the necessity of what I ask in the above paragraph, I give a 
few instances. In the Madras selection from Government Records, No. 
XXXI., of 1856, prices are given of certain periods for several districts. 
I take those of Chingleput (page 23), for the years 1841-50 (Faslee, 
1251-60), during which the prices suddenly rose from Rs.82 per Garoe 
of Paddy in 1254, to Rs.l26 in the next year 1255, and toRs.124 in 12^6, 
and again went down to Rs.96 and 69 in the succeeding years. So at 
Rajahmundry, in the prices for the years 1236 to 1245 (1826 to 1834), 
there is a sudden rise from Rs.64 in 1241 to Rs.lll in 1242, and to Rs.l68 
in 1243, going down again to Rs.95 and 63 in the succeeding two 
years. Now, are these high prices in the two couples of yeai^s the resBd|t 
of scarcity or prosperity? If the former, how very wrong it would foe to 
take the high averages of these ten years for comparison or as an indiGar 
tion of prosperity ? The last two years in the Punjaub have been bad 
seasons, and the price of wheat has risen from 1st January, '68, to 1st 
January, 70, at Delhi, from 26 seers (of 21bs.) per Rs.l to 9 seers; «t 
Ambala from 24 seers to 9 seers; at Lahore, from 18 seers to 9^. 
-(Punjaub Adm. Report for 1869-70, p. 95.) 

Now, is it right from high averages occasioned in this manner to infer 
prosperity? An hon. Member recently quoted in Parliament the high 
price of rice at Jubbulpore. Had his informant been a little more com- 
municative, he would have learnt that, while at Jubbulpore, say. in the 
average good season of 1867-8, the price was Rs.3| per maund, in the 
adjoining division of Chutteesghur, the price at Raipore and Belas*- 
pore was only Rs.l per maund, or nearly one^fourth; and ithat 


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therefore Jabbulpore, with its local expenditure on public works, 
was no criterion for the rest of the country. In the North-west 
Provinces, the price of wheat was about the same in the years 
1860 and 1868. But during that interval the province passed 
through a great famine, and had famine prices. Now, will the average 
taken with these famine prices be a proper criterion for inferences 
of prosperity ? With regard to the erroneous mode of taking averages of 
a number of districts, by adding up the prices and dividing the total by 
the number of the districts, without reference to the quantity produced in 
each district, I need simply refer to the average teken in the Report of 
the Central Provinces for 1867-68. It is there made out for rice to be 
Rs.2| per maund, when the actual average was only about Rs.lJ. 

These few instances will, I hope, suflSce to show how carefully the 
test of prices, and similarly that of wages, have to be ascertained and 
applied. With reference to wages, two important elements must be borne 
in mind — the number of the labourers who earn each rate of wages, and 
the number of days such wages are earned during the year. 

So far as my inquiries go at present, ^he conclusion I draw is, that 
wherever the East India Company acquired territory impoverishment 
followed their steps, and it is only from the time that loans for irrigation 
and railways and other public works, and the windfall of the benefits from 
the American War returned back, as it were, some of the lost blood, that 
India has a little revived. But it will require vigorous and steady efforts 
to increase the production of the country, and diminish its drain to 
England, before it will be restored to anything like ordinary good health, 
and be freed from famines. 

With regard to imports of bullion, there are suflScient returns for the 
past seventy years ; but they require to be carefully examined to draw any 
correct inferences from them, taking into consideration the non-production 
of bullion in the country, the revenue being required to be paid in money, 
and thereby making silver a necessity in all ordinary transactions of life, 
the vast population among whom these imports are distributed, and the 
amount of treasure the East India Company and their servants carried 
away during the last century in the shape of salaries, bribes, booty, &c. 
Cannot the India Office make some return on this point, to show the ex- 
haustion of the country thus caused which required to be replenished by 
subsequent imports ? It is no use simply depending upon the re-echoing of 
the general exclamation, "What an enormous quantity of silver has gone to 
India ! " 1 entreat most earnestly that the first element — viz., the material 
condition of India — may be most carefully sifted, and the necessary 
remedies be applied. If this question be not boldly and fairly grappled 
with it will be, in my humble opinion, the principal rock on which British 

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rale will wreck. It is impossible for any nation to go on being im* 
poverished without its ultimate destruction, or the removal of the cause. 

II. Head to Design. 
The head which designs the Imperial financial legislation is the 
Supreme Legislative Council, while local legislation is designed by the 
local Councils. All these Councils have a controlling head in the India 
Office Council in London. The questions, then, to be decided, in order 
that the designing head may be as efficient and adapted to the end as 
possible, resolve themselves into these : — 

1st. Can any legislation ever do its work satisfactorily in which the 
opinions, feelings, and thoughts of the people paying the taxes are not 
fairly represented? Englishmen, no matter how able^ and with whatever 
good intentions, cannot feel as the natives feel, and think as the natives 
think. The co-operation of a sufficient number of intelligent natives in 
all the Councils is an absolute necessity to any satisfactory financial legisla- 
tion. As to any fear of political mischief from taking natives more 
largely into confidence, I think it to be entirely groundless. But, even 
granting that there was any risk, I need simply refer to the Act of 1861, 
in which ample checks and securities are provided. With a sufficiently 
large number of natives, with a corresponding increase in the number of 
non-official English members, there will not only be no risk, but, on the 
contrary, every cause for satisfaction. I may just point out the checks I 
allude to — 

" Provided always, that it shall not be lawful for any Member or Ad- 
ditional Member to introduce, without the previous sanction of the 
Governor-General, any measure affecting — 

" 1. The public debt or public revenues of India ; or by which any 

charge would be imposed on such revenues.* 
" 2. The religion or religious rites and usages of any class of 

Her Majesty's subjects in India ; 
'^ 3; The discipline or maintenance of any part of Her Majesty's 

Military or Naval Forces ; 
"4. The relation of the Government with Foreign Princes or 
States." (Clause 19.) 
Moreover, the Governor-General has his power of veto; and the 

* Though the Indian Councils are thus prohibited from imposing charges on 
Indian revenues without direct legislation, and the sanction of the Governor- General 
first obtained to introduce the measure, the Indian Council in England is, in a very 
anomalous way, left to do what it likes with the revenues of India ; take, for 
instance, the way in which certain charges connected with the Cooper-hill Civil 
Engineering College are put upon Indian revenues, or the large sum of money spent 
upon the India Officei or any other charges that the Indian Council chooses to make. 

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ultimate consent of Her Majesty's Indian Secretary is also necessary. 
(ClaiBses 20 and 21.) 

Clause 22 limits even the power of the Governor-General as to what 
he shall not legislate upon, and Clause 43 repeats, with certain additions, 
as to what the local Council cannot legislate upon except with the sanlction 
of the Governor-General With such checks there can be nothing to fear. 

2nd. Whether decentralization, such as Sir Charles Trevelyan and Sir 
C. Whigfield, and others who agree with them, propose, is necessary or 
not to solve dSjOficulties like the following. Some provinces complain that 
they are taxed more to make up the deficits of others. For instance- 
supposing that the Zemindars of Bengal are right in claiming exemption 
from any additional burden on lands, under the Regulation of 1793, 
"wrould not the scheme of decentralization enable the Bengal Government 
to provide in some other appropriate way for its own wants, instead of the 
Supreme Council being obliged to impose the same taxes upon the other 
parts of India also, as it cannot tax Bengal by itself. 

The distant Presidencies complain that the Supreme Council is not 
able to understand fully their peculiar requirements. With the Governor- 
General having a veto upon all the legislation of the subordinate Govern- 
ments, could not the Supreme Government be better able to attend to 
all Imperial questions without any loss of dignity or power, and yet 
leave fairly upon the heads of the different Presidencies their fair share 
of responsibility? These and similar questions with regard to the 
constitution and work of the Councils in India have to be decided. 

Similar questions have also to be considered with regard to the Indian 
Council in England. First, need there be such a large Council? Secondly, 
need the Council have the work of supervision of everything that is done 
in India ; or will it act merely as an appellant power, to interfere when 
appealed to 1 Is the constitution such as could satisfactorily perform its 
work with the due knowledge and appreciation of the continuqus change 
of conditions going on in India ? And is it not necessary, moreover, that, 
as in the Councils in India, some suitable representation of native .views and 
interests should exist in the India Office? Lastly, is it right that this 
Council should have the power to spend the revenues of India ad it likes, 
without some such open legislation, discussion, and check, as is provided 
for the Councils in India ? From this, I hope it will be sufficiently ap- 
parent that the element of " the head which designs and controls " the 
financial administration of India requires careful consideration. The 
necessity of a fair expression of the views and feelings of the natives has 
another aspect — viz., that with such co-operation Government will be 
very largely relieved of the odium of any dissatisfaction among the natives* 

All the remarks with reference to the necessity of a fair representation 

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of n^tives^ in the L^fnl^i^e CoimcSs ih[^^ equally to all taxation' and 
expenditoro of local fonds. For, besides the Imperial revenne of some 
50,000)OjOO/<^ th^ W^ local fooda raised as foUows :— 

Local Funds. 

Gross Receipts for 1867-8, according to Fa/rt L of Finance and Revenue 
Accounts of India^ published by the Government of Lidia, Calcutta^ 
1870, Account No. 34, Fa^es 116, 118, 120, and 12-2, 

Govwuwent of India ^m X41,028 

Owle,- ,..,.-M-..v... 194,728 

Central Provinces , 173,410 

British BiUTOah.,Mv.......M,t.M... ....... 105,550 

Bengal , 623,722 

N,W, Proyinc^ •..„ 825,007 

Punjanb ^^..^ ,,..... m 326,870 

Madras ...,•*•.• 459,199 

Bombay 1,093,133 

Berars (11 Months of 18e6r67, X130^148) Not given. 

Total £3,842,647 

III. — ^Hand to Execute. 

Tl^is hand la formed by ^11 t)ie different services in the Adniini- 
stratiop. The questions are — 

1^ C^Q t^ese services be fully efficient without a proper proportion 
of patives of talent and integrity in all grades? I consider the question 
here solely with reference to succesafql financial administration, inde- 
pend^tly of it^ very important social and, especially, political bearings, 
of the ciftims of right and justice, and of the great evil of no elders of 
wi34om or e2;perience being prepared among the natives, as all the 
wisdom and experience of English officials is lost to India on their 
retirement, except perhaps of a few, who have conscience enough to feel 
the debt they owe to India, and to do what they can. in England to 
promote its welfare. 

2nd, Can the £!nglisb officials, no matter however clever, manage 
the uatives as well as natives of the same standing, ability, and 
integrity ? A word of persuasion and assurance from a native of official 
position will, in the nature of things, carry more influence than that of an 
Sfiglishmaa. A native will far more easily understand and know how to 
deal with tl^ ways of natives. The assistance, therefore, of a proper pro- 
portion of natives in all departmeBts is a necessity for successful organiza- 
tion ^d wPI'kij^ of devils* Efien now it is the native in many instances 

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who is the real soul of the work, though the credit is all taken by his 
English saperiors. 

Conscientious men, like Sir Henry Ricketts, of the Bangal Civil 
Service, make no secret of such a circumstance, and rightly urge to let 
credit be given to whom it belongs. It is only natural that the English- 
man, with his frequent changes and his ignorance of the people around 
him, is dependent upon, and at the mercy of, his subordinates. If there 
were in the service natives of the same position with himself, he would, 
by comparing notes with them^ be much helped in understanding the 
feelings, views, and idiosyncrasies of natives, which be has no other 
means of leaming. . 

Successful administration, requires complete knowledge, and for such 
knowledge the co-operation of the natives is simply & necessity. 

There is, moreover, the economical, and, therefore, the immediately finan- 
cial, point of view from which-this subject has to be -considered. Supposing 
that the native official was paid as highly as his English colleague, the 
mere fact that all the earnings of the native official remain in the country, 
as he has no remittances to make to a foreign laud for th^ education or 
maintenance of his children or family, or of his savings, is in itself so far 
an economical and, therefore, 4t financial advantage to the country; and it 
is the bounden duty of the English rulers to allow India this economical 
saving, consistently with their political supremacy. In some of the 
services,. such as the Public Works, Telegraph, and Forest, political con- 
siderations have no place; while economy and justice, and the oft-re- 
peated pledges of Parliament, demand that qualified natives -should 
have free and fair admission into all the services. Unless this economical 
saving is allowed to India to a fair extent, all professions of administering 
the finances of India for the good of India cannot but be merely a 
mockery and delusioti. Politically considered, it is not at all im- 
probable that before long the English rulers of India will have some 
troublesome questions to solve, if due foresight is not used in this matter- 

IV. — Prinoiplbs of Design and Execution. 

As a whole the questions are : — 

1. Whether, by the present principles and modes of taxation, the 

burden is equitably distributed over the shoulders of all classes 
of people 1 

2. Whether the present expenditure is not capable of being largely 

curtailed^ and much waste prevented, without impairing the 
efficiency or strength of the English rule ? 

To solve these two important questions it is necessary to work in the 

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way in which the Committee lias already commenced, to examine the 
principle and necessity of each item of receipt and expenditure. Now, 
there is no doubt that the opinion of this governor, or that Revenue 
officer, or such a commander, may be worthy of all weight and respect ; 
but, at the same time, in order that the Committee should arrive at an 
independent judgment of their own, it is necessary that they should not 
be satisfied with mere general opinions of the witnesses, but should require 
a clear statement of some satisfactory proofs upon which those opinions 
are based. I hope, therefore, that mere assertions of officials, that " all is 
right," will not be considered sufficient. For instance, we may take the 
question of the land revenue, which is the very subject the Committee has 
commenced with. There is a variety of land tenures, and each is based 
upon several principles. I take the instance of one of these principles— 
viz., the proportion of the rate of assessment to the income of the 
cultivator, or the produce of the land. 

There are two questions. First, Are the principle or principles of 
the rates sound? and, second, if so, are the rate or rates adopted, such as 
to encourage increase of cultivation, lead to increase of capital, and 
thereby to increase of production and prosperity I 

First take the principles of the rate. 

In Bombay one and the chief principle of the last settlement seems to 
liie to be this. It is illustrated by a table by Captain (now Sir George) 
Wingate and Lieut. Nash. (Bombay " Selection," No. CVII., New Series, 
page 14. See also pages 109 and 110.) 

' The soil is divided from No. 1 to No. 9. The gross produce of soil No. 1 
is supposed, for illustration, to be Rs.l72 4an. for every Rs.lOO of cultiva- 
tion expenses — i.e., Rs.72 4an. is net produce ; and for soil No. 9, the 
gross produce is supposed to be Rs.l27 6an. 3p. for every Rs.lOO of 
cultivation expenses — i.e., Rs.27 6an. 3p. is net produce. The Govern- 
ment assessment is then adjusted as follows : Out of the net produce of 
Rs.27 6an. 3p. of No. 9 soil, the Government rate is, for supposition, 
taken as Rs.5 13an. 4p., leaving to the cultivator Rs.21 San. lip. — i.e., 
something like 75 per cent, of the net produce. But what is proposed to 
be left to the cultivator of No. 1, whose net produce is Rs.72 4an.? One 
would think that, like the rate of the No. 9 soil. Government would take 
one-fourth, or say, Rs.l8, and leave to the cultivator three-fourths, or 
Rs.54. Such, however, is not the case. The cultivator of No. 1 soil 
is also to keep only Rs.21 San. lip., and give up to Government 
Rs.50 llan. Ip. — ^that is. Government takes above two-thirds and the 
cultivator less than one-third ; the principle being that, no matter what 
the net produce for every Rs.lOO invested may be, every cultivator is not 
to have a definite proportion of Ms net produce, but an absolute fixed 

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quantity. This woold be som«thi^ lik^ imposing th^ iRComie-tax upou 
the principle that if one merchant makes a profit of 50/. on an investment 
of 100/., and another of 10/. on the same investment, they are not to pay 
some definite proportion or proportions of their profits ; but if the latti&r 
is to pay 2L oat of 10/., and retain 8/., the former should also retain 8/. 
only, and pay 42/. to Government. I wonder how British merchants and 
manufacturers would like this principle I However, it is not my object 
here to discuss the merit of this principle, but only to state it,, for com- 
parison with that of the other provinces. 

Now take Madras. There the prrnciple is, after allowing for ridges, 
boundaries, unproductive portions of fields, seasons, cultivation expenses, 
&c., to adjust the Qovernment Assessment at two-thirds of the net 
produce on wet or irrigated lands, and a sort of compromise between 
two-thirds of net produce and one-foujrth of gross produce on dry lands; 
the balance of about one-third of the net produce being left to the 
cultivator. (" Madras Selection," No. XIV., of 1869, pages 142—160, 
Settlement of Ghellumbrum and Manargoody Ts^lookas, of South Arcot.) 
Taking Funjaub, the principle of the first settl^nent was on the basis of 
two-thirds of the net produce, but by the revised settlement it is on one- 
half of the net produce for Government. In the N.W. Provinces (Adm. 
Report, '67-'68, page 47) " the standard of assessment is now 55 per 
cent, of the assets, of which 5 per cent, goes for cesses ; the remaining 
45 per cent., after defraying the village expenses, forms the profit of the 

To sum up the whole, I give an extract from a memorandum of the 
India House (Return 75, of 1858.) *^ And in all the improved systems of 
Revenue Administration, of which an account has been given in the pre- 
ceding part of this paper, the object has not been merely to keep the 
Government demand vdthin the limits of a fair renty hut to leave, a large 
portion of the rent io the proprietors. In the settlement of the N.W. 
Provinces, the demand was limited to two-thirds of the amount, which it 
appeared, from the best attainable mformation, that the land could afford 
to pay as rent. The principle which has been laid dowu for the next 
settlement, and acted on wherever settlement has commenced, is still n^ore 
liberal ; the Government demand being fixed at one-half instead of two- 
thirds of tho average net produce — that is, of a fair rent. The same general 
standard has been adopted for guidance in the new settlement of the 
Madras territory. In Bombay no fixed proportion has been kept in view, 
but the object has l>eeu that land should possess a saleable value." (The 
italics are mine.) 

Now, in giving tins extract I have also the object of directing atten- 
tion to the use of the words '*uet prodaee^' aad *'fair rent'' 9^ 

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sjBonymous. Is it so I Is the net produce^ of which one-half is settled as 
Goyernment assessmeat, rent only in the sense in which economists use that 
word, »nd for " leaving a large portion of which " Qovemment claims 
credit of liberality? 

Now to the ncs;Lt question. Taking the absolute amount of the 
net produce, is the portion allowed to the cultivators sufficient, on an 
average, for their year's ordinary wants of common necessaries, and some 
reasonable comforts, together with a saving to face a bad season, or to 
idicrease the capital of the country for increasing production 1 

The test of " the satisfaction of the ryots " is often quoted as a proof 
of soundness. But it requires to be ascertained whether because an 
element like that of fixity of tenure and non-interference fw a long period 
is felt satisfactory, it follows that the other elements or principles of the 
settlement are also necessarily satisfactory or just, even though, as a 
general result, the agriculturists may feel themselves somewhat better off 
than they were before? Or is the fact of such profits as the Bombay 
Presidency had the good fortune to make from the late American war, 
and the improvement of condition by railways, though a cause of satis- 
faction to the cultivators, a proof of the soundness or justness of each 
and all tibe principles adopted in the settlement ? To come to a right 
conclusion, each principle requires to be examined on its own merits, 
without reference to general results ; for, if aU the principles were sound, 
much more satisfactory may be the results. 

The Bombay settlement, as well as that of other parts, is now under 
revision. It is important to ascertain the real present incidence of land 
revenue, and the reasonable increase that may be made, with sufficient 
left to the cultivator to subsist on and to save for increase of capital. I 
am afraid the Bombay re-settlement is not quite reasonable. 

I shall take one or two more instances in connection with land 
revenue. Whether the zemindars of the permanrat settlement can bei. 
taxed for extra cesses has been the subject of much controversy and dis- 
satisfaction, and even up to the present day the India Office is divided 
against itself. Now, as long as mere opinions of this official or that 
Indian Secretary are the sole guides, I do not see how the controversy will 
ever end. It is a simple question of documentary evidence — ^the inter- 
pretation of a regulation. Would it not be the best plan to subject this 
question to the decision of a judicial authority, such as the Privy Council, 
after hearing the arguments of counsel on both sides ? The decision of 
such a tribunal must end the matter. The same course, either on the ori- 
ginal side of the High Court of Biombay, or in the Privy Council, might 
be adopted with regard to the extra anna-cess imposed npon the existing 
Bombay settlements. I believe it is the opinion of many that it was a 

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breach of faith on the part of Government. A decision of a competent 
judicial tribunal would be satisfactory to all parties. 

The prestige of the British name for good faith should never h% in the 
least imperilled, if it is to exert for Government the moral influence it 
possesses, independently of political and other reasons. 

Lastly, in reference to the principles of the land revenue, as a part of 
the whole design, is the burden of taxation on the cultivator of land in an 
equitable proportion with other classes ? Government claims the rights of 
a landlord. Does that mean that Government must have a certain portion 
of the produce, no matter even though the exaction be inequitably higher 
than that from other classes of people ? Or is the Government demand 
upon land to be adjusted on the principle that Government requiring a 
certain revenue, the land shoirtd pay its equitable quota with all other 
industries ? or is it that, because richer interests can resort to agitation, 
and make themselves heard, while the poor labourer and cultivator cannot, 
it is felt easier to squeeze them than the other classes ? 

II. Is the machinery for the collection of the land revenue sufficiently 
economical ? I think the evidence of a person like Dewan Kazi Shaha- 
budin, for the Bombay side, will be valuable; for, as a native revenue official, 
as he once was, he knows the feelings and views of the natives in a way and 
to an extent which it is almost impossible for an English official to acquire. 

After this one instance of the land revenue, I do not think I need go 
into the details of the other items of the Budget further than to say that 
the test of Questions I. and II. under the fourth head has to be rigidly 
applied to all the items ; and to ascertain whether the system of Jveeping 
accounts is such as it should be. I shall take only one more item. The 
salt^ax, especially, requires most anxious consideration. It is the cause 
of the poor, who cannot speak for or help themselves. Is it at all right to 
tax salt ; and, even allowing the necessity, is the incidence of its burden 
on the poor similar to that on the other classes for the share they pay 
towards revenue? 

The salt gross revenue for different parts is as follows for 1869-70 : — 
(Ret c. 213 of 1870.) 

Bengal £2,583,562 

Oudh 1,219 

Central Provinces 115,167 

N. W. Provinces... 488,728 

Punjaub 923,060 

Madras 1,164,736 

Bombay 599,407 

Total 5,875,879 

Per head 




s. d. 


.. 1 ^ 



..0 3 


..0 4 

17,500,000 , 

.. 1 Oi 

23,000,000 . 

.. 1 

14,000,000 . 

.. 10 



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Now, taking the share of the agricnltnral produce which can be con- 
sidered as left to the mass of the poor, agricultural, and other common 
labouring population, to be 20s. a-head, an ordinary Coolie or workman 
pays in his salt some 4 per cent, out of his wretched pittance. But it 
must also be borne in mind that 4 per cent, out of 20s. is far more im« 
portant to the poor man than 10 or 20 per cent, out of the income of the 
richer classes. Taking 25s. a-head, the rate will be 3J per cent 

Of the four elements I have described above, the first three are essen- 
tially questions for Parliament. 

1. It is Parliament alone that can decide what the financial relations 
between England and India should be ; how far the guarantee of England 
can be given for the. alleviation of the burden of the public debt, which is 
the result of English wars in India, or other countries of Asia ; and how 
far the benefit of England's credit and capital can be given to help in the 
restoration of India's prosperity and prevention of famines. 

2. It is Parliament alone that can modify the constitution of the 
Legislative Council and the Indian Council, or give the people of 
India such a fair voice in their own affairs as they are now capable 
of exercising, because these Councils are the creation of an Act of Par- 

3. It is Parliament alone that can insist on the faithful fulfilment of the 
repeated pledges they have given by Acts of Parliament for the admission 
of natives into the various services, according to competence and character, 
and without any regard to caste, creed, colour, or race. . In the Public 
Works Department there is a farce of a regulation to admit natives in 
India on proof of competence; but very good care is taken that natives 
do not get in. On the Bombay side, as far back as 1861, three natives 
proved their competence (and one did the same in 1866), and to my know- 
ledge none of them had found admission into the Engineering Depart- 
ment up to 1868. Whether they have since been admitted I do not 
know, though during the interval dozens of appointments have been given 
every year. English interests exercise such pressure upon the Indian 
Governments, that unless Parliament does its duty and insists that in ac- 
cordance with its pledges, justice shall be done to the children of the soil, 
there is but little hope on that score. 

4. The principles of the whole design of Financial Administration, or of 
its details, will have always, more or less, to be settled and controlled by the 
Indian Governments themselves, according to change of circumstances. The 
best service, therefore, that Parliament can do on this head — and which Par- 
liament alone can do — is to inquire, at certain reasonable intervals — say every 
ten or twelve years — ^how the Indian Governments have discharged their 
trust This simple necessary control of the great Parliament of the 

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Empire will preyent many of those evils whioh freedom from a sense of 
responsibility indaces, and infuse into the Administration all that care and 
forethonght necessary to its success. 
May, 1871. 

After I had posted the foregoing part of this pamphlet from Alex- 
andria, I came across a speech of Lord Mayo, in the Times of Indians 
summary, of 8th April last. I read one paragraph in it with feelings of 
mixed regret and hopefulness ; regret, that one in the position of a Viceroy 
should have put forth what, in my humble opinion, is an erroneous and 
misleading statement; and hopefulness, because now that the Viceroy 
has directed his attention to the all-important subject of the insufficient 
production of the country, he will, I hope, be able to grapple with it, 
investigate its causes and evil consequences, and earnestly endeavour to 
apply suitable remedies. 

I refer here to the paragraph in which his Excellency endeavours to 
refute the assertion that Indian taxation is " crushing." His lordship on 
this point has made several assumptions, which require examination. 
T shall, therefore, first consider whether the conclusion drawn is legitimate, 
and whether all necessary elements of comparison have been taken into 

Last year, in my paper on "The Wants and Means of India,^* 
which was read before the East India Association, a rough estimate was 
given of the total production of India (including opium, salt, minerals, 
manufactures — in short, production of every kind) as about 40s. a-head 
per annum. 

Mr. Grant Duff, in his speech of 24th February last, referred to the 
relative incomes of England and India, and endeavoured to show that while 
the former was estimated at 30^. a-head, the latter was " guessed " as 40s. 
a-head per annum. Now, his lordship the Viceroy quotes Mr. DuflPs 
statement of 40s., and believes that Mr. Duff has good reasons for his 
statement. So that we have it now on the highest authority that the 
total production of India is only 40s. a-head per annum. 

His Excellency the Viceroy, after admitting this fact, compares the 
taxation of India with that of some other countries. In doing this, his 
lordship deducts as land revenue (whether Hghtly or wrongly^ will he seen 
heieofier) the opium, tributes, and other small receipts from Indian taxation, 
and then compares the balance with the taxation of other coantries. 
Being on board a steamer in the Red Sea, I cannot refer to returns to 
see whether his lordship has made any ^milar dedactions from the 

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l»^ication of tlaSe lalter. The resiiit of the cotnpailsoii wotdd afypear to 
t>e that, while India pays only Is. lOd. per head of taxation pet tiniHiin, 
Turkey pays 7s. 9d., Russia 12s. 2d., Spain 18s. 6d., Austria 19s. 7d., 
and Italy 17s. per head per annum. The conolusion drawn is that the 
taxation of India is not *' crushing.*' What idea his lordship attaches to 
the word " crushing ** I cannot say, but his lordship seems to forget the 
veiy first premise-that the total production of the country is admitted to be 
40s. per head. Now, this amount is hardly enough for the bare neoessaries 
of life, much less can it supply any comforts or proride any reserve for 
bad times ; so that, living from hand to mouth, and that on " scanty sub- 
sistence "(in the words of Lord Lawrence), the very touch of famine 
carries away hundreds of thousands. Is not this in itself as '^ crush- 
ing " to any people as it can possibly be ? And yet out of this wretched 
income they have to pay taxation as well. 

His lordship has, moreover, left out a very important element from 
account. He is well aware that, whatever revenue is raised by the other 
countries, for instance, the 70,000,000^. by England, the whole of it 
returns back to the people and remains in the country ; and, therefore, the 
national capital, upon which the production of a country depends, does 
not suffer diminution; while, on' account of India's being subject 
to a foreign rule, out of the 60,000,000/. of revenue raised every year, 
some 12,000,000/., or more, are carried clear away to England, and 
the national capital — or, in other words, its capability of production — is 
continuously diminished year after year. The pressure of taxation, there- 
fore, if proper remedies are not adopted to counteract the above evil, 
must, necessarily, become more and more crushing every year, even 
though the amount of taxation be not increased. It is quite intelligible 
that the English people, with an inc<Mne or production of some 80/. per 
head, aided by or including some 12,000,000/., or more, annually drawn 
from India, may not feel the taxation of 21. lOs. a-head as crushing ; 
Of the nations which his lordship has instanced, having no price of some 
12,000,000/. annually to pay for a foreign rule, and being, most probably, . 
able to produce enough for all their wants, may not feel the 7s. to 
19s. 7d. as crushing ; but, in my humble opinion, every single ounce of 
rice taken from the " scanty subsistence *' of the masses of India is to them 
BO much more starvation, and so much more *' crushing." 

I shall now consider what would have been the fairest way of making 
the comparison of taxation. Every nation has a certain amount 4)f 
income from various sources, such as production of cultivation, 
minerals, farming, manufactures, profits of trade, &c. From such total 
income all its wants are to be sBpplied. A fair comparison as to the 
incidence of taxation will be to see the proportion of the amount which 

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the Government of the country takes for its administration, public debts, 
&c., to the total income. You may call this amount taxation, revenue, or 
anything you like ; and Government may take it in any shape or way 
whatsoever. It is so much taken from the income of the country for the 
purposes of government. In the case of India, whether Government 
takes this amount as land tax, or opium revenue, or in whatever other 
form, does not matter, it is all the same, that out of 'the total income of 
the country Government raises so much revenue for its purposes which 
otherwise would have remained with the people. 

Taking, therefore, this fair test of the incidence of taxation, the 
results will be that England raises 70,000,000/. out of the national 
income of some 900,000,000/. — that is, about 8 per cent., or about 
21. 10s. per head, from an income of about 30Z. per head ; whereas the 
Indian Government raises 50,000,000/. out of a national income of 
300,000,000/. — that is, about 16 per cent., or 6s. 8d. per head, out of an 
income of 40s. per head. 

Had his lordship stated the total national income and population of 
the countries with which he has made the comparison, we would have 
then seen what the per-centage of their revenue to their income was, and 
from how much income per head the people had to pay their 7s. to 19s. 7d. 
per head of taxation, as quoted by his lordship. 

Further, if in consequence of a constant drain from India from its 
poor production, the income of the country continues to diminish, the per- 
centage of taxation to income will be still greater, even though the 
amount of taxation may not increase. But, as we know that the tendency 
of taxation in India has, during the past twelve years, been to go on in- 
creasing every year, the pressure will necessarily become more and more 
oppressive and crushing, unless our rulers by proper means restore India 
to at least a healthy, if not a wealthy, condition. It must, moroever, be 
particularly borne in mind that, while a ton may not be any burden to an 
elephant, a few pounds may crush a child ; that the English nation may, 
from its average income of 30/. a-head, bear with ease a burden of even 
5/. or 10/. of taxation per head, while, to the Tndian nation, 5s. out of 40s. 
may be quite unbearable and crushing. The capacity to bear a burden with 
ease or to be crushed by it, is not to be measured by the per-centage of 
taxation, but by the abundance, or otherwise, of the means or income to 
pay it from. From abundance you may give a large per-centage with 
ease ; from suflSciency, the same burden may be just bearable, or some 
diminution may make it so ; but from insufl&ciency, any burden is so much 

But as matters stand, poor India has to pay not only the same per- 
centage of taxation to its income as in England, but nearly double ; t.f.. 

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while England pays only about 8 J per cent, of its national income for this 
wants of its Government, India has to pay some 16 per cent, of its income 
for the same purpose ; though here that income per head of pbpulatioh. is 
some fifteenth part of that of England, and insufficient in itself for even its 
ordinary wants, leaving alone the extraordinary political necessity to pay a 
foreign country for its rule. ' ' 

I sincerely trust, and very hopefully look forward, that when those in 
whose hands the destiny of India is now placed — such as Mr. Grant Duff i 
the members of the India Office, the Viceroy, and Sir R. Temple- 
understand this great evil, it will not be long before really effectual 
remedies shall be adopted, with the assistance of Parliament. Parliament 
being the fountain of all power, and as the Indian Governmeht can only act 
as Parliament directs, it becomes its bounden duty to God and man to lay 
down the great principles of a just, efficient, and beneficent government 
for the administration of India, and to see from time to time to thdir 
being acted on. 

In stating the Viceroy's views, I am obliged to trust to memory, but 
I hope I have not mis-stated them. Now that we have the testimony of 
the two latest Viceroys — Lord Lawrence stating that the mass of the 
people live on scanty subsistence, and Lord Mayo believing Mr. Grant 
Duff's statement of the income of India being only 4()s. a-head per annum 
as well founded — the Select Committee may not think it necessary to ask for 
any returns, but take the fact as proved. Perhaps the time thus saved to 
the Select Committee may be well employed in ascertaining the best 
remedies for such a deplorable state of affairs, and it may not seem very 
reasonable to request the Committee to put the India Office to the trouble 
of making any returns on this subject. But I hope that, though the 
Select Committee may not now think it necessary to ask for any returns 
for its own use, it will recommend — or the Indian Government will, of its 
own accord, require — the return of a table of total income of the country 
as an essential part of the annual Administration Reports of all the different 
provinces, and embody it in the return now annually publishedj showing 
the moral and material progress. The Houses of Parliament and the 
English and the Indian public will then be able to see every year clearly 
what the material condition of India really is, and how far measures are 
adopted to improve the present state of matters. To prepare returns of 
the total production of the country, there are ample materials in the 
tables required by the Calcutta Statistical Committee in the Administration 
Reports. All that is necessary is simple calculation. For instance, one 
table gives the total acreage of cultivated land in each district ; another 
table gives the acreage of the different crops grown ; a third table gives 
the produce per acre of each kind of crop ; a fourth table gives the prices 


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of the produce in the markets of tbe districts. Now it is easy to see that^ 
with these materials, Ute yalae of the total produce of all the districts of 
a proriiice can be eiasilj worked out. 

An erroneous principle has crept into the Administration Reports, I 
have already once referred to it in connection with the question of prices. 
I point it out here again, so that it may be avoided in this important 
calculation. In tbe above tables of the Administration Reports averages 
are taken, for instance, of the prices of all the districts of the province, by 
adding up tbe prices of the different districts and dividing the total by 
the number of districts. This is evidently absurd, for one district may 
have produced a million of tons of rice, and may sell it at R.1 a- 
roaund, and another may have produced only a thousand tons, and the 
price there may be Rs.5 a-mauad. It will be incorrect to make the 
average price as Rs.B per mannd, when it will actually be only a little 
more than R.I. In the same manner the produce per acre may be very 
large in one place where probably the acreage under cultivation also is 
very large, while in another district the cultivated acreage may be small 
and the produce per acre may be small also. If the average is taken by 
simply adding up the produce per acre of each district, and dividing by 
the number of districts, the total of the produce thus obtained will be 
less than the actual quantity. Avoiding this mistake in the principle of 
taking averages, from the above-mentioned tables can be calculated the 
total production of cultivated land. Then there are other sources of 
income to be added, such as stock, opium, salt, minerals, manufactures, 
fisheries, &c. The Reports already have the figures for most of these 
items, and thus the grand total of income available for human consump- 
tion and saving may be ascertained. Such a return, with two others I 
shall refer to hereafter for every province, would be of great importance. 

If this calculation of the total income of the country is made out 
erery year, we shall have the most direct evidence of the actual condition 
of the people, instead of being obliged to draw inferences indirectly from 
the complicated and misleading phenomena of differences of prices or 

Except Bengal, all the provinces have the means of obtaining the 
necessary materials for the different tables required by the Statistical 
Committee. In Bengal, the perpetual settlement, I think, makes it 
unnecessary for the Revenue Department to ascertain the actual extent 
of the whole cultivation, and of the different crops. But for such an 
important purpose, 1 have no doubt, the Bengal Government will devise 
some means to procure the necessary information. In the Report for 
1869-70, they have, I think, intimated their intention to do what they can. 

Not commanding the time and the means necessary for minute calcu- 

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latiotts, I have made a roagh. estimate, and I think that if averages are 
worked out by the statistical staff at the India Office or at Calcutta, the 
result will be very nearly what Mr. Duff has stated, and which his Excel- 
lency the Viceroy adopts — viz., a total income of about 40s. a-head per 
annum. From this, the European residents and the richer classes of 
natives above the common labourer get a larger proportion, and the por- 
tion remaining for the mass of the people must, therefore, be much less. 

It must aiso be remembered that this average of 40s. pef head is for 
the whole of India ; but for the different Presidencies or Provinces, each- 
of which is as large and as populous as some of the countries of Europe, 
the proportion of distribution of this total production is very different. 
For instance, in Bombay the total production, if accurately worked out, 
maj be found to be 100s. a-head, Punjaub perhaps about 45s. to 50s. a-head; 
consequently the other provinces will have under 40s. a-head. Then, again, 
there is another drawback — viz., the want of cheap communication — by 
which even this insufiBcient ppoduction of 45s. a-head is not fully utilized, 
so a« to allow the plenty of one Presidency to be available for the population 
of another. Not only does this difficulty of distribution exist between 
different Presidencies, but even between parts of the same province. I 
shall give just one instance — ^that of the Central Provinces. While at 
Raipore and Belaspore the price of rice at the end of 1867-8 was R.l 
for a maund of 801bs., at Hosungabad it was Rs.5 per maund, at Bai- 
tool it was Rs.4 per maund, at Jubbulpore Rs.8 12 ans. per maund. In 
this way, while in one district a part of the produce was perhaps rotting 
OP being wasted, other districts were suffering from scarcity. 

Upon the whole, I think the average income per head of the poop 
libouring population of all the provinces (except Bombay and Punjaub) 
will be found hardly above 20s. a-head per annum, or, may be, from 20s. 
to 25s. 

This can be tested directly if the Administration Reports give, in addi- 
tion to the return for the total income of the province, a second return^ 
Fomething like the following (I believe they have all the requisite mate- 
rials, or can obtain them) : — The number of people living upon un- 
skilled labour, and rates of wages, with details ; the number of 
adults (male and female) capable of work, say between twenty-one and 
fifty ; the number of youths, say from twelve to twenty-one years of age 
(male and female); the number of the old incapable of work, or, say, 
above fafty years of age ; the number of children under twelve years of 
age ; the average wage earned by males and females of the above different 
classifications (calculating the average on the correct principle of taking 
the number of labourers earning each rate into account) ; the number of 
the sick and infirm; and the number of days during the year that the 

H 2 

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different rates of wages are earned. From these materials it will be easy 
to ascertain the real average income of the nnskilled labourer, who forms 
the majority of the population, and upon whose labour depends the sub- 
sistence of the nation. 1 hope the India Office will order such returns to 
be prepared for the Select Committee. It will be a direct proof of the 
' actual condition of the mass of the people of each Presidency, and will 
be a great help to the Committee. 

I may now give a few particulars, which are at hand, of the cost of 
livfng, for the bare necessaries of life. 

The Bombay Report for 1867-68 gives Rs.41 ISans. 10 p. as the 
average cost for diet per prisoner, and Rs.5 lOans. lip. for clothing and 
bedding. The N.W. Provinces Report gives the average cost for central 
gaols — ^for diet, Rs.l8 1 an. 8f p.; for clothing and bedding, Rs. 3 5 ans. 1 Jp. 
For divisional gaols — for diet, Rs.24 6 ans. lOJ p. ; and clothing and bed- 
ding, Rs.4 Sans. 4^ p. ; and for district gaols — for diet, Rs. 15 8 ans. 17|p.; 
and for clothing and bedding, Rs.S 2 ans. 6 p. In the Central Provinces, 
the cost for diet is Rs.25|, and for clothing and bedding Rs.5^ ; and in 
the Punjaub — for diet, Rs.23 6 ans. ; for clothing and bedding, 
Es.31 13 ans. 6 p. 

This is what the State thinks it necessary to give to criminals as bare 
necessaries of life. There may be some little allowance to be made for the 
proportion of females and the young being smaller in a prison than in the 
outside world. Making this allowance, can it be said that the labourer 
gets the necessaries of life to this extent? To this has to be added some cost 
for lodging, something for reasonable social wants, and something to save^ 
for a bad day or old age. Do the people get this ? 

Surgeon S. B. Partridge, Government Medical Inspector of Emi^ 
grants, in a statement dated Calcutta, 26th March, 1870,* proposes the 
following as a scale of diet, to supply the necessary ingredients of nourish- 
ment, for the emigrant coolies during their voyage, living in a state of 
quietude: — 

Rice Diet for One Man. 


Rice , 20 

Dhal 6 

Preserved Mutton 2 5 

Vegetables 4 27 

Ghee 1 

Mustard Oil 5 

Salt 1 

Total 35 27 

For Flour Diet. 




Preserved Mutton 



2 5 

4 27 
1 5 

Mustard Oil 





29 77 

• The Indian Economist of 15th October, 1870 ; "Statistical Reporter," p. 45. 

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This is absolutely necessary to supply the necessary ingredients of 
nitrogen and carbon; not the slightest luxury — no sugar, tea, or any 
little enjoyment of life — but simple animal subsistence. 

From the above data, returns can be worked out, at the prices of 
particular districts and provinces, of the absolute necessaries of life, which . 
will show whether a province produces enough for these, and for all its 
political, social, economical, and administrative wants. With these three 
returns— first, of the total income per head per annum ; secondly, the 
average per head of the earnings of the mass of the labouring population ; 
and, thirdly, the average actual requirements per head for all the different 
absolutely necessary wants of the labouring population — the ruler of every 
province will be able to give a clear picture of the actual material con- 
dition of his charge, and will get any credit he may deserve for the 
improvements made by him. I hope the India Office will place these 
three returns before the Select Committee. Complacent assertions of 
officials that all are happy and prospering can be had in any quantity ; but 
unless the test of actual facts is applied by such returns, these assertions 
are not only worth nothing, but are positively mischievous, as they mis^ 
lead Parliament and the English public, who, believing such statements^ 
become indifferent to India, to be roused only by some great calamity, 
either physical or political. 

If the facts brought to light by these returns show that the people are 
really suffering from insufficiency to supply their absolute wants for 
ordinary healthy human life, and that, therefore, having no reserve either 
of strength or means, or no intelligence, they are easily swept away by 
hundreds of thousands in time of scarcity, what a responsibility lies upon 
our British rulers to remedy this wretchedness ! Remedy it they couM^ if 
they but chose to set about their work with a due sense of their responsi- 
bility, and with earnestness and determination. India needs the help of 
their capital and credit, needs reduction in expenditure, needs an efficient 
and economical administration, of which native co-operation must form 
an essential, and not an incidental element, needs a wise and fair adjust- 
ment of her fiuancial relations with England, and, finally and imperatively, 
a wise and rapid diffusion of the blessings of Education, 

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IN THE Chair. 

Sir Battle Frere's Address on " The Mecms of Ascertaining PvMio 
Opinion in India.^ 

The Chairman. — Gentlemen : It is always a most satisfactory thing 
• when an important subject falls into competent hands fur disoussioo, and 
I think we may congratulate ourselves this evening on such a circum- 
stance, inasmuch as probably one of the most important problems affect- 
iog the well-being of our great Indian Empire is about to be handled, 
and, I hope, brought to a satisfactory solution, by one who is well known 
to you all as one of the most popular and able administrators of 
our Indian Empire. My only dissatisfaction on this occasion is to find 
-myself where I am. I have no qualification which entitles me to 
preside except that of having the honour to be one of the Mem- 
bers of the Council of the East India Association. Having been 
called upon to do so, I have undertaken that post merely as a matter of 
duty, feeling convinced that there are many here present who would be 
much more at home in this chair, and much better able to perform the 
duties appertaining to it. I now call upon Sir Bartie Frere to address 
the meeting. 

Sir Babtle Fbere. — I cannot pretend in anything I could say to 
solve — as your Chairman proposes — any question connected with the 
ijubject before us this evening. I can only offer for your consideration a 
very few of the many points which strike one as soon as we begin to 
consider the question of public opinion with reference to India ; and to 
4)xpress a ho|)e that the subject, which I know has received the atten- 
tion of a great many of the wisest thinkers, and of those best entitled 
to instruct the public, being once started, may lead to its being more 
fully discussed ; because I feel convinced that there is no subject con- 
nected with India which more imperatively demands careful considera- 
tion, and requires being brought from the region of discussion into the 
region of action. 

The first question that suggest.s itself as soon as one presumes to 
talk about public opinion in India, is the question which is very often 
asked, and almost always asked in a tone which rather implies an 
inevitable negative answer, " Is there such a thing as public opinion in 
India r' Now I always feel inclined to answer this question after the 

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Scotch fashion, with another question, and to ask whether people in 
India think and feel and speak to one another like men in other parts 
of the world ; because, supposing there is no essential difference between 
the mental constitution and faculties and habits of intercommunication 
of men in India and of men in other parts of the world, T hold that it 
follows inevitably that there must be such a thing as public opinion in 
that great countiy. But let us consider for a moment, What do we 
mean when we talk of public opinion ? It is clearly not the same as 
pvhliithed' optnioriy though often confounded with it 3 for there is public 
opinion, often very strong in expression and action, where there can be 
no publication, as, to take a familiar instance, in the case of a great 
public school, and many large and influential bodies among ourselves 
who have, as we say, " no recognised organ of public opinion,'* no 
means of making the public opinion which exists within the body 
known to those outside it by means of publication through a periodical 
])ress. Without tlotaining you with any attempt at elaborate definition, 
I would simply say that what I mean, and what I think may be accepted 
as a sufficiently accumte pro^ctieal definition for the moment, is, cmy 
opinion which w vx)t personal nor peculiar, and which is shared and more 
or less expressed by large bodies of men. In this sense it exists, of 
course, in India as it exists everywhere else in the civilised wcrld. The 
next question that suggests itself is, " In what does public opinion in 
India differ from public opinion in other parts of the world ]" Let us 
take, as the strongest comparison possible, perhaps, our own country. 
I should say that the difference consbted mainly in Indian public 
opinion being less articulate, and moi-e i-arely expressed in a way which 
will i-each English ears. That is the only difference, as far as I am 
aware, between public opinion in India and public opinion in this 
country. And let us consider that even in this country it is no very 
eai^y thing to ari'ive at an accurate conception of what public opinion on 
any given question is. We have, {)erhaps, in England, the best possible 
means with which any country in the world is blessed of learning what 
is the public opinion, as far as it can be arrived at, through the medium 
of a thoroughly well-instiucted, independent, able, and numerous Press, 
and by a perfect network of magistracy and clergy and private and 
public officials all over the country, through whom public opinion may 
be gathered by anybody who makes it his business to ascertain it, as all 
our statesmen necessarily do. And yet I would beg you to mark in 
passing how frequently it happens even in this country, with all our ad- 
vantages, that not only single statesmen, but large bodies of statesmen, 
find themselves occasionally quite mistaken as to the true bearing of 
public opinion on {nirticular questions of national [lolicy. We have had 

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instances. of the kind within our own memories, where whole parties in 
the State, and the Press, with very few exceptions, found themselves in 
error till the nation was appealed to, and then they discovered that 
there had been a strcmg underciiirent of public opinion which had 
found no adequate expression, which was only audible to those who had 
the niost delicate ear and feeling, as it were, for the pulse of the people, 
but which was ultimately expressed with a strength of will which left 
no question as to what the opinion of the public really was. If such a 
difiiculty exists in England, how much more must it be the case in 

x/ India, where our means of arriving at public opinion are very much 

more limited ; and how very much greater must be the dangers of igno- 
rance of public opinion in that country than they are in this ! I would 
only, refer to one; or two examples, which will be in the memory 
of all who are at all connected with India. I would refer to 
the Affghan War, which was undertaken, no doubt, mainly through a 
very mistaken impressicm as to the bearing of a great political event (the 
advance of Russia) upon public opinion in India. If we had known public 
opinion then as we know it now, I do not think we should have rushed 
so precipitately into a war which cost us so much both in money and in 
credit, and in what is dearer than either, in the lives and characters of 
many of our great men. Still more recently we have had the Indian 
Mutiny. There were men (we have some of them here among us this 
day) who knew what was at the time the public opinion of the great 
jnasses of India on some of the disturbing questions which led to the 
mutiny. But the majority of the governing body in India was not 
aware what that public opinion would hav^ said if it-s sentiments had 
;been heard, and the consequence was that we were taken, as you all 
know, very much by surprise ; and, what is worse, when the danger was 

y for the time overcome, we were much inclined to attribute the mutiny 

to other than the true causes. And this brings me to the next question 
(and I am obliged to touch very briefly upon all these questions), one 
which I am sorry to say is very frequently asked, and asked generally in 
rather a cynical tone, " Who cares for public opinion in India — and 
how have we got on so long and so well in India without any special 
reference to public opiiiion 1 " People who ask this question are very 
^ apt to quote the well known dictum of the Duke of Wellington, that he 

never met people who were so completely philosophical about all questions 
relating to their government as the people of India ; and they tell yog 
broadly that public opinion is not a thing to be much cared for by the 
men who are trusted with the administration of India. Now this is a 
feeling which, with more or less distinctness, is very apt to find expression 
iiji these days ; but I need not tell you that this was not the feeling which 

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actuated the old Indians of former days. And let us for the moment 
consider how the India of former days differed from the India of the 
present day. In the first place it was the India of perpetual conquests. 
There is nobody who has served in India during the first half of this 
century who does not recollect that no period of ten years elapsed 
without some conquest or extension of dominion, which brought with it 
generally, as a consequence, peace to a country which had been for a long 
time the theatre of more or less disorder and war, and for the moment 
brought also lightened taxation. Now, these were marks of an era which 
has now passed away. I would ask you to reflect on the men who were 
during that time the great actors in the history of India, and see if you 
can find any of those who were eminent and were known as wise and 
able administrators who disregarded the public opinion of the natives. 
I have only to remind you of a very few of the names of men of this 
class, and you will at once recognise that they were as a body 
distinguished, whatever may have been their other differences, by the 
respect they paid and the weight they attributed to the public 
opinion of the people over whom they ruled. There was Sir John 
Malcolm, whose writings are to this day a perfect mine of practical 
knowledge on the principles of sound administration in India. There 
were the Munros, the Elphinstones, Metcalf, Sir Henry Lawrence, and 
Sir George Clerk, of Umballa : any man who was in India in his time will 
recollect what an immense force he represented at the time when he was 
almost the only Englishman within fifty or a hundred miles of his camp ; 
and that force mainly consisted in his power of estimating the opinion of 
the natives about him. Then there was Sutherland, in Rajpootana, of 
whom we have Lord Ellenborough's testimgny that he looked upon 
Sutherland's being struck down by illness as equivalent to a loss of 
10,000 men. He said he considered him as worth 10,000 men in keeping 
Rajpootana in order. That was one of those old Indians whose main 
characteristic was that he felt the pulse of the people among whom he 
dwelt. Then there were the Skinners, and Outram, and Edwards, 
whose great characteristic was like that of the other men who have been 
named, that they thoroughly understood by a sort of sympathy with the 
people what they felt and what they were going to do. And above all, 
there is, perhaps, the most remarkable instance of any, that of Sir 
Charles Napier, remarkable most especially in this, that arriving in India 
long after the age at which men are most capable of receiving vivid im- 
pressions, he, by his intuitive knowledge of mankind, at once grasped 
the secret of managing the people by attempting to understand the 
feelings which actuated them. His feeling, and that of all the men I 
have named, on that subject \yas that he who would, as one of a very, very 


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small minority, iiile in a foreign country, must, above all things, under- 
stand the feelings and opinions of the people of that countiy. 

How does modern India differ from the old India I have described ? 
I am the last man in tlie world to undervalue the great improvements 
which liave taken place in India, in almost every branch of administia- 
tion ; but let us mark well the differences which distinguish it from the 
India of our early youth. First of all, you have a completely new 
generation of people. They are a people who have not known generally 
what it is to be visited with a war, what it is to suffer from the presence 
of a hostile enemy harrying their country. Most of these things they 
may have heard from their fathers and grandfathers, but they have lost 
the sense of the presence of the evil, from which the swords of our 
immediate predecessors, and of some among ourselves, helped to deliver 
their fathei-s. Then they are a people, the leaders of thought among 
whom have an English education, such as many of our own children 
might envy. Well-educated young Indians in these days have been 
taught all that we would teach our own children of the great masters of 
English thought and English literature. I do not look upon it as a 
matter of any particular glory tliat we should have laid open to them 
these things. I think it would have been to our eternal shame had we 
not done so ; but when we have put into their hands the weapon, we 
must not wonder that they should use it, and that they should look upon 
themselves — as I think most thoughtful men among us would wish 
them to do— as having the same rights and being entitled to the same 
])rivileges as all the other subjects of the British Sovereign. This is a 
change which we would do well to bear in mind, because it is one of 
immense importance. And coupled with this there is a systim of 
government which necessarily involves much more desk work, much 
more of every kind of sedentary work, and gives less opportunity for 
mixing with the natives. There i^ at the same time easier inter- 
course with England, which none of us would grudge our countrymen 
the benefit of, much more rapid communication in every way by letter 
and in person with our home fiiends ; and, as a consequence, those 
people among whom our fellow-servants are labouring in India get a 
less amount of personal attention and thought than was the custom in 
old times. This is the inevitable consequence, and we might as well try 
to make the sun go back in its course as to alter this condition of things. 
But still let us not forget that it exists, and, moreover, that the members 
of the administration, and the people whose affairs are administered, all 
share in the high pressure at which everything is working in this gene- 
ration ; they, as well as we, feel the accelerated pulse which is coursing 
through the veins of the body |K>]itic in every direction, and all these 

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changes make, perhaps, a greater impreatton in India than similar 
changes have done in this country, because we have come upon them 
gradually, whereas to India every change has come suddenly — what to 
us has been the work of two or three centuries has oooie upon them in 
half a generation. Then, in the midst of all these changes, comes the 
pressure of financial difficulties. I will not say a word now as to how 
far these might have been avoided, or how far they were inevib)i.ble ; but 
the fact remains, that at this present moment there are financuil diffi- 
culties of a very serious character oppressing the minds of all our Indian 
statesmen, and that this is the time when, as all history teaches u{^ 
governments have most reason to beware of how they walk, and to look 
warily to the feelings of those over whom they rule. Let us only turn 
to the pages of our own history, and consider how^ all the time that 
great opinions were growing and changing, and new forces were being 
developed, all through the Tudor age, things went on pretty smoothly 
and without any great difficulty, up to the time when Charles I. found 
himst'lf in financial difficulties, which obliged him to resort to new 
taxation. That, as all history tells us, in our own country and every- 
where else, is the time when the difficulties of a government increase, 
and render it absolutely necessary that they should consider the temper 
of the people over whom they rule. However despotic they may be, 
whatever may be their i)Ower of imposing taxes, yet let governments 
take warning from the example of our own Charles I., from the example 
of Louis XVI. among our neighbours, and, in our own time, examples 
such as that of the Austrian Empire, and let them remember that, after 
all, whatever may be the other difficulties of a government, financial 
difficulties are -the real strain which tests the power of a government 
over its subjects. 

I will merely remind you, that in what I am now saying to you, 
however little we may hear the subject generally discussed, T am not 
speaking at all on a subject which is new to those who have thought 
much about the condition of India ; in fact 1 believe there is nothing 
which I could say to you this evening which has not been already 
thought of, and a great deal of it put upon record, by wiser and abler 
men in other parts of England and India. But for the most part their 
thoughts have not found public expression, and it is because I believe 
till they find public expression, and till the matter comes to be faced and 
discussed, there is a very serious danger in reticence, that I venture now 
to biing the subject prominently to your notice. 

I will just read you a few extracts from the evidence that was lately 
given by a man who has perhaps a better knowledge of the natives than 
almost any existing servant of the Indian Government —Sir Donald 

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Macleod — who, as you know, has only very lately returned to this country, 
and who, after doing such excellent service in the Punjaub, has come to 
this country with the reputation of knowing the natives better than 
almost any man in the Punjaub; and this is what he stated only a 
very short time ago publicly. He was asked before the Committee which 
is now sitting on the Finances of India, "whether, supposing a larger 
revenue were required from the Punjaub, he would recommend an in- 
crease of the duty on salt V He replied : " I think it might be realised. 
But before expressing a decided opinion on a point of that kind I should 
like to consult the natives more than we do generally." He was then 
asked again on the same subject, and he replied : " I would be very 
cautious about expressing a definitive opinion about any tax until I had 
had an opportunity of discussing with natives regarding it." Further, 
he was asked : " You think it would be unwise, generally, to propose any 
new tax or to increase any existing tax until the natives have been 
more fully consulted ?' He replied : " I think, myself, it is most desir- 
able before anything is done, for we really do not know what would be 
the. result, unless one did consult them.'' Let me remind you that these 
are not opinions expressed by any mere doctrinaire man of the desk, but 
they are opinions expressed by a man who has been all his life in prac- 
tical hard work among the natives of the Punjaub, and he is a man who 
has proved throughout the stress of the mutiny that he is not made of 
metal to give way lightly before any form of physical force. I used 
to hear from him almost every day at the time when the fate of Delhi 
hung in the balance, and I can testify that at that time there was not a 
man in the whole of India who possessed a more balanced courage, and 
a more determined feeling that he would fight it out to the end, than 
the man who expresses these opinions now, and expresses them as the 
matured opinions of his whole lifetime. I may add that I believe those 
opinions are shared by many of his companions, many of those who 
have worked with him, in that great dependency which he has so well 

Let us, then, take it for granted, and I think we are entitled to do 
so, that there is such a thing as public opinion in India, and that it is of 
great importance to know what it says, and let us consider for a moment 
how we are to learn what it says. What are the channels through 
which we might expect to learn something about public opinion in India ] 
First of all, of course, there are what are called the usual channels of 
public opinion, and no man in this room is more alive to the value of 
the Periodical Press than I am. With regard to its growth in India, 1 
have known it from the days when, with the exception of one or two 
papers in Calcutta, the whole of the editorial staff of India A^as com; 

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posed, without exception, of amateurs ; and all the newspaper writing 
was amateur newspaper writing. I have watched its growth till it has l^ 
become a great power in the State, and I will venture to say that there 
i", no press out of London which is conducted with greater ability, with 
greater independence, and, on the whole, with greater regard to the' 
public interests than the Press of India j but at the same time let nic 
remind you that the Press of India represents the opinions of a mere 
fraction of the masses of India. It represents, generally, the opinion of 
very able and skilful men, who gather as far as they can the opinions of 
those around them ; but in that vast country their views are neces- 
sarily limited to the powers of human vision, and they find themselves 
looking into blank space when they look more than a few score of miles 
from the place where their Press is situated ; and with regard to the 
opinions of the great mass of the cnltivatore and of the industrial 
population of India, you may say that it is a mere reflection of distant 
light which reaches the best-informed of our English editors of Indian 
newspapers. What they collect they make the best use of, but it is 
difficult for them to collect m6re than a very small portion of what we 
want to know. But then we are told that there is a very large and 
increasing Native Press. When I recollect the time when there was 
only a single native newspaper in Botnbiiy, when there were only one or 
two in Calcutta, and when I think of these days, when there are in the 
city of Bombay alone two or three daily papers, written with very con- 
siderable ability, in Guzeratti, and one or two in Mahratti, besides a 
j)erfect cloud of bi-weekly and weekly newspapers, I still feel that we 
have only got at the opinions of a small section of the natives who are 
able to read those newspapers, and who are able to write in them ; that 
we are still as far as ever from learning what the great body of the people 
think and feel on the subjects that concern them ; and that we are as far 
almost as we were before from the means of reaching them or instruct- 
ing them through the Press. I have not time to describe mapy 
other means by which public opinion is reached in India, though they 
are all of them of more or less value. There are the planters and public 
officers who are dispersed through the country ; there are the mission- 
aries, who, in some way, learn more than any other class ; and there are 
tlie public servants all over the countiy, whose business it is to know 
something about the feelings of the people over whom they riile; but, 
notwithstanding all this, there remains the fact that, with regard to 
the great masses "of the peoplie, the Government of India does know, and 
can know, but very imperfectly what the people wish and think ahdfeeL 
I will now very briefly sketch out a plan ' by which I think it is 
quite piossible tl^t we may arjive more nearly at something that ia 

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needed as a means of ascertaining the public opinion of the great body 
of the people in India, and I will then leave what I have to say on the 
subject for consideration and discussion by other gentlemen; merely 
saying that if they can suggest any better means than those which I 
would venture to lay before them, I would be the first to hail the 

I would first of all ask you to begin with me at the beginning, as it 
were, of Indian social organisation, and to consider what may be called 
the unit of Indian administration — viz., the Indian village, which, as 
you all know, is a very much more compact and defined body than what 
we know as a village in this country. As anybody who reads Sir Henry 
Maine's work or any other work on the subject may learn, the Indian 
village embodies something much more perfect and more thoroughly 
organised than those parishes to which Mr. Goschen so wisely wishes to 
bring us back in this country. And let us note, with regard to the 
whole of this subject, that in so large a country as India, with so many 
diversities of race, and of social condition and political organisation, no 
uniform plan can possibly answer for the whole country, and we must 
be content, as far as one can, to attain a uniform end by very diversified- 
means. And, secondly, let us bear in mind that we should not wait till 
we have discovered such means in every province ; it will be a great gain, 
if we can hit on the means of ascertaining the real public opinion of the 
mass of the population in only a few tens of the two hundred millions 
of people in India. Do not let us be deterred by difficulties in one 
province, if we can learn what we want to know in another. And, 
tliiixlly, let us bear in mind that in any given province imperfect means 
are better than none at all. If we can only leara the real public 
opinion of a single class — say of the chiefs or supeiior landholders or 
the city traders — it will be a great gain, even if we find it difficult to 
get at the opinions of the bulk of the common people. Now let us 
apply those principles to the consideration of the subject with regard to 
one portion of India. I give you these suggestions merely as relating 
to the portion with which I am best acquainted; but I may say in 
passing that I know of very little difficulty which could be experienced 
in applying a similar plan to other parts of India ; but, for the reasons 
which I have just given you, I would ask you not to throw the sugges- 
tions aside because you do not find any one system applicable to the 
whole of India. 

Now let us consider the village councils, which exist almost every- 
where in their ancient form, and in somewhat of their ancient power. 
In many respects, as I said before, they may be regarded as the 
equivalents of such a<»3erablies as our forefathers used to have in their 

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parishes, and I trust that no feelings regarding the shortcomings of 
select vestries will induce you to think lightly of the efficiency of the 
Indian village council. Those councils exist now, and exist in some 
considerable vigour, and I believe it would be only necessary to recognise 
them and give them a status in our administrative machinery. They 
might consist, as they do at present, uf the head-man, of the village 
artificers, of the village offiuer?, of the rent-free and tax-free holders of 
land, and all holders of land whose names are separately entered as 
separate proprietors in the books of the village. I would let them meet 
as at present whenever the head-man called them together, either of his 
own accord or at the instance of the district officer. It is of great 
importance not to attempt to introduce too much of form or system 
among, them, and I do not know that any formal record of their pro- 
ceedings should be required, except when they had a presentment to 
make^; in such case it might be signed by the head-man or notary on 
behalf of the village, and be sent up in the form of a memorandum or 
petition to the district officer, in whatever might be the recognised 
form of addressing the superior to whom it should be transmitted. Once 
a-year there should be a more formal meeting, and a record of the pro- 
ceedings, in which they should be required to report briefly the state and 
requirements (if any) of the village public works and institutions, 
appending accounts of the moneys at their disposal, and nominating 
those who should represent the village in the district council whenever 
it might be called together. This is the most essential feature of their 
constitution, that they should be ah elective body, which should send up 
representatives to a district council. I would not attempt too strict a 
definition of the subjects or extent of theit powers. In almost all 
villages there are roads to be cleared, travellers' rest-sheds and some- 
times village- walls and other public buildings to be repaired, schools and 
police to be maintained, all of which have to be paid for in money or 
labour by the village. A yearly discussion and presentment on these 
subjects might revive the interest which the -village officials and com- 
munities have always taken in them, but which there se^ns reason to 
fear may be crushed out under the multiplicity of circulars and 
scattered reports, and of perpetual external meddling, which it is the 
tendency of our system of departmental centralisation to foster. As 
regards the authority under which the village council should be con- 
stituted and act, there is none more potent in the eyes of the natives 
themselves than the immemorial usage which can be pleaded for that as 
well as almost every other village institution. The difficulty is to 
connect such an institution with our legal and official system without 
crushing or paralysin;; it by the rigid formalities into which it is the 

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tendency of our principles to become fossilised. Where there is a- 
periodical settlement of the land revenue, I would make the constitu- 
tion and powers of the village council a necessary and essential part of 
the settling officei's* proceedings, and I would prescribe by law that he 
should leave on record a list of those who were privileged to have a 
voice in the council, specifying the documents they should be required 
to send in at their annual meetings. I have little doubt but that when 
the significance of this document is understood, the right to be named in 
it will be valued much in the same light as the possession of a field or 
other title to village status. It should be subject to whatever revision 
and authorisation the law may prescribe for the final proceedings of the 
settlement officer. 

As I said before, the chief significance of such a village council — in 
respect to ascertaining public opinion — would be that it would form the 
body to select representatives to state the opinions of their fellow 
villagers in the distiict councils. Those distnct councils would cor- 
respond as regards relative area and population to our county meetings 
here. Each village might send up one or two delegates, who would 
ordinarily be the head-man and notary public, but there should be 
nothing to prevent a village from sending any other representatives they 
might prefer. The very large villages, and towns under the size of a 
large city, might be empowered to send more than two representatives, in 
fixed proportion of so many representatives to so many thousand 
inhabitants. In addition to these village representatives, all the smaller 
rent-free holders possessing one or more villages (the inamdars and 
jageerdars) should have seats of right. The ordinary meetings should 
be annual, with special summonses for special purposes. They should be 
presided over by the district native officer, who should see that their 
proceedings were recorded, and a copy forwarded to superior authority. 
To this body I would entrust unreservedly the management of all 
district funds for roads, schools, and police, and I would consult them on 
all matters affecting or relating to the district. I do not mean that I would 
put the initiative or the control of everything entirely in their hands, 
but I would ponder well their advice, and hear their comments on every 
njeasure affecting them, and, above all, on every proposed re-settlement 
of the land, or revision of other items of revenue. I believe those would 
be functions which would give the district councils a very considerable 
amount of employment, and they would be functions which might be 
exercised with the greatest possible benefit to the Government. They 
wbuld also elect members to serve in the provincial councils. 

Similar in position to the district councils would be the larger 
municipalities, exclusive of cities of the first-cl^ss, whose municipalities 

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would rank with provincial councils. Such legal authorisatuui as 
might be required for the proceedings of these district councils ;i»igfct bte 
given in the Acts of Legislature relating to land settlements. 

We now come to the provincial organisation. The provinc'al 
councils might consist of one or more representatives from each district 
council, and from each great city municipality not included in a districti; 
all chiefs and larger jageerdars ; all collectors, and magistrates, and 
political agents; and selected officers from the public works, educational, 
railway, and canal departments. They should be summoned annuallyr, 
or oftener if necessary, and should be presided over by a revenue 6r 
political officer of the highest grade, si^ch as the revenue commissioned 
in Bombay, or a member of the revenue board, or a selected commis- 
sioner of revenue in otheir parts of India. In apportioning the areas 
which such provincial councils should represent, geographical, or ethno- 
logical, or linguistic, and also fiscal considerations, would have to bid 
taken into account. Your pi*ovincial council should as nearly as possible 
represent men of like speech, and of pretty uniform circumstances is 
regards their geographical position. For example, I would say in the 
Western Presidency you might have five. You would require one fbt 
Scinde, one for Guzerat, one for the Canarese- speaking districts of the 
Southern Mahratta Country, and two for the Mahratta-speaking 
districts (one for the table land above the Ghauts* and the other for the 
coast districts and Bombay). All of these, with the exception of the last 
two, would represent a population speaking a distinct language; and 
when I remind you that each council would represent a population <jf 
from three to five millions of people, I do not think you will say that tlile 
area chosen is unreasonably small. These provincial councils I would 
consult unreservedly regarding the apportionment of all Imperial funds 
allotted to the province, and I would adopt no great measure affecting 
the mswses of the people until it had been thoroughly discussed in 
these assemblies. To them I would also entrust the selection iof a 
limited number of representatives to be summoned to the local legis lative j 
council, whei*e their functions would be like those of thie other members, 
not merely consultative or suggestive, but legislative. It is not 
necessary that I should for the present go beyond these provincial 
councils, because anything further relates to legislative matters, re- 
garding which a very effectual commencement has been already made. : 

I have now asked you .to consider— (1) the village organisation, 
(2) the county organisation, and (3) the provincial organisation. The 
provincial organisation is the one which at this present moment I con- 
sider the most important :of all, because, as you are aware, a policy of 
what is called decentialisation has been adopted by the Government jd^ 


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India, after very full experience of the unworkable nature <jf tbe cen- 
tralised policy which we had previously attempted to carry out ; and the 
policy which is now adopted must, I feel cottvinced, depend for its 
success on the power of making use of sueh authority as the Govern- 
ment of India may choose to delegate to the Local Governments, and the 
power of making use of that authority in a manner consonant to the 
wishes of the great masses of the people. I believe that the policy which 
has been lately inaugurated has in it, if it is carried out to its full 
extent, and to the full meaning of those who have adopted it and in- 
troduced it, the seeds of the greatest possible benefit to India, and that 
it may enable us to do what we might otherwise find to be a very 
difficult task— to hold under contentment a population which it would 
be utterly impossible to govern through the medium of any such cen- 
tralised policy as we have attempted to carry out during the past ten or 
twenty years, by a system of depaHmental organisation. That organi- 
sation cuts straight through all the natural organisation of villages, 
districts, and every other division which has arisen naturally, and has 
grown with the growth of the people, and has lasted for so many 
nturies. But while I wouM not discuss at any length any possible 
extensions of the Local Legislative Councils, I will merely say, in pass- 
ing, that if, let us say, for example, two elected members from each 
provincial division — making, say, in Western India, ten in all — were sent 
up to the Local Legislative Council, I feel confident that they would in 
every way greatly strengthen the Council, and give additional weight to 
all its legislative proceedings. This, of course, would require an Act of 
Parliament; all the other measures which I have mentioned might be 
carried out by the Government of India and by the Local Governments, 
merely as matters of internal regulation and order, though, of course, it 
would be very desirable, and necessary ultimately, to give legislative 
sanction — such sanction as can be given in India — to the measure. 

1 will now ask you to spare me a very few minutes while I antici- 
pate a few of the objections which seem to me to lie upon the surface, 
and which may be, and I am pretty confident would be, started to such 
a scheme as I have proposed. First of all it would be said, " This is 
the representative government with which we are finding fault in every 
part of our colonies." I have not time to describe, and you, I dare 
say, have not patience to listen to any desciiption of the pix)cess by 
which representative government, which in our childhood was looked on 
as one of the most excellent features of our English Constitution, has 
come to be a by-word, as applied to the colonies ; but I will merely 
remind you of this fact, that what is called representative government 
too frequently means simply putting into the hands of the multitude the 

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means of governing the property whicfc they do not possess, and the 
intelligence which they themselves ought to possess, but of which they 
do not always give evidence in their proceedings; and that representative 
government which represents merely numbers, and gives no adequate 
representation of property and intelligence, is not in any true sense of 
the word representative government at all. But this desciiption in no 
way applies to such councils as 1 have ventured to propose; they would 
be in a very high degree truly representative, and as sucli would possess 
a value which I am old-fashioned enough to think belongs to all really 
representative institutions. 

Then there is another objection which would be sure to be taken by 
most Englishmen, and that is, that " any system of the kind would be 
contrary to the genius of the natives of India ;" but I do not think 
that is an objection which would be taken by anybody who really knows 
the customs and understands the genius of the natives of India, because 
he would see that the system is in reality nothing more than a develop- 
ment of the old Indian system of open durbars and open cntcherry. If 
you went into any native state and asked what were the cliaTacterisncs of 
any good government that they may have had among themselves, they 
would always tell you that " it was a system o»f open durbar," in which 
the ruler sat and gave the opportunity for the expression of public 
opinion, to which all petitioners had more or less access ; and in like 
manner, if you asked any native who were the best European rulers he 
ever knew, he would tell you, among other characteristics of anybody 
he would name, that he was a man who would always sit regularly as 
his time allowed " in open cutchen y ;" that is to say, he sat where he 
could be seen, and where he could see and hear the people over whom 
he ruled. Anybody who has watched the working of native society 
will see that its genius is one of representation — not, I will adu'it. 

representation by election under Reform Acts, but representation 
generally, by castes, and trades, and professions, every class of the com- 
munity being represented; and that where there is any difficulty, 
anything to be laid before the Government, anything to be discussed 
among themselves — a fellow-citizen to be punished, or a fellow-citizen to 
be rewarded — there is always a public meeting of the caste, the village, or 
the district ; and this is an expression, it seems to me, of the genius of 
the people as unmistakable as that which is arrived at by our Saxon 
method of gathering together in assemblies of different kinds, to vote by 
tribes, or by hundreds, or by shires. 

Then it will be said that " a despotic government has no need of 
consulting public opinion, and India must be governed despotically by 
personal individual authority." Now to this i)it)po8ition I beg to enter 

I 2 

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my most emphatic protesfc. Time will not allow tis to discuss whether 
Csesarism is a good system or a bad system, but, be it good or bad, it is 
the CsesaFy the true despot, who most requires to know public opinion ; 
he is powerful only so far as he comprehends it. I would only ask yoii, 
as time does not allow an argument on this subject, to run over in yoitr 
minds all the modem despots of whom you may bare known something, 
or of whom yon may have heard something. Take a roan like Rnnjeet 
Sing.' I ask any one who has served in the Punjaub what the state of 
things in the Punjaub would have been if Runjeet Sing had not been 
the most able feeler of the pulse of bis people in the Punjaub, the best 
acquainted with the public opinion of his people ? Take Dost Ma- 
homed. Did not Dost Mahomed^ in his own person and in his own 
mind represent most clearly and powerfully the best features of the 
Aifghan mind? Take, again, Mehemet Ali, a man who built up a 
despotism for himself, who ruled in peace and in war with distinguished 
success, and who left a kingdom to his successor — what was the secret 
of his success as a despot ? Simply that by the intuition of genius he 
underetood the public opinion of the people with whom he had to deal, 
and took very good care to con&ult those who best knew the feelings of 
every class about him. Whether it was the Fellahs, or the Oopts, or 
the Armenians, or the Greeks, or any foreigners, be always took care to 
have about him people who could tell him what was the public opinion 
of every class in his dominions. And, to pass over all others, I would 
ask you, what was the secret of the success of the most able Csesars we 
have known in modem days, the late Emperor of Russia or the ex- 
Emperor of the French? Was it not that, whatever were the merits or 
demerits of their government, they knew their people, and they knew 
their feelings accurately? In the more recent of these two cases espe- 
cially we can see that Caesar succeeded as long as he did understand 
correctly public opinion, and he failed when he had not the means of 
ascertaining it. Those are only a few instances, but I beg you to think 
over the subject, and to reflect whether it is, not the true despot, the 
•personal ruler, who needs more than othera to know accurately the 
public opinion of the people over whom he rules. And if this be the 
case with such great men as those I have named, *how much more 
necessary must such knowledge be to men who are at least inferior to 
them in being strangers and foreigners in the lands over which they ai-e 
called to rule! 

Then it will be said : " Such councils as you pr(^se to have would 
degenerate into mere debating societies, 'and you will never get the real 
opinions of the natives." To this also I would beg, from my own ex- 
-peiieAce, to enter my most emphatic contradiction. I have seen both 

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m Calcutta and in Bombay the very feeble tentative measure s which we^ ^ 
have already tried there in the shape of councils, in which a few natives 
sit for legislative purposes, and I can state that, whether we got little or. 
much of the real opinions of the gentlemen who were my colleagues in 
those assemblies, we always got verj- much more than we should hav<> 
known in any other way ; and, as far as I was associated with them, I 
can testify that at no time of my life, at no period of my official con- 
nection with India, did I get more valuable information as to the real- 
wants and feelings of the people than I got from my colleagues who sat 
with me in the councils of India in Bombay. 

Then it may be said that " councils of this kind may fail from having 
no real authority." Now, I would beg you to observe that every one 
of them will have the power of advising regarding tlie expenditure of 
very considerable sums of money — the expenditure of everything con- 
nected with roads, schools, police, and so on ; they will have the power 
of advising, and that is a power which, as you know, in this country even, 
with our own rather proud and touchy population, who are used to other 
modes of expressing their opinion, is not without its weight and value. 
You will find that the presentments of your grand juries, the presentments 
of your magistrates in sessions, and the resolutions of public meetings, in 
this country, abounding as* it does in other and weightier means of ex- 
pressing public opinion, are never without their weight ; and something 
very much more will be the weight attributed to the presentments of 
such councils as I have attempted to describe. They would have the 
power of advising regarding the expenditure of very considerable sums 
of money in various ways, and, I believe, they would have ample means 
of employment to preserve them from rusting or from throwing up their 
duties in disgust at having nothing to do ; and when, as it must happen 
occasionally, you have to consult them with regard to the imposition of 
new taxes, they will feel then that they have a real potential voice in 
the government of their fellow-men. What other good may result inci^ 
dentally from the power they will have of stating their grievances and 
Baying what they feel, and what ^ould be the value of such incidental 
results, I need not tell any gentleman here present \vho knows practi- 
.cally how fond the native of India, as the native of every other countiy, 
is of being heard, and of having the power to state his grievance. 

Now, I feel that I have trespassed too long upon your time. I 
have attempted very briefly and imjperfectly to shadow forth , a. scheme 
of organisation which, I trust, may be elaborated so as to assist in what 
I consider to be one of the greatest fiscal reforms which has ever been 
a;ttempted in India — viz., the step towards what is called the decentml- 
isation of the finances of India — ^but which I should rather call the peifect 

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centralisation through local government — which has been already taken 
by the present Viceroy ; and I trust that the subject — which, imperfectly 
as I have attempted to deal with it, is one of the greatest importance — may 
be discussed by other gentlemen, and thought over, and with some 
benefit to that India for the good government of which we are all so 

Chairman. — As there is still some time left, if any Member feels 
inclined to offer any observations, perhaps he will kindly favour U8 with 

Mr. William Tayler. — Sir and Gentlemen : I need hardly say that I 
most cordially concur in the sentiment expressed by Sir Bartle Frere, 
that this subject is one of the most important that can be offered to the 
consideration of those who have any regard for, or take any interest in, 
the administration of India. Before I offer the very few remarks that 
time will allow me to make, I will say one word on a point which, 
though of yery little real importance, may, if misapprehended, lead to 
confusion. I refer to the definition of " public opinion " with which 
Sir Bartle Frere favoured us. I cannot quite agree in that definition. 
In asking the question, ** Is there public opinion in India ? " and then 
answering it by saying, "Are not the people of India the same in cha- 
racter and constitution and nature as other people 1^ I do not think that 
the right point has been exactly hit, because I do not think that when 
we talk of " public opinion " we mean the opinion which remains in tlie 
breasts of people unexpressed; but when we say there is " public opinion " 
in England, and not " public opinion " in India, nobody for a moment 
supposes that the people of India do not think, and think very deeply, 
and feel very deeply, upon all matters that concern them — we merely 
mean that there is no expression of opinion, " Public opinion," in 
common parlance, I do not think means the opinion of the public, but 
opinion which is 'publicly expressed, and, taking it to be so, we come to 
the very root of the matter — viz , that the people of India have really 
no representation wluit&ver ! However deeply they may think, however 
deeply they may feel, there is no conceivable organisation or means by 
which that opinion can be laid before the authorities. This is perhaps a 
very nice and nari*ow philological distinction, but it may be of some 
use to bear it in mind when we are considering the subject in all its 
bearings. Passing over this trifling matter, I would only observe, as 
time is very short, that the state of India in i-espect to administration 
is unhappily this: where we naturally look for sympathy there is 
antipatliy ; where we look for co-operation there is antagonism ; where 
we might fairly expect trust and confidence there is suspicion and dis- 
trust. This is a most formidable and perilous condition for any country 

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to be in, and, looking round me and watcMng the opinions and the 
actions of Government and the authorities, whether in India or in 
England, I see no hope, as matters stand at present, of this miserable 
state of things being rectified except by some such meuns as those now 
suggested by Sir Bartle Frere. If we take a slight retrospect of our 
Indian administration, and look at the relationship which has hitherto 
existed between England and India, it has been very much like that 
between a kind but rather rough and careless parent, and an unruly, 
sharp, but somewhat ricketty boy. The father cuffs the boy on the 
head, gives him his orders, stuffs him with whatever he thinks whole-: 
some, whether suited to his constitution or not, and carries out a rough 
paternal despotism, without dreaming of opposition or cavil ; but the 
boy, somehow or other, picks up scraps of information, and all of a 
sudden the father finds that the lubberly and obedient boy has grown 
into an educated, thinking young man. That passive submission to the 
father^s will which led the boy to obey his fiither's orders with- 
out questioning has passed away ; the boy has learned to think, 
and with thought he has learned to criticise his father's actions 
and scrutinise his commands. That is the position now of India. 
For a hundred years we have dealt with India as we would 
with a submissive and unquestioning child. We have knocked the 
people about, we have given them our orders and presciibed their action, 
we have substituted Perigord pie and truffles in the place of the rice and 
split peas to which their rude stomachs were accustomed ; we have 
given them laws unsuited to their habits, we have graciously presented 
them with a burdensome and crushing taxation, and we have never 
thought it worth while to ask the opinion of one single member of the 
native community, except those three or four honoumble, high-minded, 
and bejewelled rajahs who have of late years been seated as aristocratic 
dummies in the Council ! What is the consequence I We are at a dead- 
lock. We find now that when we impose a tax there is, as Mr. Grant 
Duff dramatically says, a '* shriek " resounding from one end of the 
country to the other. I did not, until this evening, exactly know 
whether it was quite consistent with Parliamentary etiquette to refer to 
evidence given before a Committee of the House of Commons while the 
Committee was still sitting ; and as I have rather an exceptional horror 
in regard to that mysterious crime called " contempt of court," I had 
hitherto refrained from any allusion to the Committee now engaged in 
Its important inquiries ; but, as Sir Bartle Freie has set me the example, 
I cannot refrain from saying that I was exceedingly amused (I will not 
use a harsher term) at reading the evidence of two ex-governors of 
Bengal in relation to the salt-tax. Without the slightest hesitation or 

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anjtliih^ to suggest the idea that they were not fully acquainted With 
the innermost recesses of the natives' hearts, what they said almost 
amounted to this, that the poorer natives were perfectly satisfied, nay, 
that they rather liked the salt-tax than otherwise ! They certainly said, 
with the utmost confidence, each confirming the other, that they had 
never heard the natives complain of the salt-tax, and, as it is an old 
tax, that they really are perfectly satisfied, and, indeed, prepared, if 
necessary, to give a little more than they did before. No doubt these 
opinions were conscientiously nttered ; but it is a fact, almost 
amounting to absurdity, that English gentlemen in high position, 
who never in their lives, perhaps, had s})oken to one of these poor un- 
fortuniate natives, who, uut of a miserable pittance of twenty shillings 
a-year, are now called upon to pay a considerable amount in taxation for 
one of the necessaries of life^that gentlemen who have never taken the 
slightest pains to organise the means of ascertaining their feelings, should 
say (as thry would of a half starved Bengalee bullock, which makes no 
complaint, though he has earned the yoke until his shoulders are raw) 
that because they have paid this tax without complaint out of their 
miserable pittance, that, therefore, they are perfectly contented with it. 
I can only say, it may be true that the people are so used to that tax, 
so adeustomed to be galled and scriewed, that they accept it as a neces^ 
sary evil ; but for a gentleman in high position in England to venture 
before b, committee of the House of Commons, to say that he knows the 
feelings of 150,000,000 of people regarding a tax affecting their miserable 
Subsistence, and that they are contented with that tax, is a palpable 
absurdity, which only shows how blind he is to the real position of 
the country. And this brings me to another grave and important 
question. Looking at the present state of things, looking at that large 
body of natives whom we have generously and wisely educated, and ^ho 
are on a par as regards intellect with Englishmen, we must see that we 
must henceforth not only organise some appropriate means of ascertain- 
ing the feelings and opinions of the country, but we mvst be prepared 
to give to those natives whom we ourselves have educated and prepared 
for the task, a fair and fitting share in the administration of the 
ountry. For the accomplishment of the first appeal, the scheme 
which Sir Bartle Frere has proposed appears to me to be one containing 
^leihents of the most perfect success. It would be utterly impossible for 
any one who does not know all the different classes of Indian society to 
say that any particular scheme would be entirely successful. We must 
be at first contented with a gradual organisation; we must devise and 
Carry out some machinery by which, as suggested by Sir Bartle Frere, 
we really can, before we enter upon any new taxation or measure 

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affecting the interests of millions of people, ascertain what are the feel- 
ings, what are even the weaknesses^ of those people for whom we are legis- 
lating. I do not enter now upon that consideration. I confess I have 
very great apprehensions in regard to the feasibility of carrying out that 
suggested organisation in practice. J do not say the difficulties are 
insuperable, but I believe the effect of our rule during the last century > 
has been this, that a spirit of submission and subservienc}'^, I may say 
almost of toadyism, has so pervaded the whole race of the people, and we 
are now so universally regarded as despots, that the real difficulty of 
working a system of county, provincial, and village consultation will be 
the difficulty of persuading any single native that we invite his honest 
and independent opinion. We have already seen something of these 
tentative councils. A gentleman is now present who, in a most amusing 
book, " The Chronicles of Budgepore," has told us what sort of councils 
those are where the collector, or magistrate, or judge, chooses three or 
four respectable, but very remarkable, flunkies, just to attend upon his 
council and to echo his words, and the difficulty is enhanced by the fact 
that in the present day the English officials — who, after all, would have 
t<) organise and carry out the system — are not the men who are acquainted 
with the natives, nor men who w6uld be likely to encourage any familiar 
or kindly intercourse with them. It may be an ungracious prediction, 
but I fear this will be a difficulty. But, whatever may be the difficulty 
a;^prehended, it is our duty to make the attempt, and I have no doubt 
whatever, that, unless that atteuipt is very soon made, the result will be 
not only great disaster, but terrible peril to the Government. We see 
the Government now at a dead-lock. We see every single measure 
that is brought forward criticised, and criticised most ably, not 
by the English Press ; only, but by the Native Press and the 
native community. I can safely say I do not think there are 
ten men in India or England who can bring forward so acute 
and so searching an analysis of our position and of our measures 
as Mr. Dadabhai Naoroji, our honorary secretary; whose absence 
we now so much lament ; and when we see that such intellect has now 
been brought forward by our own education, when we see the large 
body of honourable, aspiring, and intt41ectual young men pi-epared for 
action by the education which we have placed within their reach, w* 
must feel that the time has arrived when we must deliver over a certain 
share of the government into the hands of those instruments which we 
have thus fitted for the task. That, I think, will be the eventual result 
of the scheme now proposed by Sir Bartle Frere. We shall have 
healthy public opinion, from the cottage to the council, if we can but 
induce the natives geneially to give us their independent sentiment. 

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Then, and then only, shall we safely legislate for the country ; then 
only shall we establish a link in the chain of sympathy, from the lowest 
peasant up to the highest official in the country. 

Mr. FoGGO. — I should like to be allowed to say one word. It is to 
express a hope that the observations of Sir Bartle Frere may take some 
pi actical shape, and may lead to some practical result, and that they may 
have some effect in bringing about a change in that high-handed mode of 
levying both imperial and municipal taxation which has prevailed during 
the last few years in India. It may be said that suCh a. system as Sir 
Bartle Frere has marked out is contrary to the genius of the people of 
India ; but I am quite sure that it would be much more contrary to 
their genius or to the genius of any people to be called on from time to 
time to pay such taxes as feast-taxes or marriage-taxes, without being 
consulted as to their wishes regarding them. 

ChaikmAn. — Perhaps Mr. Erskine will favour the meeting with a 
few observations. 

Mr. Erskine. — I should have been very happy to do so, and I dare 
say I may be able to do so on some future occasion, if I have the oppor- 
tunity ; but at present, as regards the more practical suggestions which 
Sir Bartle Frere has made, I do not think I could enter upon them with 
the hope of adhering very strictly to the point, because I am not quite 
certain that I understand the nature of his proposals in regard to these 
councils. If his address is to be printed, as one of his addresses on a former 
occasion was, and if we have the opportunity of discussing the matter again, 
I think very likely I should avail myself of the opportunity of saying 
a few words. There is another reason which leads me to think that I 
might, perhaps, with more satisfaction to myself, say a few words later, 
and that is that I see here a good many of our Indian fellow-subjects, 
and it appears to me that this is especially a question on which we 
should follow the example of Sir Donald Macleod and other admini- 
strators, in heai-ing, in the first instance, what is to be ^d by our native 
friends themselves, with the hope of learning something from them, in- 
stead of laying down our own opinions too strongly. 

Chairman. — Perhaps it will be consonant with the desire of the 
meeting that we should postpone the discussion to a future day. 

Mr. Tayler. — In the course of next month I am to read a paper very 
much to the same effect, though, perhaps, going a little beyond it — a 
paper on the possibility of admitting the natives into the councils of 
India. We might, perhaps, then discuss the whole question together. 

Mr. Pazi Shahabudin. — The discussion on Sir Bartle Frere*s address 
would quite take up the time of one meeting, I think. 

Mr. Harryohund Chintamon. — The subject which has been treated 

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by Sir Bartle Frere in so masterly a manner is a subject of so much 
impoi-tance, that unless the native members had first the opportunity of 
seeing Sir Bartle Frere's paper in print, I do not tbink they would be 
able properly to deal with the points he raises. 

On the motion of the Chairman, seconded by Mr. Kazi Shahabudin, 
it was resolved that the discussion be adjourned till Sir Bartle Frere's 
address shall have been printed and circulated amongst the members. 

Chairman. — It only remains for me to congratulate the meeting on 
the highly instructive address which we have heard from Sir Bartle Frere 
this evening. I am sure we are under the greatest obligation to him for 
having initiated a discussion on so important and interesting a subject — 
doubly and trebly so when we remember the position which he holds as 
a member of the Council of India, and, therefore, himself in a position 
in some measure to carry out the views he has so ably expressed. I am 
sure it is most encouraging in many ways to the East India Association 
that a man like Sir Bartle Frere, holding the position that he does, 
should come forward to discuss questions of this nature. It must 
tend very much to elevate the character of this society in this 
country. I consider that the East India Association, though now in its 
infancy, is eminently calculated to assist in that which Sir Bartle Frere 
suggests the means of doing in his address — viz., enabling the natives of 
India to make known their real sentiments in this country. It is gratifying 
to find that an able administrator like Sir Donald Macleod should, as 
the result of his experience, think it necessary to consult the natives of 
India, especially in the Punjaub, amongst whom he has so long ruled 
successfully, before he ventures to initiate any new measure of taxa- 
tion. I think that one fact speaks volumes for the success of our 
endeavours to raise the natives of India up to our own standard. It 
shows that there does exist among them a public opinion, to which we 
find it necessaiy to pay some sort of submission. I now call upon you 
to vote your cordial thanks to Sir Bartle Frere for the able and interest- 
ing address which he has given. 

Colonel French having seconded the motion, it was passed unani- 

A vote of thanks was passed to the Chairman. 

A vote of thanks was passed to the Society of Arts for the use of 
their rooms. 

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For the Adjourned Discussion on the Address read by Sir Bartle Frere, 
G.CSJ.f K.C.B,, on " The Means of Ascertaining Public Opinion in 

IN THE Chair. 

The Chairman, in opening the proceedings, which at that period 
were but thinly attended, remarked that the members attended under 
father disadvantageous circumstances, the notice summoning the meet- 
ing having been rather short — a fact which, no doubt, in a great degree 
accounted for the limited attendance. Besides this it was a " Govern- 
ment night*' in the House of Commons, and it no doubt prevented 
many members of Parliament from attending the meeting. Still, it was 
possible that some might come at a later period of the evening ; but as 
the subject was of far too great importance to be passed over hurriedly, he 
would take the sense of the meeting whether the debate should be 
adjourned to a period when there would be a chance of a larger 

Colonel Kennedy. — I cannot allow this meeting to separate without 
expressing the cordial feeling which I share with Sir Bartle Frere on 
this important subject. It is a topic of the utmost interest to all 
concerned in the affairs of India, and to me, who have given the subject 
considerable thought for fifty years of my life, it would be a great pity if 
the matter were debated and settled by so small a meeting as has gathered 
here to-night. The best possible time should be chosen, and exertions 
made to gather a large meeting, so that all interested in the proper 
Government of India may attend when Sir Bartle Frere's suggestions 
are discussed. 

Colonel French said he should second the motion for adjournment, 
because many Members of Parliament would attend if the House of 
Commons were not sitting ; and it would be a pity if the subject did not 
receive the fullest discussion, 

Mr. Prichard. — But if we adjourn the subject now it may happen 
that we shall never have an opportunity to discuss it, for we are already 
late in the session, and a short adjournment would not be likely to bring 
more members. The question may well be left entirely to the judgment 
of Sir Bartle Frere ; if he desires to carry on the discussion now, let us 
proceed, but if he thinks it would be better to adjourn, let us postpone 
for a time the further consideration of the subject he has brought before 

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lis. Personally, I confess I am in favour of carrying on the meeting, 
for at the jconclusion we can still adjourn, and be no worse off than before. 

The Chairman said the majority of those present were evidently 
'unwilling to adjourn without a debate, and probably more members 
would arrive as the hour advanced. Besides, as Mr. Prichard remarked, 
there would be nothing to prevent the debate from another adjournment. 

Sir Bartle Frere said he was quite in the hands of the meeting, 
and was willing either to proceed or to postpone the discussion, according 
to the convenience of the members. He was afraid that they could not 
take the limited attendance as a sign of acquiescence in the suggestions 
he had made. It was one of those subjects which could not be too fully 
discussed, though he quite agreed with Mr. Pritchard in the remark that 
there was danger that in postponing the debate it might probably never 
take place at all. Enough were certainly present to greatly aid in the 
solution of the question ; and there were many in the hall who were able 
to give a very valuable opinion upon the subject. Perhaps the better 
course would, therefore, be, to hear what those present had to say, and 
then to postpone the further consideration of the subject to a more 
convenient season. 

The Chairmak, in opening the adjourned debate, said : The Secretary 
has placed in my hands a paper which he seems to think will interest the 
meeting, as bearing immediately upon the subject we are met to discuss, 
and with your permission I will read it : — 

" Sir William Muir, speaking on the subject of the Local Bates 
(North- West Provinces) Bill, in the Legislative Council assembled at 
Government House, Allahabad, April 6, 1871, made the following 
remarks : * I submit to your Excellency's consideration that, for the 
satisfactory working of the decentralisation scheme, a local financial 
council would be most useful. And why, my lord, should there not be a 
local legislative council also ? We have all the elements for it here. 
Besides- official members, there are many independent native gentlemen 
well fitted to aid in such a council. It is true that, compared with the 
presidency towns, the non-official European element is small ; but even 
from these, worthy representatives might no doubt be found. Such a 
local council would, I submit, be better fitted than the Imperial Legis- 
lature for discussing and settling local measures like this Bill — chowkee- 
daree arrangements, municipal measures, and such like matters. With 
a local council such measures would be discussed in committee, would be 
debated in open council ; the measures and the reasons for them would 
become locally known, would be taken up by the native as well as the 
European press, and would thus become familiar to the community. In 
short, they would acquire what, I submit, they have not now, a popular 

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aspect. My lord, it is my constant, my earnest endeavour and desire to 
lead the people to administer their own affairs. In all my circuits it is 
one of the first things I seek to impress upon the municipal committees, 
that self-government is one grand object of our municipal institutions. 
And they are beginning to respond. I am convinced that no measure 
would tend more directly to foster this spirit of independent action than 
a well-selected. legislative council, with representative men seen and felt 
to be debating on questions affecting their own people. And who, my 
lord, would be better qualified for effective local legislation ? Wants and 
wishes, and, it may be, prejudices, all bearing upon local legislation, are, 
surely, best known to the inhabitants of the province. Here, also, would 
be best known the capacities and requirements of the Administration ; as 
the crew of a ship best know what their own vessel can perform — ^when 
to loosen this cord, when to tighten that ; when to crowd sail, and when 
to take it in — so the local council would be best qualified to watch the 
progress and course of the local administration, and to shape their 
measures accordingly. I know, my lord, that the proposal is not one 
at present in favour, but my conviction is that the constitution of such a 
council is simply a question of time, and I feel that I merely discharge 
a duty to the provinces over which I am placed by your Excellency in 
submitting thus openly my opinion, in the hope that such expression of 
my views may lead to the earlier consummation of a measure so much to 
be desired.' His Excellency the Viceroy and Governor-General remarked, 
with reference to this suggestion : * I will only add one word more, and 
that is to express my great satisfaction at the opinions enunciated by the 
Lieutenant-Governor in regard to local committees ; that is to say, with 
regard to the assistance they may receive from the natives of the country 
ias to the management of their affairs. I had the satisfaction of men- 
tioning the other day how the Lieutenant-Governor of a neighbouring 
province had pushed on that good work. I believe the Lieutenant- 
Governor of the North-West has done no less than Sir Donald McLeod 
in this respect, and 1 believe that no man can devote his time or his 
labour to a work that will be so certain to effect a more immediate result 
than the development of those institutions which have always, and in 
every country, formed the germ of good government.' " 
I think nothing could be more apropos to the question we have in 
hand, or more encouraging to those who share Sir Bartle Frere's 
opinions in the scheme which he so ably and lucidly put before us at the 
last meeting. In fact. Sir Bartle Frere's proposition seems to have been, 
in a measure, anticipated by Sir William Muir in the speech I have just 
quoted ; and it forms a very good basis on which to commence our evening's 
discussion. I hope some of our native friends whom I see present will 

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not be backward in favouring us with their views on this important 

Mr. Forsyth. — I have just been counting the persons at present in 
the room, and I find we have about the number which constitutes a 
" House " in another place, and therefore I think we ought not to post- 
pone the discussion. You know that in the House to which I allude, if 
forty members can be got together to discuss so very insignificant a sub- 
ject as any matter which affects the interests of India, it is considered 
that a great deal has been done. The forty men " in another place" 
differ from the forty gathered here to-night in one important particular ; 
for it is not too much to say that every man here, in debating the affairs 
of India, knows what he is talking about, and has sound experience to 
support his opinions. I am sure I shall be borne out by the native 
gentlemen present, when I say that to our fellow-subjects in India there 
is probably no subject which more warmly engages the feelings and 
sympathies of their hearts than the one which has been introduced by 
. Sir Bartle Frere— viz., the calling in of the native opinion to assist in 
governing the country. Perhaps it would be more satisfactory to the 
meeting if I confined my remarks to that part of the country in which I 
have laboured the best years of my life — the Punjab — ^which, as you 
know, acquired the character of being possessed of as much " go " as 
any part of India. The subject now before the Association has been 
one very much spoken of by the chiefs of the Punjab ; and a paper was 
put forward long ago setting forth their claims. In respect to Sir Bartle 
Frere's paper, I observe that in meeting the first question which would 
naturally be asked in considering his scheme, " Is there such a thing as 
public opinion in India at all ? " he put before us the formidable dictum 
of the Duke of Wellington, whose opinions are very difficult to gainsay. 
But fortunately the Duke did not command in the Punjab, and I have 
therefore less diffidence in declaring, on behalf of the natives of that 
province, that a strong and distinct public opinion does exist. Num- 
berless instances could be given in support of this statement. In 
1869, when Mr. Wilson passed through the North- West Provinces 
to inquire into the best means of raising money to meet the lia- 
bilities of the Government, his avowed object was to ascertain whether 
a licence-tax could be imposed on the population. He passed up 
to Lahore and down again, and though only in the Punjab less 
than a month, in the course of that time he succeeded in acquir- 
ing an excellent estimate of what the genuine opinion of the whole 
people was in respect to indirect taxation. This was not the result of 
elaborate despatches, or of long leading articles, or of the "coaching" 
up by the clever "leaders of public opinion," as they are called in 

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England, but it was the strong expression of a general wish on the part 
of the people. I can speak from experience, for I was a Commissioner 
at the time, and I know how the natives came foi*ward to express their 
common conviction. There could not be a stronger proof of the exist- 
ence of public opinion than that. A year or two afterwards this system 
of indirect taxation was considered not to be quite what ought to be in 
operation. And so the licence-tax was imposed ; and in this we called 
in public opinion to help us in a very efficient way. The people were 
collected, and they were asked how they thought the taxation could best 
be imposed. The result was that the licence-tax was imposed on the 
people by general consent, and I don't think the percentage of injustice 
or inequality of distribution was anything which could be considered 
appreciable ; and wherever it was discovered it was at once redressed by 
the simple expression of feeling by the people themselves. Here, then, 
is another instance where a strong public opinion helped the Government 
in a most critical part of the administration — the collection of taxes. 
Many public officers have taken some trouble for years past to fairly weigh- 
this question, and I know that great objections may be raised to a reali- 
sation of such a scheme as is now put before us. There are men who are 
strongly opposed to it, arid it is well to think out their objections. In 
this light there was great advantage in adjourning the debate on Sir 
Bartle Frere's address, for it affi)rded us the opportunity of consulting 
the opinions of other people. Since Sir Bartle- Frere's address was 
given, I have conversed with several old Indians on this topic, and the 
first objection they make is, "Why can't you let things alone?" And 
they urge that things went on very well before these new opinions came 
into vogue. This remark has a good old Tory ring about it, but* the 
answer to it is that things cannot be as they used to be in India, because 
India is now no more the India which existed before the mutiny than the 
London of the present day is the London of the time of Charles the First. 
Things have completely changed. In the first place, we all know that 
in the old times it was a very conmion thing for the officer in charge of 
a district to be a sort of patriarch, who patted the people on the back, 
went through their little villages, heard their tales of sorrow or wrong, 
and helped them where he could. But those happy days — and those of 
us who know what they were will agree with me in calling them happy 
days — ^are, I am sorry to say, now rapidly passing away. I shall not 
be suspected of intentionally throwing any slight upon the progress and 
law reform which, no doubt, were greatly needed in India; but, with 
the utmost admiration for all this, I cannot blind my eyes to the fact 
that officials now are not able to do what their predecessors did. 
Officials now have no time to enter into the feelings of the people, and 

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inquire into their prejudices. They are not allowed to go out of the 
established beaten roada; they cannot go about as they used to- do ; 
and they are tied to a mass of routine desk work ; so that it is impos- 
sible to get at the feeling of the natives in the same way as it used to 
be accomplished. An instance in point occurred to me as I was passing 
through India a short time since. I arrived at a locality where there 
was a man who had a grievance in that the Government had given him 
some land ten years ago, but he had been unable to obtain possession of 
it yet. He was asked why he did not go and state his complaint to the 
collector of the distict. His reply was, " Oh, it's no use ; he will only 
tell me to write what I have to say on stamped paper." This indicated 
a state of things common all over India, so that the argument of those 
who ask, " Why can't you let things be as they were ?" falls, necessarily, 
to the ground. Besides, it should be recollected thart in former times 
the people were not educated as they are now in course of being. I 
agree in thinking we ought not to take any special credit to ourselves 
for this ; for if we did not give them education it would be a shame upon 
us. But if we teach the people what are their rights, and give them the 
opportunity of acquiring knowledge, we must expect them to ask for a 
share in the government of the country ; just as the child whom we teach 
to talk and run about naturally proceeds to the exercise of its acquirements. 
There is, therefore, nothing surprising in the fact that the people of India 
come forward to ask for some voice in the administration of the affairs of 
their country ; it is, indeed, a natural result of the course we have pursued. 
The next objection — and this is one that is always strongly insisted 
upon — is that the natives will not express their real opinions, or if they 
do the opinions will not be worth having. What is the course now 
pursued ? When any important measure is about to be introduced by 
the Government, the head of the provinces — the local governor-r-calls 
upon the chief subordinate officers to express their opinions ; and they, 
in their turn, are worth nothing if they do not get together the opinions 
of the best natives around them. But, even where the officers consult 
native opinion, I am afraid, in nine cases out of ten, the names of the 
natives who give the advice are always forgotten. Herein lies a sore 
grievance among the natives, who say, " We are never heard of, and no 
notice is taken of what we think." As regards the free expression of 
opinion, I think there are those present who will bear me out in saying 
that the natives shrink from doing so, because the fact is they get rather 
" snubbed " if they express an opinion contrary to that held by the 
official questioner. " I have often been asked my opinion," says a 
native, " but I do not give it, because if it was not approved I should be 
told to walk out of the house." This is too true in many instances ; 


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and this is one of the reasons why we do not get a fair and tmstworthy 
native opinion. I could give you plenty of amusing instances of this, 
but time will not pennit. I think, however, we may safely arrive at the 
following conclusions : First, that there is a native opinion ; second, that 
it is worth having ; and third, that in the present state of things we can- 
not do as the officials of former days were accustomed to do, by reason 
of the great progress in reform in every way in India. And, therefore, 
the question remaining to be considered is, how shall we get the genuine 
native opinion ? Sir Bartle Frere has put forward the idea of village 
and provincial councils ; and it is a proposition which commends itself 
to all who give it due consideration. The desire of the natives for some- 
thing of the kind is general throughout the country. If you will allow 
me I will quote to you the opinions of the natives of the Punjab most 
distinguished for intelligence and good judgment, as well as for thorough 
loyalty. One man says : " A council is absolutely required, as in the 
Supreme Council of India. Native interests, especially of this province, 
are not sufficiently represented. The opinion of the people is unknown, 
and the "Government is, to a great extent, unacquainted with their 
desires." Another says : " There is no other way of informing the 
people of what Government wants, or the Government what the people 
want, than by a Council. Newspapers and the fact that the Government 
call occasionally for the views of natives are very useful in their way, but 
they afford the people neither a sufficient means for expressing their 
opinion, nor a sufficient guarantee that such opinions will be listened 
to." Another .says : " Laws are sometimes regarded with distrust, 
simply because the people have not been consulted. The Government 
is, no doubt, very wise in all it does, but the fact remains that it is a 
stranger to many of the feelings and wants of the people." Another 
says : " Hitherto the people have refrained from expressing their real 
opinions, which results in ignorance of their wants and suspicion of the 
Government." Another says : " A council would be of the greatest 
advantage in identifying the interests of the rulers and the ruled. Laws 
would then not be passed without obtaining first the consent of the 
people, and this would render their execution easy." Another says : " It 
is necessary to establish such a body, as laws are now introduced on 
which the opinion of the people is not asked. If this were done, laws 
would be in accordance with the wants and usages of the people ; e.g., 
an adultress used in Sikh times to be punished, but is not now, 
under English rule." Another says : " The Legislative Council cannot 
possibly know the feeling of the whole of India. This province 
wants a council, for acts are now passed which are adverse to the 
interests of this province, but to which it is necessary to submit. 

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What other means can there be for knowing what the people want ? No 
law can be popular that does not receive the- consent of the people. Such 
a council will be a source of strength to the Government, for it will only 
be too ready to give assent, once knowing that it is backed by the 
people." Another says : " Why are the Government acts and notifica- 
tions not translated and widely circulated among the people whom they 
concern ? At present the natives are in the dark regarding the spirit 
and the policy of the British laws and Government." Another man of a 
cynical turn of mind says : " Why should the Government fetter its own 
action by asking the opinion of the people ? It can do now as it likes, 
and will ever continue to do so. On the contrary, it is much better not to 
ask or inquire, for inquiry can only show that the people are unable to 
pay, for instance, certain taxes, which, however, Government consider it. 
necessary to levy. If the public policy of this country is to be based on 
argument, then an argument which may be considered as conclusive by 
the Government may not be considered equally so by the people. This 
would be merely creating additional diflSculty in the way of carrying out 
measures. Of course, theoretical government, based on the principle 
that it is instituted to attend to the welfare of the subjects, will only too 
gladly listen to their opinions; but as government is, after all, only 
composed of public individuals, it is certain that they, with very few 
exceptions, will tolerate no interference. The British Government, how- 
ever, has a desire to govern only for the benefit of the people ; but it is 
neither respectful nor safe to offer opinions contrary to that of any of its 
Thakims — i.e., rulers. It is not wise to show the people a means for ex- 
pressing their views, because they may become unanimous in wanting 
something which is really bad (? according to British ideas)." You will 
observe that the main difficulty is that " the natives are in the dark re- 
garding the spirit and policy of the British laws and Government," and this 
is a point on which Sir Donald McLeod has given very valuable testimony. 
It is his decided opinion that "the suspicion 'entertained by the natives 
regarding the actions of the Government arises simply from ignorance." 
The native opinions I have quoted were given four years ago, and since then 
the Government has taken a very important step in what is called decen- 
tralising the finances of the administration, and this has resulted in 
transferring the administration of a certain portion of public affairs from 
the Governor-General with a Council, to the Lieutenant-Governors 
without a Council. This change has, therefore, made the introduction 
of native opinion, or of some consultative body, absolutely necessary. 
I don't know whether it is intended that we should go into the practical 
part of the question, and settle what form it would be most advisable 
that the native councils should take. On this point I would advise 

K 2 

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ihat the natives themselves be first heard. But as regards the general 
scheme, sketched out by Sir Bartle Frere in a manner so clear and con- 
cise as to be at once understood, I can only express my hearty and 
entire concurrence in all that he — an eminent servant of the Govern- 
ment, a well-known friend of the native population, and now holding a 
high office in England — ^has suggested. I venture with diffidence to 
express an opinion contrary to his in regard to a minor point. Speaking 
of the provincial councils, he says : " They should be summoned 
annually, or oftener, if necessary, and should be presided over by a 
revenue or political officer of the highest grade." I hope Sir Bartle 
tFrere will excuse me for putting my experience against his, but in 
speaking my opinion I know I only express the feelings of the people 
of the Punjab. They say, " If we are to have native councils let us 
have no Europeans in them. We cannot give an independent opinion 
if there is an Englishman anywhere near us." Sir Bartle Frere will 
bear mp out in saying that if he were to pass throughout the country 
with a view of collecting opinions respecting a particular policy which 
he purposed carrying out, he would find that all through India natives 
would come and express opinions favourable to his scheme. But he 
would be quite aware that these opinions did not necessarily express the 
genuine native feeling ; too often it is quite contrary. The fact is the 
natives will not express theii opinion in the presence of Englishmen as 
a general rule ; and to get their true sentiments they must be altogether 
left alone. A hundred proofs of this will occur to the mind of every- 
one who knows anything of India. With this one slight exception, I 
beg to subscribe my hearty concurrence in the scheme proposed by Sir 
Bartle Frere. 

Mr. Harrychund Chintamon. — Sir and Gentlemen : The first im- 
pression that a native of India has on his arrival in England is, that 
he finds himself placed in another part of the world, different in climate, 
manners, habits, state of living, and social feelings. The English mind, 
he finds, is brought up to a great state of development, and the know- 
ledge acquired of a variety of things is utilised in manifold ways for the 
well-being of the people and the prosperity of the nation. Here is 
freedom from rank or caste. The mind thus being morally and intel- 
lectually instructed, it has become invigorated to such an extent that 
England has been raised to a great independence of thought and solidity 
of character, and the public opinion has become the ruling power of the 
nation. So much is this the case that the governing bodies derive the 
truth or shape the course of government in accordance with the 
feelings and wants of the people, and not by their own inadequate 
9,nd imperfect thoughts ; for they know well that human beings are 

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liable to frailties, and however correct knowledge they may have on 
several subjects, and however extensive their information may be, 
yet these are of little avail in the balance against the whole weight 
of the experience and knowledge of an intelligent people. And, 
therefore, public opinion in England is considered not only true and 
correct, but experience has proved that it is both agreeable and safe. 
Now, let us see whether India has the same advantage. I would say. 
No ; for though India was once the seat of great learning and wealth, 
she has been deprived of both, and is at the mercy of the British Govern- 
ment, who, considering her a sacred trust under Providence, feel here 
that they are morally bound to impart the same privileges to India 
in general. England gratefully acknowledges the benefit derived from 
the immense wealth and riches of intellect of India, and she, in return, 
feels bound to say that the English Government has not been w-anting 
in giving free education to her children, and in the endeavour to effect 
good to the people at large. But this only has not been sufficient, a 
great deal remains to be done. The generality of the governing bodies 
or of the executive functionaries in India are, if I mistake not, neither 
so liberal, nor social, nor animated by such true Christian feelings; 
Their attitude is such that they make the people feel their position of 
subordination, and their feelings and opinions are treated with in- 
difference. Very seldom is the right of independent expression of 
opinion granted to them. Though the authorities here in England have 
done their best to communicate their feelings, and have sent orders to do 
every possible good and treat the people of India fairly, so as to give 
them their equal rights irrespective of creed, colour, or caste, yet what 
has been done? Only very few offices of einolument have yet been 
granted, I may as well say, to blot out the tears of the people of India. 
Under these circumstances, how is it possible for the people of- India to 
express their true feelings openly and independently? Dare they 
attempt, they are ridiculed, and sometimes treated shamefully by their 
superiors, and are very often warned to mark the difference between 
the governors and the governed. I would further say that the natives 
of India in general are treated as condemned creatures, and not worthy 
of being attended to. The sources of information regarding India which 
England possesses are, I believe, two — the public press and the Goveru'- 
ment officials. The former give expression to a limited experience, and 
what they know within their precincts. The thousands in the interior 
— cultivators and others — remain quite unrepresented in their several 
grievances. Besides, the press have not the means of ascertaining their 
feelings. The second source of information — Government officials — as a 
body, are not at present so willing as Sir Bartle Frere showed himself ta 

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be, to mix with the people of India, to know their inner life and 
gi-ievances. Consequently they are only able to represent one side of 
the picture. The two sources of information — ^the press and officials — 
are very imperfect, and would never tend to civilise any nation. The 
suggestions now thrown out by Sir Bartle Frere are not only the best, 
but if the Government can be prevailed upon to practically carry them 
out, and not allow them to remain as dead letters, as has hitherto been the 
case, no doubt the results would be highly satisfactory and congenial to 
the ideas of the people of India. In addition to Sir Bartle Frere's. 
proposal, I think it would be highly advantageous if the Government 
were to appoint a native and a European, having at least a true interest 
in the welfare of India, to travel through the interior and study the 
feelings of the different peoples of the country, their habits, their con- 
dition. This information, collected on the spot, would be much more 
valuable and correct than any which could be culled from the formal 
reports of an official ; because few even of the native dwellers in the 
large towns of India have any true insight into the condition and suffer- 
ings of the poor cultivators of the soil in the interior; and unless they are 
mixed with and familiarised with, their habits can never be properly studied. 
The advantage of combining a native with a European in this Conunission 
is obvious, for the former would be able best to secure the confidence of the 
people, while each would facilitate the other's work in various ways. 
Two men travelling into the interior of each province in the manner I 
suggest would learn more of the inner life of the poorer people than ever 
was known before, even by the most experienced. The dwellers in the 
larger towns are in a far better position than the cultivators of the soil, 
for if they fail to prosper in their trades, and fall into distress, their wants 
are known and are relieved. But with the poor ryot the case is altogether 
different. They are seldom taken any notice of, their feelings and pre- 
judices are never consulted, and it is to these the Government should 
direct their attention. In the little travel I have had, I have seen with my 
own eyes in the interior the large majority of the poor people sunk in cruel 
misery — ^misery so deep that death is looked upon, not as a scourge, but as 
a relief. Without hope, without encouragement, oppressed and ill-treated, 
they have not the solace which men of education would have were they to 
fall in a like condition, and for the same reasons they are rendered in- 
capable of assisting or encouraging each other. Several objections 
which are likely to be raised to the scheme of native councils have, in 
my opinion, been sufficiently answered by Sir Bartle Frere in his address, 
so that nothing more is necessary on those points. In the representative 
system in the Legislative Councils, which has lately been tried, the 
selection of members has been generally confined to rank and wealth, 

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but not intelligence ; nor have men of any literary standing and exten- 
sive information, as to the real state of the country or the sections of its 
people, been called upon to represent their views. The natives of India 
are very desirous and anxious to state their grievances and ask redress, 
if only opportunity is offered to them, by giving them their due share in 
the administration of the government of their country ; and the time has 
now come when this should be done. India, at present, is in a state of 
helplessness, and has become poor in wealth ; and in this, her depressed 
find disabled state, she appeals to English feelings of humanity, as to a 
younger sister, for help and succour to ameliorate her condition. India 
has long been in a state of submission and dependency, and has quietly 
submitted to all sorts of suffering and irregularities. And now England, 
after having given a sound education, with a good Christian heart, to 
the children of India, they look for their elevation in position and for 
the opportunity of giving free, though charitable, expression to their 
feelings. The Government, on the plea of financial difficulties, propose 
new taxes, which of late have been so much increased, and have become 
so burdensome, that the people of India are not only distressed, but im- 
poverished to such an extent that they can only look to England to 
preserve them from their wretchedness and misery. And if at this 
critical moment the authorities should not consult the feelings of the 
people, and their state and condition, before levying new taxes, 
they will fail in doing their duty, and they must remember that 
there is a certain limit to forbearance and submission. In con- 
clusion, I would say one word more : As English statesmen gave 
expression on public occasions to their feelings by, saying that they hold 
India as a sacred trust under Providence, I most humbly and respectfully 
urge that the eye of Providence is closely watching England's actions in 
respect to the feelings and opinions of the people of India, If England 
discharges her duties as under the eye of Providence, she will merit the 
reward of the Most High — the One and True Living Father of us all, 
differing though we do in external appearance. Providence has been 
pleased to bless England with wealth and intelligence, and if she were 
not to take mere glory in her triumph, but tried to do her best to elevate 
the position of India, she would be fulfilling a sacred duty towards her 
neighbour. As the Christian proverb says, " Do unto others as ye would 
they should do unto you." 

Mr. Prichard. — I think it was fortunate, Sir, that it was deter- 
mined to postpone the further consideration of Sir Bartle Frere's very 
interesting and instructive paper to the present occasion, because the 
scheme suggested by him appeared at first so very startling that I felt, 
and I believed others have shared that feeling, we should like to think it 

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over before we expressed an opinion on the subject. The interval has 
allowed time for reflection, and I have, after consideration, come to two 
conclusions, which I will, if you will allow me, briefly state to the 
meeting. I fear the plan suggested will hardly be successful. The 
Indian races have been for so many years ground down under the crush- 
ing weight of arbitrary and despotic rule that they require a long course 
of political training to educate them up to that standard of independence 
of thought that will induce them to believe that they can express their 
opinions freely upon public questions with impunity. I am sorry to say 
that I cannot think our present system of administration is calculated, 
as a general rule, to impart that education of which I speak. I think 
that if more encouragement were given to induce the natives to express 
their opinion on public questions, we might in time give them that in- 
dependence which would enable them to speak out without hindrance. 
At present I do not think it will be found that this will be the case. I 
think the measure by which Sir Bartle Frere endeavoured to provide 
against that suppression of opinion, by providing that under certain 
circumstances the councils of which he spoke should be presided over by 
native officials, instead of Europeans, would hardly have the desired effect. 
I think all who have been in India will agree with me ; and Sir Bartle 
Frere himself will admit that in nine cases out of ten, when the English 
official asks a native subordinate a question upon a matter of public 
interest, the answer is given in the way the native supposes will be most 
likely to accord with the opinion of the questioner. We hear a great 
deal occasionally about the overbearing conduct of English officials to 
natives, and we have heard the subject alluded to by the gentleman who 
has just spoken. This may be sometimes, and I fear it too often is a 
true bill ; but as far as my experience goes, the native in power is ten 
times — aye, beyond all comparison — ^more impatient of free expression of 
opinion than the English official. And the reason is not far to seek. 
The English official carries with him from his country sentiments and 
associations derived from his long residence under a free constitution, 
and to him there is nothing new or foreign in the idea of freedom in 
expression of opinion by individuals. On the other hand, to the native 
of India, and of all Oriental countries, the free and unfettered expression 
of public opinion is something altogether strange and foreign. Xt is totally 
now to him, and I repeat that until the natives have been educated up to a 
higher standard of independence of thought, Sir Bartle Frere's scheme 
will, I fear, prove ineffectual. The second conclusion at which I have 
arrived is, that Sir Bartle Frere has too much overlooked the fact 
that the legitimate channel — shall I say the only and legitimate 
channel?.-^, of public opinion is the press. I daresay what I an^ 

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going to assert will appear absurd and paradoxical to some who 
hear me, but I assert it with a full conviction of its truth, that the 
Indian press, by which I mean the native as well as the Anglo-Indian 
press, is as good a representative of public opinion as the press of 
England or France. The press of India is free from one great dis- 
advantage which characterises the press in England, France, and 
some other European countries. In this country a public question is 
discussed not so much upon its intrinsic merits, as upon considerations, 
not exactly of party questions, but of personal influence under the guise 
of party questions. Thus, for instance, the Prime Minister and his 
colleagues may be angels of intelligence and wisdom, they may propound 
the soundest public measures, measures that are wise, good, and just ; 
but no matter, the Opposition journals will hold them up to ridicule, and 
stigmatise their measures as unsound, impolitic, and foolish. On the 
other hand, members of the Opposition may bring forward measures 
equally good, politic, and beneficial. But. the Ministerial organs will 
condemn them simply because they proceed from the Opposition, and, 
perhaps, stigmatise the authors of them as idiots and political charlatans. 
This is the weak point of the English press, and it is a serious one, but 
it is one from which the Indian press is entirely free. English people 
call this system party government, and defend it as being constitutional, 
and they like it because it suits the active and vigorous political spirit 
of the country, and I daresay it is all right. But, on general grounds, 
it must be obviously an advantage to have a press less under the 
influence of party feeling, and accustomed to weigh and discuss, to 
approve or condemn, public measures purely on their own merits, and not 
according as a man stands in favour or disfavour with the editor of a party 
journal. In the Indian press measures are discussed in this impartial 
spirit ; the writers sift every question as well as they can, and consider it 
in all its bearings. It may be that in some respects the Indian press is 
not so well informed as it might be, but yet on the whole it does, I think, 
beyond question, fairly reflect public opinion as far as we are likely to get 
at it. The only other remark I would make is, that if we would wish 
the natives of India to express their opinion freely on political and public 
questions, some encouragement must be given them to do so. If we 
would have them tell us what they really think and feel on matters that 
concern their own interest, we must encourage them to do so by means far 
other than those which have been used hitherto. The sort of encourage- 
ment they do meet with may be seen from the way in which the remon- 
strance against the income-tax was received in the House of Commons 
the other day — the House of Commons, recollect — that assembly where 
of all places in the world one would expect that a temperate and 

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respectful remonstrance against an obnoxious impost would have been 
received, at any rate, with courtesy and attention. Yet how was that 
remonstrance received, Sir ? A minister of the Crown — a member of a 
so-called Liberal Government — could stand up in the House and 
stigmatise the temperate protest of an oppressed people as the 
shrieking and howling of discontented serfs This is the kind of en- 
couragement the public opinion of India meets with in the House of 
Commons I Do you think. Sir, those words have not gone over the 
length and breadth of the land, and sunk deep into the hearts of a 
hundred millions of people? I am sure I express the feeling of the 
meeting when I say that we heard Sir Bartle Frere's address with the 
utmost possible interest, as a valuable suggestion for the solution of a 
difficult problem in our Indian administration. But for myself, I cannot 
help thinking that Sir Bartle Frere would have done a still greater 
service to the cause if he had devoted his acute intellect and his best 
experience to the solution of the problem, not " how best to ascertain 
public opinion in India," but how best to induce the Indian Government 
to attend to it when it has been ascertained. 

Mr. Syed Mahmood. — I should have been reluctant to speak on the 
subject before the Association this evening, but since I find, Sir, that it 
is your desire to hear the opinions of those natives of India who are 
present, I feel it almost a duty to say what I think about the subject 
upon which Sir Bartle Frere has addressed you. Respecting public 
opinion in India, I perfectly agi*ee with those who consider it a matter 
of great importance ; and I share the opinion of Mr. Prichard in 
regard to the English press in India. That press, doubtless, en-t 
deavours to obtain accurate information respecting the opinions of 
the people, and gives its views respecting questions which affect 
public interest; but it expresses the views only of the European 
community. I doubt the great importance attached by the last speaker 
to the native press, and my remark will appear less surprising when we 
take into consideration the reluctance of the native editors to publish 
any opinion against the Government. They are afraid to do so ; and I 
am sorry to say that, in some instances, the influence of the Government 
has been used in putting down the opinions of native journals. Under 
such circumstances it is easy to see that the difficulties which beset the 
investigation of native opinion are by no means small. The natives 
always feel that the editors of the native journals are personally re- 
sponsible for what they write less to law than to the English officials, 
and thus opinions in any way against the Government are almost always 
left unexpressed. Mr. Prichard has alluded to the topic of the attitude 
of English officials in India. I will not enter into the disagreeable dis- 

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cussion as to whether it is the fault of the officials or the fault of the 
natives, but I may express my conviction that the evil arises from faults 
on both sides ; and it must always exist so long as we do not understand 
England and the English character, and do not appreciate the British 
sentiment of liberty. It is true, as a speaker has said, that a few of the 
natives of Lidia are capable of understanding the system of English 
Government in India, but by far the majority of the natives are quite 
incapable of doing so, and have no means of knowing the difference 
between the Government of India now and what it was a century ago ; 
for though no despotism rules India, yet the English officials are re- 
garded as possessing all the powers which the aamils under the Mogul 
Emperors used to have. Under such circumstances the difficulty of 
finding out the real opinion of the natives is extraordinarily augmented, 
but still I do not think it is beyond the power of the British Government 
to find out means to ascertain the public opinion of individuals. I 
can allow that we are too far back in civilisation to have a sufficiently 
good and sound public opinion upon which the Government can base 
its legislation ; in fact, it would be dangerous to yield to it more 
than its value deserves. In saying this I do not mean to be in the 
least unpatriotic to my country, but I express convictions which must 
be held by all unbiassed and impartial men. But although we are not yet 
capable of entering largely upon the arena of public affairs, I am never- 
theless convinced that the public opinion of our masses is of great 
importance to the British Government — indeed, of the most vital im- 
portance. I do not mean by this to assert that the public opinion of 
the whole body of the natives is correct upon public questions ; but I do 
assert that, right or wrong, public opinion should be watched by the 
Government, and its sentiments carefully weighed. Neglect in giving 
the necessary attention even to a grossly erroneous public opinion may 
have the most injurious effect. The enormities of 1857 were committed 
because the natives did not know what good the British Government had 
done to their country, and they were equally incapable of understanding 
what would follow after th'e expulsion of l3ie British nation from India. 
The mutiny, perhaps, would never have happened if we only had a 
better knowledge of the system and objects of the British Government. 
And could no means arrest the excesses of '57 ? Without entering into 
the painful inquiry as to what, on the one hand, was done by the natives 
of- India in 1857, or, on the other hand, what was done by the English 
in suppressing the rebellion, I may express my regret to find that the 
larger number of the Europeans who were then in India seemed inclined 
to lay the whole blame upon the poor native population, forgetting that 
the admission uivolves the admission that the British Government of 

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that time were in the most extraordinary ignorance of the current of 
public opinion in the great provinces over which the English rule 
extends. No admission, however, is made that all the wrong was on the 
side of the natives ; and, perhaps, the best we can do is to let the mutiny 
pass into oblivion. But justice must still award that there were faults 
on both sides, and that the Government had erred in neglecting to study 
the public opinion of the people. The native population yield willingly 
to the influence of the Government, but when we know that the Govern- 
ment is really neglecting a means of information which would be alike 
beneficial to the population and the Government, a hearing should be 
granted ; and means should be given to the natives of seeing that the 
British are really ruling the nation for its own benefit, and of seeing 
whether the revenue of India is devoted to its welfare, and not sent to 
swell the riches of England. If the native desire to have some share in 
public afl*airs is not gratified, it is not a matter of inuch wonder that dis- 
satisfaction exists, and the people become in critical times capable of 
doing things which they may afterwards regret. Now, Sir, we all agree 
that there is much difficulty in ascertaining the public feeling of India, 
but the gentlemen who have spoken on this subject do not seem to have 
proposed anything which may render the Government capable of finding 
out the thoughts of the people. I have already said that I think it 
would be most dangerous for the British Government to attempt to 
manage India, solely guided by the public opinion of its people ; but I 
repeat that even a study of our ignorance would be a wise thing on the 
part of our rulers. To take an instance, trifling in itself, perhaps, but 
important in its bearing — or so at least it appears to me — I mean the 
supposed danger to the British rule in India from a Eussian invasion. 
Well, Sir, in this country it is said to be impossible for the Eussians to 
cross the immense mountain barriers which must be passed to reach the 
plains of India, and that even if Eussia attempted an invasion, it would be 
easy for the British Government to send a Sepoy army to the frontier to 
successfully stay the Eussian advance. People who argue thus do not 
take into consideration the public opinion of Ihdia on this subject. In a 
city, once the capital of the Mogul Empire — I mean Delhi, to which I 
belong — I can tell you the public opinion held there by all classes, 
Hindoos and Mohammedans. You are aware that Delhi was considered 
to be the chief place from which, in the year 1857, the greatest mischief 
of the mutiny was done ; and now, Sir, it is a city where political opinion 
strongly stirs the people, and so strongly does the supposed Eussian in- 
vasion influence public opinion that it is believed that the day is not far 
*when the sound of the Eussian guns will be heard at Peshawur. It is 
also believed that if Eussia crosses the frontier the whole of India 

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will rise in arms against the British ruk, quite indifferent whether the 
change will be good or bad, but simply influenced by the desire to 
revenge the injuries of 1857. But no measures are taken by the Go- 
vernment to mitigate the evils which give rise to this impression, which, 
however ridiculous, may bring forth the most unhappy results. To 
look in another direction, the British Government may work great good 
while endeavouring to remedy the evils of which the natives complain, 
if they consult public opinion in respect to the acts of the Legislative 
Council. I am sorry to say I have met with people who have lived in 
India all their lives, and who might, therefore, have been expected to 
know a great deal of the government of the country, who would have 
England rule the nation altogether regardless of public opinion. These 
gentlemen forget that perhaps the only — certainly the best — -justifica- 
tion for England's rule in India is that she desires to raise the people 
from their sunken condition, and to do the nation good in every way. 
And in undertaking this great mission England is bound to disregard 
her own private advantage, and to comfort, protect, and encourage hei 
weaker sister, trusting to the gratitude which I hope the country 
will ever show. A gentleman has alluded to the income-tax in India 
I was away from home when that tax was instituted, but from privat 
correspondence, and from what I have gathered from my friends, 
think I can estimate the public opinion of India on the subject 
Of this I am quite sure ; there is an almost unanimous opinion that th 
revenues of India are very ill-managed, and that the Finance Ministei 
are either very careless or incapable of managing or arranging th 
taxation of the country ; and the natives think they could manage tL 
finances of the country much better, if they were allowed to have ai 
hand in the matter. Public opinion inclines to the belief that tl 
revenues of India go to enrich the pockets of England ; and though to . ' 
the impression appears ridiculous, yet to me it only shows the necessif ' 
for permitting the natives some association in the government of the coun 
. try. They will then see how totally unfounded is the impression they hoh' 
If I may be allowed to express my opinion as to the mode by whic 
the British Government may be able to learn the true public opinion c 
India — ^and it is an opinion not held by me alone, but shared by others- 
it is to establish district councils by means of a voting suffrage. An'^ 
though it would be neither wise, nor possible to extend the suffrage sc 
widely as it exists in England, yet all possessing a certain amount o. 
real propriety or its equivalent might have a vote upon such a question. 
If such councils were established, and presided over by the distric 
officers, and if the ballot system of voting were adopted in the council, 
there would be little difficulty in getting at the real opinion of the 

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country on any given subject. It is actually the fact — though the 
people in England cannot understand it, never having seen it — ^that the 
officers of districts are very much dreaded by the people whom they 
govern, and, in some instances, I am sorry to say, the fear is not un- 
founded. If I were in the place of some of the landholders, I would, 
indeed, be very reluctant to be required to give my frank opinion on any 
question asked me by the district officer if my opinion was likely to dis- 
please him, and in doing this I would be guarding my interest. But by 
the ballot system the matter might be so arranged that the people who 
have to give their opinion could have no reason to fear the Government 
displeasure. I have already said that the opinion thus gathered from 
the provincial or district councils all over India would not necessarily be 
proper ta follow, nor would the Government be bound to grant what was 
asked. The advice of the natives would probably be often not such as 
could be adopted ; and this must always be the case until the nation are 
sufficiently well advanced to have trustworthy opinion, as in civilised 
European communities. While the Government would thus be secure 
from the adoption of unwise measures, it would be in a position to hear 
and know* the feelings of the nation, and would, besides, be giving to 
the people that incentive to advancement which is the aim of good 
government. This end would be greatly assisted and obtained by a 
proper system of education in the vernaculars of the country, when an 
intelligence spreading among the masses of the people would give weight 
and value to public opinion, and to obtain this most desirable result 
should be the constant aim of the Government, not only for the benefit 
of India, but for the honour of the country by which it is ruled. Act- 
ing thus, the British Government will show that their rule is not a yoke 
upon India, but a blessing from Heaven. 

Mr. Trblawnby Saundbrs observed that, viewing the subject from 
a purely British point of view, he would venture to express his opinions 
upon it, and he did so as one who had some little experience as a partici- 
pator in the government of a metropolitan parish. I doubt [continued . 
the speaker] whether administration in an English point of view is 
understood to be designed for the purpose of bringing about, or directing, 
or aiding, political discussion at all. I do not think it is any part of the 
business of an administration to deal with such questions. They are 
incidents, not objects of its work. If we give the proper objects of an 
administration, upon just and proper principles — if we teach the Indian 
people (and in fact we have little to teach them in respect to the prin- 
ciples upon which local administration is based) to re-erect the institu- 
tions which existed from time immemorial among them, and desire them 
to carry on their local affairs as we carry on our own — ^the incidents of 

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political and social opinion will work themselves out of their own accord. 
I totally differ from Mr. Prichard in regarding the press of India as of 
influence on public opinion. I know that in saying this I am bringing 
upon myself the castigation of gentlemen who have the reputation of 
holding the tongue of public opinion ; but I care little for that. I believe 
that anywhere and everywhere, if we want to find a just expression of 
the opinion of the public, we must look upon it as it is given in a public 
meeting, properly organised and limited. Not such meetings as we are 
now prone to in this country-— concourses of rabble in places where they 
are utterly unknown ; but meetings of persons in localities where they 
reside, and are known as men of understanding. No expression of 
opinion given in any other form can be called public opinion legiti- 
mately ; and no other expression of opinion is entitled to the weight 
which the phrase conveys. Now, in India our position may be regarded 
as one of transition. Hitherto our position in that country has been 
that of conq.uerors ; and it is a comparatively easy thing to govern by the 
sword. It is quite true that we did not seek this position ; we entered 
India as traders, and desired so to remain ; and, being assaulted, we 
were obliged to oppose force to force, and thus came to our present 
position. We find ourselves in this position, that if we desire to 
remain as traders we must be rulers also ; and the first consideration, 
therefore, of the British Government is. How to maintain our rule in 
India ? This question now presents itself in a new phase. We cease to 
rule the country by merely military occupation, but have erected a civil 
administration. I am sure I share the sentiments of all true Englishmen 
when I say we should be exceedingly sorry to maintain a despotic admi- 
nistration in India any longer than was absolutely necessary to the peace 
of the country and the safety of the English, and therefore I am glad to 
support the proposition which is now under discussion. I held this 
opinion years ago, when it was the fashion to say that public opinion in 
India was a thing not to be regarded at all, that the natives would never 
be fit to govern themselves, and that the ideas of local self-government 
and representation were altogether foreign to them. Such was the 
opinion expressed by many gentlemen who returned from India. But 
all that is changed. We have learned that in India municipal institu- 
tutions exist of a date far older than our own ; and, that being the case, 
if we look at the actual administration of India, we can hardly fail to sec 
that the danger we incur is that of over-governing India. We are taking 
much more upon ourselves in India than would be safe for us to adopt 
here ; and if the Government of this cotmtry were to undertake the entire 
administration of all the affairs, local and general, of the people there 
would be a revolution, and it would be impossible at the same time to 

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encourage a spirit of freedom. The same spectacle is presented in India, 
and what the Government must do is to withdraw itself as much as 
possible from interference in local affairs, and to leave them almost 
entirely in the hands of the people. But tha great point to secure in 
administration is a proper and effective system of " check." You have 
no business to trust any people to administer their own affairs without 
watching them. If you give the people of India authority to manage 
their own local affairs, and take care that they are attended to, you 
will have afforded them an organisation valuable both to you and to 
them, especially valuable to you as giving the necessary machinery for 
estimating public opinion ; and you will at the same time have relieved 
yourselves of a large portion of the responsibility which is involved iu 
the government of 200,000,000 of people. 

Mr. S. B. Thakur, remarking on the observations which had fallen 
from several speakers respecting the native organs of the press, said he 
agreed with Mr. Prichard in thinking the Indian press is as good a means 
of ascertaining public opinion as that in £ngland ; and to his mind 
the remarks of Mr. Saunders on this part of the subject were incorrect, 
nor could he agree with the statements which had been made respecting 
the alleged subserviency of editors to officials. On the contrary, in his 
experience at Bombay, and from what he knew in regard to Madras and 
Bengal, the editors of newspapers had no fear in expressing their opinion. 
Sir Bartle Frere had urged that it is the duty of the public servants to 
go over the districts and learn something of the wants and manners of 
the people whom they rule. This was quite true ; and the plea that no 
time can be found for this, although valid in some instances, is often but 
a poor excuse ; the real reason for the neglect being the habit of the 
functionary to look down upon the people, and to rule them with 
a high hand, treating their grievances with indifference. He cordially 
agreed with Sir Bartle Frere's scheme; and to the objection that 
were an English officer placed at the head of the provincial native 
councils the candid opinion of the members would not be forthcoming he 
demurred, by remarking that it was hardly probable that in a native 
council all of the members would be so wanting in public spirit as 
to suppress their opinions. To the objection that the political education 
of the people of India is not sufficiently advanced to enable them to 
appreciate such a system, he replied that though a fault exists in this 
respect, yet it once applied to England herself, for she must have made 
a beginning in representative government, or of the duties of delegates. 
In those times the more intelligent and advanced in the nation guided 
the people to a right conclusion, and the same could be done in India ; 
and if it were done he did not despair but that India in process of time VjOOQIC 


would reach the point at which the English people had arrived. One of 
the speakers observed that a native in office is a greater despot than an: 
Englishman ; but the natives were not appointed to any of the high 
offices ; and if in subordinate positions there were instances where native 
officials had abused their power, they were certainly far less numerous 
than the instances wherein English officials abused their powers. Re-« 
specting the remark of Mr. Saunders that the first object of the British 
was to maintain their rule under any circumstances, the speaker urged; 
that that was not the ground on which the English could base their 
claim to the gratitude of the natives. England's best plea is that her rule 
is the most beneficial to India, and that, holding the country in trust, she 
rules it only until the time comes when the people show themselves abla 
and willing to govern themselves. 

On the motion of Colonel French, the debate was adjourned. 


For the Second Adjourned Discussion on the Address read hy Sir Bartle 
Frere^ G,C.SJ,, K,C,B,, on " The Means of Ascertaining Public 
Opinion in India, ^* 

IN THE Chair. 

Sir Vincent Eyre, K.C.S.L, occupied the chair as on the two previous 
occasions, and, in opening the proceedings, he observed that, in order to 
widen the discussion as much as possible, and to give as many as possible 
an opportunity of expressing their opinions on the important question, 
before the meeting, each speaker would be requested to limit himself to 
about ten minutes, more or less. 

Sir MoRDAUNT Wells.— I shall be very happy indeed, so far as the 
ten minutes will allow — ^rather a short space in which to discuss so im- 
portant a question — to give expression to certain views which I entertain 
in reference to this important subject which has been introduced by Sir 
Bartle Frere. I cannot conceive that there could be a question of more 
importance, because, to my mind, if it means anything it involves, a 
radical change in the system of government in India ; it means that the 
Government of India is to be the expression of public opinion ; it means, 
representative government ; and it means that the natives of India are 
to have a voice in the public affairs of their country. Looking at the 
matter in this broad view, and taking as a basis the statement made by 
Sir Bartle Frere, namely, that there is to be a village council, that repre^ 
s^entatives are to be sent from it to the district council, who, \ri turn, will 


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send members to tlie provincial council — to consider this proposition ia 
a proper light the habits of the people and the extent of ediie^stie» na^ 
be carefully considered. Now it happens^ UBi^fetmssi^l^y that the great 
ms^oritj of the people are uneducs'tedr' In say'ing this, do not let it be 
supposed that I am disposed t» ignore what has been done in the way of 
remedying this coa^^on of affairs. On the contrary, no man is more 
alive than I am to the real and substantial progress which has been 
made awong the natives who have had the advantage of a high-K^lass 
education. But this is true only in a very limited degree, and in that 
Umited degree it only applies to the population of the towns. Get away 
from these cenlres of society, and what do you find in the country at 
large ? The utter absence of education. Yet it is to the population of 
the country we must look to form the representative institutions which 
constitute the base of the proposed system. In the annual administrative 
report of the North-West Provinces I find that the state of education is 
simply this: the entire number of pupils under instruction was 200,831. 
Beckoning the number of those who are of suitable age for instruction, 
there should be 5,106,719 learners in the schools, or twenty >five times 
the present number. Assuming half the above number to be boys, there 
ought to be 2,553,360 boys at school, instead of 189,292. The report 
shows that 92^ per cent, of the boy population are uneducated ; and did 
time permit I could satisfy you as to this by referring to other reports 
which have been published, which show what is the real condition of 
things. Whilst I am most sincerely of opinion that the propositions of 
Sir Bartle Frere are such as should be entertained and seriously con- 
sidered as a feasible means of ascertaining public opinion in India, and 
as an efficient system of machinery, whereby the Government could 
collect most valuable information, still I wish it to be clearly understood 
that we are dealing with an uneducated people. Take Bengal — in many 
respects a favoured selection — and taking its population at 40,000,000, 
yet in all the lower-class schools throughout Bengal there are not more 
than 170,000 boys in daily attendance receiving education ; this number 
being, of course, exclusive of the comparatively few who are in attend- 
ance at the higher-class schools. Sir Bartle Frere's scheme proposes to 
nurse the existing native councils in the villages, and it is not difficult 
to estimate the amount of knowledge there would be displayed in such 
assemblies as these. It follows naturally that the whole thing would be 
entirely in the hands of the few educated people in these villages. In 
what may be called the " go-ahead " province of the Punjab, you have 
a kind of representative principle at work in relation to ninety-seven 
municipal bodies, subdivided into three classes, with graduated powers of 
expenditure. The committees of the first-class municipalities are em- 

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powered to spend their income on objects authorised by the Act without 
reference to superior authority. Those of the second and third class are 
more under the control of the commissioner and district oflficer. It ap- 
pears from the administrative report that the committees are composed of 
ofiRcial and non-official members ; that the mode of appointment is, in 
some cases, elective, but generally the non-official members are selected 
by Government. Now, how do these committees work ? The same report 
says of these municipal bodies that the most effective, most influential, 
intelligent, and independent members of these committees are the Govern- 
ment nominees. If you go into the matter further you will find that in 
the Bom'bay Presidency during the last year the Municipal Act was 
introduced into several towns, its operation was suspended in Tarapoor, 
in Tanna, and Shendornee, in Khandeish, on petitions of the inhabitants 
themselves. I am not aware of the existence of municipal institutions 
in Bengal, except in the town of Calcutta, and, perhaps, in one or two 
other towns. I will admit, however, for the purposes of argument, that 
the working of municipal institutions has been successful. In Umritsur 
the mode in which the public business was transacted was most satis- 
factory, and I believe the municipal bodies in the Punjab are a perfect 
success. Now comes the question — How are we, first of all, to ascertain 
what is the view entertained by the natives on this question ? — because 
at present it is a complete blank. I see here many gentlemen of great 
experience in various parts of India, and yet I will venture to say that 
not one of them could explain the working of a village council in India 
or what it means. Yet it is this which is to be the foundation of the 
representative principle in India. I may say that I am quite in favour 
of the proposition of Sir Bartle Frere if it can be carried out ; but let us 
first see the method by which it could be made practicable. We ought 
to have correct information as to the real action of these village councils, 
and also of the feeling of the leading natives on the question. I say this 
because, although I feel it is all very well for us to meet here, and attempt 
to discuss a large and important question like this, it is certain that, after 
all, we can come to no satisfactory conclusion without a more extensive 
knowledge of the working of the existing institutions and the feelings 
of the natives. I agree with every word that has been said in urgnig the 
importance of the question; it is one of the deepest interest to the 
natives of India. I freely admit that the natives are entitled to direct 
representation in the Indian councils, as proposed by Sir Bartle. Frere. 
But you might have a majority of natives in the legislative councils 
according to Sir Bartle Frere's scheme. Would you be prepared to 
adopt the legislation which they might recommend ? If so, you will, as 
a consequence, have yielded to that body, or to its majority, the power of 

L 2 

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passing acts, or of taking such steps as may effect a change in the whol« 
policy of the Government of India in reference to the mode in which im- 
portant public questions have been, or may be, dealt with. Last year I 
travelled through Russia, and in the course of my journey I visited several 
large villages, and there I found a system of village councils, in which 
certain powers were exercised with respect to bridges, roads, and different 
local matters ; and it is remarkable that the same principle suggested 
by Sir Bartle Frere in respect to representation in councils is already in 
^existence in Eussia. The village councils there have the power to send 
delegates to the provincial assembly. There is, however, this important 
difference, that the provincial assemblies of Russia have the power of 
imposing taxes. And it is a point for you to consider that if you have 
in India provincial councils like the assemblies of Russia, with the 
power of imposing taxes, the importance of the scheme now produced 
cannot be overrated. All who have been in India and mixed at all 
among the native population have seen that if the people are sensitive of 
.one thing., it i^ in reference to their taxation — they have the greatest 
.possible dislike to it. And here I may remark, as illustrating the point, 
that among the witnesses recently examined by the Committee of the 
House of Commons on Indian Finance was a native gentleman, who, in 
reply to questions respecting the cess in Bengal for educational purposes, 
said he was willing that education should be set aside altogether, and 
that consequently, moral and intellectual advancement should be alto7 
gether stopped, sooner than see such a tax levied. I have said that in so 
Jarge a question it is of the highest importance— indeed, I think it i^ 
absolutely necessary that the feelings of the natives in respect to it 
fihould be consulted. It is true that it is but an act of justice that you 
should give the natives a voice in the expenditure of the taxation which 
is principally borne by them. Although there is a large body of native 
gentlemen, thoroughly educated and perfectly competent to take up an 
independent position in any legislative body, yet they would be associated 
with a large number who would be sent there by the uneducated mass of 
the people. And therefore I think the first thing we ought to do is to 
educate the people of India — giving them an education similar to that 
given to the lower classes in this country. The progress of that educa- 
tion should be carefully watched l;y means of certain jofficers who can 
collect information, and observe the influences brought to bear on the 
people. And having done that, at the end of whatever number of years 
may be necessary to properly effect it, a proposition similar to that of Sir 
Bartle Frere must come before the Government both at home and in 
India. I am prepared to accept the result of such a step ; but I say 
that if at any time the natives of India are in such a position of intelkc- 

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tual and moral culture as to be able to form a solid arid reliable public 
opinion, that moment a due share of the government should be giyen to 
them, I repeat that I am prepared for all the consequences of this, 
although to the future of India it may mean the placing of perfect self- 
control into the hands of the 150,000,000 of people, and the relinquish- 
ment of power by the dominant foreign race. We must do what is right 
and just to the natives by giving them a sound education, and thus 
• enable them to enter upon the exercise of a honest and deliberate public 
opinion, free from the dictation of officials, whether native or European ; 
and you will have laid a sound basis on which to found a superstructure 
of self-government. With these limitations I heartily concur in Sir 
Bartle Frere's proposition, that the natives of India are entitled to 
representation just as in Australia, in New Zealand, in Canada, of 
none of whom would any man begrudge even greater independence 
if they desired it than they now possess. Once adopt the principlie 
in India, and you must not expect to control the feelings of 150,000,000 
of people, who will assuredly ask for their rights, and, in the strength of 
their intellectual power, will be in a position to demand them. However 
unpalatable this may be to some of us, we must be prepared to face it 
with a good heart, and to accept any result which shall follow from our 
endeavour to be just, honourable, and upright in our dealings with the 
,people of India. 

Dr. MoTJAT.— ^Cordially concurring as I do in the leading principle 
which is the basis of Sir Bartle Frere's address, namely, that in the 
government of India you must mainly consult the feelings and opinions 
of the natives of that country, and that you must associate them in the 
great work of government, I also agree with Sir Mordaunt Wells in 
thinking it impossible to narrow the question to the simple issue on 
which Sir Bartle Frere has placed it, for it really opens up the whole 
subject of the government of the Indian Empire. I believe, also, that 
until the mass of the people are more extensively and better educated 
than they are at present, you can scarcely with safety entrust, any of the 
powers of governing to the natives of India, or that public opinion, 
elicited by means suggested by Sir Bartle Frere, would be of any great 
value to you. I am strongly of opinion that the acts of the Government 
ought to be regulated by native opinion rather than by our own precour 
ceived notions on the subject. To show you how thoroughly sound Sir 
Bartle Frere's views are on this subject, I can give you some of the 
results of my own experience as to the value of native counsel in matters 
of great public importance. In the early part of my career in India, 
•when in charge of the Medical College of Calcutta, an institution which 
has been the means of bestowing a vast amount of moral and material 

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benefit upon the community, there arose a great agitation among the 
natives on a subject which has been the cause of similar outbrei^s of 
feeling elsewhere in more advanced communities. It was with reference 
to the pursuit of practical anatomy, and that event to which I refer 
occurred during the administration of Lord Auckland, a ruler who has 
not received fair treatment at the hands of the historian* of India, but 
who was not less active in promoting the welfare of the people under his 
charge than he was wise in the measures originated by his Government. 
When the agitation arose Lord Auckland sent for me and told me that a 
monster petition was about to be presented to them to prohibit the 
dissection of the human body, as being repugnant to the feelings and 
opposed to the religious prejudices of the people, and that a great public 
conmiotiou was likely to arise on the subject. He said to me that this 
question must never come before him as Governor-General, and he added, 
" I give you full authority to discover the cause of the agitation of the 
people, and, it possible, to remove it." Anxious, of course, to secure 
that no detriment should be done to the college by a prohibition of the 
all-important study of anatomy, I consulted the chief magistrate and 
other leading Europeans, members of the community ; but no information 
• which they could give me helped me in the least as to the cause of the 
popular commotion. I then went to an esteemed old native friend of 
mine, the late Ram Comal Sen, a member of the Council of Education, 
and uncle, I believe, of Baboo Keshub Chunder Sen, the great Hindoo 
reformer, who has recently been among you. I stated the facts to him, 
and said, " You are one of the parents and founders of the medical 
college, and I ask you to help to rescue us from this difficulty, for if the 
pursuit of anatomy is to be prohibited it will be fatal to the progress of the 
institution and to the study and practice of medicine." He took the matter 
up with his customary cordiality and skill, and by his aid we traced the 
source of the popular prejudice to an interference with a very curious 
vested right which was interfered with. The matter was settled to the 
satisfaction of all concerned, the agitation ceased, and from that hour 
tp this there has been no hindrance to the pursuit of anatomy in 'the 
college at Calcutta. It has extended throughout all the provinces of 
India, other colleges have followed in the wake of the noble institution 
in Calcutta, and medical science in India has been enabled to make that 
great progress which would have been impossible but for the assistance 
of an enlightened native gentleman in respect to a popular outcry. In 
this I think you have an apt illustration of the soundness of Sir Bartle 
Frere's argument; for it was this educated, honest, intelligent, and well- 
disposed native who rescued us from a dilenmia from which, in all pro- 
bability, we could not have extricated ourselves. I will give you an- 

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other instance which occurs to me, and it is in reference to the subject 
of vaccination, which is one of great and pressing importance in England 
at the present moment. Smallpox had become epidemic in Bengal, and 
was ravaging the provinces. An intention was expressed of legislating 
upon the means of stamping out the disease by means of vaccination in 
the place of inoculation, as practised in the country, which was rightly 
regarded as the chief arid most mischievous agent in the extension of the 
disease. To this there was considerable opposition, and it was repre- 
sented as being directly opposed, not only to native feeling and opinion, 
but to the direct religious injunctions of its shastres. The question was 
referred to me, as many similar questions were in those days, and I at 
once consulted the Pundits of Calcutta, Nuddea, and Benares, as to the 
religious bearings of the matter. Those learned men gave nearly con- 
current testimony on the subject ; upon perceiving which I referred the 
whole to my tried and valued friend Pundit Eshman Chundra Bid- 
gasagur, a man who would be illustrious in any country in which great 
learning, united to lofty patriotism and purity of life, were valued. It was 
clearly shown that there was nothing in vaccination opposed to the reli- 
gious tenets or national feelings of the Hindoos, and that, if the requisite 
agency and material could be found, its compulsory introduction would not 
be resisted. The consequence is that vaccination has extended very largely 
in the country, the old hereditary inoculators are now generally employed 
as vaccinators, and a large amount of benefit has been afforded to the 
people, in a direction in which popular ignorance and mischievous 
agitation have still to be overcome in England. There can be no doubt, 
then, I hope, of the justice of Sir Bartle Frere's inference, that the 
success of the government of Munro, the Elphinstones, and many other 
men of great reputation in India, was due to their wise and just practice 
of consulting the feelings of the people respecting their prejudices and 
o;)inions. To introduce such a system generally in the ruling of 
India, it appears to me to be absolutely necessary, in the first place, for 
the English ruling class to acquire the confidence and affection of the 
natives of the country, to associate freely with them on equal terms, and 
thus to make personal friends of them. Who can doubt the result of 
such a course as this ? Early in my career in India I became acquainted 
with a quiet, unobtrusive, imperfectly educated, thoroughly honest, 
large-hearted Englishman, whose very name has probably never been 
heard in this room. The late David Hare was a humble watchmaker, 
who devoted the whole of his spare time, all the money he made, and 
untiring energy after business hours, to the education and welfare of the 
natives of Calcutta. He visited them in their own homes, he gave them 
friendly and fatherly advice whenever it was needed, and he gained so 

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thoroughly their confidence and affection that thousands followed him to 
the grave, which, by his own desire, was placed within the precincts of 
the first great college in India — ^the late Hindoo College of Calcutta — an 
institution which owed much of its high character and prosperity to his 
benevolent exertions, A statue was raised to his honour, and to this day 
the anniversary of his death is marked by the grateful natives, who 
meet together to commemorate his virtues and to express reverence for his 
memory. It was greatly by this good man's personal influence, in its infancy, 
that the progress made in education has led to the establishment of uni- 
versities in India, and to the extension of the university system through- 
out that great empire. Sir Mordaunt Wells appears to think that the 
state of general education in India is so low as to render the adoption of 
Bir Bartle Frere's principle of representation in village and district 
councils of doubtful use at present. As regards the great body of the 
•people, he is, I think, right, for, in statistics which I collected carefully 
of more than a million of the criminal population, I found that ninety- 
three per cent, were entirely uninstructed, a majority of the remainder 
could only read and write, and but three per cent, were fairly educated 
for their position in life. If time permitted, I believe I could show you 
that these numbers are probably a correct indication of the state of the 
population generally in regard to instruction. But of the class of 
educated natives it is impossible to speak in the same terms, for they are 
well qualified in every respect to take a much larger and more important 
share in the government of their country than is at present accorded to 
them. Take, for example, as typical examples, the native judges now 
sitting on the bench of the High Court of Calcutta, and it would be 
'difficult anywhere to find more learned, upright, and able administrators 
of the highest judicial powers. Take, again, the native bar throughout 
thfe country, of whom the best members would do honour even to West- 
minster Hall, as an eminent chief justice has told us. To go a step 
lower, have we not a singularly efficient body of educated natives holding 
the chief executive offices in the revenue and judicial administration of 
the country ? I do not hesitate to state my opinion that, but for the 
ability, integrity, industry, and great local and general knowledge of the 
excellent body referred to, the whole judicial and revenue administration 
of the country would collapse utterly. It would be idle to doubt that 
those who fill so efficiently the lower offices would not discharge with " 
equal zeal and success the duties of the highest offices of those depart- 
ments. With respect to the details of the scheme proposed by Sir 
Bartle Frere, I do not feel qualified to express any very decided 
opinion until I hear what the natives themselves say to it, for they 
alone are competent to determine the question. In dealing with so 

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ancient a society and civilisation as those of India^ it is, however, 
right in all circumstances to build upon existing foundations, and to 
avoid all violent changes and disruptions. But; beyond and above 
all, if India is to be ruled from this country, as seems to be the 
prevailing feeling of statesmen, a feeling of which I take leave to 
doubt the prudence and propriety, it is absolutely necessary that Eng* 
land should rise to a knowledge of the fact that the government of 
the vast Eastern Empire has been entrusted by Providence to Great 
Britain for a higher principle than to grow cotton for Lancashire, to send 
jute to Leeds and Bradford, to form a training-school for warriors and 
administrators) or to enable enterprising merchants and planters to 
realise fortunes from her rich and teeming soil. The object is, I hope, 
to raise the people in the scale^ of nations, to educate and civilise the 
masses, as - well as to aflford the means of instruction to the higher 
classes, to provide a career for the gentlemen, noblemen, and princes of 
the country, to whom a fitting share in controlling the destiny of the 
land is at present denied ; by more just and prudent laws to render 
justice accessible to all, and to afford due protection to life and property; 
to let the cultivator enjoy his lot in peace and plenty j and to raise 
the revenues necessary for the purposes of imperial and local government 
in such ways as shall interfere least with the comfort and 'happiness of 
the people. In fact, gradually and surely to educate the people of India 
in the great and abiding work of self-government, until, in the fulness of 
time, England may gracefully retire with the consciousness that she has 
discharged her duty righteously, faithfully, and without misgiving as to 
the future welfare of the country, from which she will part as a prudent 
and loving mother leaves her children when they go forth to fight the 
great battle of life for themselves. The saying (which has been quoted 
by Sir Bartle Frere) of that incarnation of common sense, the great 
Duke of Wellington, is as true now as it was when he uttered it. I am 
quite sure that so long as they are not rack-rented or oppressed either by 
Government or by their own landlords, and so long as they are permitted 
to enjoy the fruits of the earth in peace, there is no people with whom I 
am acquainted who are so thoroughly philosophical and indifferent as to 
the exact form of government under which they live. I speak from a 
personal acquaintance of the greatest and most important province of 
India, extending over a period of thirty years, in which time I have 
. repeatedly visited every portion of it. I trust sincerely that the discus- 
sion of the matter, so ably advocated by Sir Bartle Frere, will eventually 
lead to important practical results, in extending the employment of 
Tiatives of India in the government of that country in the only way in 
which it can be well and properly governed-^viz., by acting in conformity 

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with the wishes, feelings, and, to some extent, the ancient customs of the 

Mr. Kazi Shahabudin. — There is a slight misconception in what Sir 
Mordaunt Wells said respecting the evidence of a native before the 
Select Committee of the House of Commons. I am the only native yet 
examined by that Committee. Sir Mordaunt Wells' remarks, therefore, 
apply to my evidence. I am represented to have said, in reply to 
questions respecting the Bengal educational cess,. that I would set aside 
education altogether rather than see such a cess levied. The fact is that, 
in answer to questions from the Committee, I said the cultivators in the 
Bombay Presidency, with whom Government had made revenue settle- 
ments for thirty years, regard the imposition of the one-anna cess after 
such settlements ag a breach of faith. I was further asked, What 
should the Government do to obtain funds for education, &€. ? I replied 
that they should get out of the difficulty in some other way instead of 
breaking their word, and that even the obnoxious income-tax would be a 
lesser evil than a measure which involved a breach of faith. This is the 
sentiment which I expressed before the Committee, and to which I shall 
always adhere. As to the spread of education, so far from being opposed 
to it, I consider it to be the best remedy for all the evils that can 
be conceived. 

Dr. MuLLiNS — I feel very diflfident in uttering any opinions on this 
momentous question, because I have not been able to attend the previous 
meetings, and can therefore only gather the general tone of the discus- 
sion. But, speaking from my own experience, which has extended over 
many years in India, I venture to say there are two things that are 
before us in this question. First, How shall we become acquainted with 
the views of the natives on all great questions which affect their interests; 
and then follows the question, What form are you willing to allow the 
opinion to take in the future ? We have had both of these questions 
placed before us to day. Dr. Mouat just now clearly pointed out the 
mode in which, on certain occasions and crises in his experience, he wad 
enabled to obtain a knowledge of the opinions which were held by the 
natives ; and in respect to the questions of anatomy and vaccination, he 
showed the great value of the course which was adopted. These illus- 
trations show us that even now there are certain methods by which we 
- can obtain native opinion as to their views of given questions, although 
there is no doubt that there may be improvements which we should like 
to see adopted hereafter. I can quite concur with the speakers who have 
preceded me in thinking that the first thing to be done in order to secure 
a fair and free opinion of the natives is to maintain a constantly affec- 
tionate and friendly intercourse with them, so as to secure their con- 

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fideiTce, and induce them to acquaint you with their real views. In 
many respects the natives have been trained by circumstances, existing 
through many generations, to be suspicious and distrustful of persons 
who approach them ; but even now you have only to go to the native 
with an honest, open heart, and he will hardly fail to meet you, and 
«how that he is quite willing to meet you frankly, and to give expres- 
sion to his views on the subject upon which you address him. I believe 
that naturally -a more amiab'e people does not exist. In travelling about 
Bengal, often alone, or accompanied by no one but my own family, and 
being miles and miles away from any Europeans, I have never ex- 
perienced the slightest difficulty among the native population, nor have 
I ever failed to secure help or hospitality from the villages through 
which I had occasion to pass. I had only to let the people know and 
see that I was there with no desire but the promotion of their welfare, 
and, aided with my thorough acquaintance with their own language 
(an acquisition of inestimable value in intercourse with the natives 
of India), I was enabled to acquaint myself intimately with their 
manners and customs and prejudices, so as to avoid injuring their 
sensitiveness in respect to their habits. By this attitude I was 
always certain of being received cordially and hospitably; and I 
firmly believe that we have only to be careful not to over&tep the bounds 
of delicacy in respect to their feelings, and, by acquiring their language, 
qualify ourselves for a study of their manners, to ensure that our en- 
deavour to evince an interest in their welfare will always be sure of a 
warm and hearty reception. Now, what are the methods by which we 
can procure an efficient knowledge of the ideas and prejudices of the 
natives ? For myself I have always considered a perusal of the native 
newspapers to be highly advantageous. Their editors are generally some 
of the most prominent and best-educated men in the country, and as such 
they are exponents of the modem native school of thought. In some of 
the old Indian editors, such as we used to have thirty years ago, you 
have a view of the opinions held by the old Pundit class, so we have now 
a means of learning the views of both the old and modem schools of 
thought — ^the latter being one which has grown so strongly as to become 
of the deepest interest to us, and which must be carefully observed by us, 
because, I think, we have many important things to leara in the present 
transition state of things. There are other methods of estimating native 
opinion which would be highly effective if carried into proper operation, 
and among the most effectual is the association of native members, not 
only in the local councils, but also in the interior council of Calcutta. 
In considering the question of what means we are willing to adopt in esta- 
blishing the mode by which we can estimate the views of the natives, 

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there is one point whicli we ought specially to keep in mind, I think 
the methods proposed for adoption would all turn upon the end which we 
hare in view. If you adopt Dr. Mouat's opinion you must be prepared 
to see the natives come forward in the executive and taking a large share 
in the legislation of the country ; you must be prepared to take them 
and train them into intelligent habits of self-government in municipal in- 
stitutions and in the management of their own local affairs ; and you 
must be prepared to look forward to the day when we shall see liiem 
independent, and in friendly and loving connexion with the mother 
country which has watched over them for generations. If these are the 
views of those who initiate a scheme of native councils there will be 
little difficulty in shaping out the methods by which to obtain public 
opinion on matters of native interest. As a missionary, that is precisely 
my position; because, in building a Christian church in India, which 
shall elevate, enlighten, and train the people to self-government in matters 
of religion, we look forward to the time when, in due course, we English- 
men — ^the foreign missionary element which commenced the work — -may 
be able to retire and leave the Church to manage for itself. Are the poli- 
ticians of India prepared to take a similar step ? If they are, and if they say 
their desire is to lead the natives forward to self-government and friendly 
connections or federal associations with the British Empire, you will 
have a clear end in view and a notable task to perform. In establishing 
the machinery of native councils there are various methods which might 
be adopted, and although the details cannot be discussed here, they 
would be of great importance in ensuring a successful issue to the ex-^ 
periments. I should hold this to be true in political as in religious 
matters, that you cannot legislate or act on the assumption that the 
whole of the natives of India form one people of 150 millions. They 
are divided into numerous sections by sects, by caste, by different 
interests, by physical and social circumstances, and in a variety of other 
ways ; and the result is that you have different stages of development in 
civilisation and enlightenment, and consequently a widely-varying ability 
of judgment in respect to public affairs. A mode of procedure would be 
necessary in the Northern Provinces of India, where the civilisation is 
generally higher, differing, perhaps, materially from that which could be 
adopted in the less civilised districts of the South ; and among the hill 
tribes a still lower degree of enlightenment would require a still different 
treatment. It is evident that you cannot apply the same principles 
uniformly to a people differing so widely in respect to civilisation and 
intelligence ; you must deal with each district according to its circum- 
stances. You can give the people of Bombay and Calcutta, and 
perhaps a few other great cities, the power of electing men who will bq 

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fitted to' assist in the discussion of the highest problems of government 
and political science — men who have been trained to consider these 
questions, and who bring to the task education and intellect. In the 
towns of Upper India, in Agra, Allahabad, Serampore, Umritsur, Ban- 
galore, and other similar towns of the North, you could apply a principle 
which could not be extended to the provinces of Southern India ; and 
you could not put the opinion of the latter on a par with the opinions of 
such cities as Bombay, Calcutta, or towns similarly circumstanced, where 
there is less of that absence of public spirit which is so mournfully, 
visible throughout India, and which is so deeply regretted by all who. 
desire the welfare of the country. All over the peninsula, but especially 
in the South, there is a deplorable want of knowledge and public spirit 
— ^too little self-denial in giving time to public service for the general, 
benefit of the community. In respect to such a people it must of 
necessity be that less attention should be paid to their opinions than to 
those in a more advanced condition ; and discrimination must be 
exercised between the recommendations of public opinion in India, due 
weight being given to the consideration of the knowledge and experience 
of the district whence it emanates, and to the position it has been accus- 
tomed to take in relation to, the great national questions which have 
eome before the country. 

Dr. Ghose. — I wish only to make a few remarks with reference to 
those institutions which are now in existence in India, and which have 
for their professed purpose the initiation or admission of natives into the 
acquirement of self-government — I refer to the municipal councils of the 
towns; to the principle of giving seats in the Legislative Council to. 
distinguished natives ; and to the encouragement of the native newspaper 
press. These are the three means which have been actually adopted ta 
train the natives of India to acquire the ability to exercise self^-govern- 
ment, and they are beyond a doubt very good so far as they go. But, 
nevertheless, they are each accompanied by serious defects, which greatly 
mar and hinder their progress. First, in regard to the municipal 
councils, they are not at all representative in their character or constitu- 
tion ; and assemblies such as these cannot be said in any way to reflect 
the opinions of the people. It is true that there are native members 
appointed, but they are nominated, and the nominations are generally 
made by the local officials. Consequently these men have no really 
representative capacity in their character ; and, together with the native 
pfficials and the rich resident European — an indigo planter, probably — 
with an occasional zemindar, they fprm a municipal council which in no 
degree reflects the opinions or desires of the people whom they are sup- 
posed to represent. The native officials are generally educated young 

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men ; and the remainder of the assembly, so far as the natives are 
concerned, is made up by men of considerably less intelligence and 
education. 80 that these two classes — the native official and the 
native nominee — ^are completely subservient to the European official 
element, which they cannot and dare not oppose, and which they 
fear to offend by giving an adverse vote. I speak not without ex- 
perience on this matter, for I was a member of one of the principal 
municipal councils^ Fortunately in this case the council of which I was 
a member happened to include a few young men who, although they were 
officials, had yet the courage to exhibit some public spirit ; and there 
were also two lawyers who were not dependent on the officials for favour. 
We were consequently enabled to offer some opposition to the European 
officials, and when any subject was under discussion we were accustomed 
to pass a paper round for the members to write down their opinions on 
the matter in hand. In that way we were able to get some valuable 
independent opinion which otherwise would not have been elicited, owing 
to the fact that the members — especially the non-official ones, who were 
persons without education, and chiefly landholders dependent on the 
favour of the Government officials— did not possess the courage to say 
anything against the officials of the Board. By the adoption of some 
such plan as this I am sure you would make the municipal councils 
much more satisfactory than they are at present, and they would more 
truly represent the feelings of the people. It was suggested by Sir 
William Muir that it would be a good education for representation if the 
municipal councils of the North-west Provinces were formed by election, 
and, without going to anything like so great an extension as universal 
suffrage, I think this is what is wanted to interest the people in public 
affairs. As it is, the people, and especially the poorer classes, who form 
the mass of the community, while passively yielding to the officials who 
are imposed upon them by the Government, look upon the Government 
as an alien one, in whose conduct they have no interest. Nor will their 
opinions change so long as you permit the majority of the municipal 
councils to be formed by European officials or persons under their con- 
trol. In respect to the Indian native press I think it unfortunate that 
we cannot have a stronger native press. Its present limited influence is 
due to the preponderance of the Anglo-Indian newspapers, which are 
edited by gentlemen who usually take a view adverse to the opinions of 
the natives ; but as their newspapers are generally better conducted, and 
engage the services of the most skilful writers, their circulation is ex- 
tended, to the depreciation of the native papers, which are less in- 
telligently conducted and which do not thrive under such adverse cir- 
cumstances. Personally acquainted as I am with more than one editor 

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of natnre newspap cf B^ I am sftiaafefL that I bare represented their general 
complaint, which, although perhaps unavoidable, i» noi less substantial. /v , 
In respect to the Legislative Council I think the same error exists as i& to f 
be found in the municipal councils. Certainly natives are summoned to 
deats on the Legislative Council, but they are generally men who are far 
from representing the opinions of the intelligent people ; they are generally 
obsolete old princes or uneducated zemindars. As an instance of what 
might compose the native element in the Legislative Council I would 
point to the native gentleman now sitting as judge in the High Court. 
Would he not be a useful member of the Council of Government? 
Is he not capable of giving sound opinions respecting civil laws, 
taxation, and administration? And, if so — and the fact must be 
admitted by all — ^why is he not selected? Simply, I believe, because 
it is thought that he would be a dangerous enemy to the Govern- 
ment. (Expressions of dissent in the meeting.) It may not be the 
truth that this is the cause, but in stating it I know I express the 
native opinion of Bengal ; and, indeed, the fact shows much cause for 
dissatisfaction and suspicion. Why should old and effete princes, who have 
no idea of beneficial legislation, or of political economy, or of enlightened 
jurisprudence, occupy seats to the exclusion of really intelligent and well- 
educated men ? Why should they continue in a position whose duties 
they seldom even pretend to fill, except to either give votes of trivial 
importance or votes which effect more harm than good, and who are per- 
suaded to attend to make a sort of dumb show of legislation ? I think 
it is the duty of the Government and of all Europeans to take every 
pains to dissipate all suspicion from the minds of the natives, and to that 
end the officials must be very careful as to the measures they initiate, 
and as to the mode in which they endeavour to carry them into effect ; 
for upon this latter much depends — officials being too often addicted to 
carrying matters with a high hand without taking any pains to explain 
them to the people. The result is the deepening of prejudice and an 
increased difficulty for the future. It is true that ninety-nine persons 
out of one hundred are without education, ; but it must not be forgotten 
that they are still human beings, and their feelings and prejudices must 
be consulted if legislation is to be really beneficial to them. Were the 
native population sufficiently educated to manage their own affairs they 
would insist upon governing themselves, and it would be impossible to 
resist the demands of an educated people of 150 millions, and no foreign 
power could continue to govern them under such conditions. Native 
intelligence would not be able to bear the presence of a foreign govern- 
ment, so that England, in initiating the beginnings of self-government 
of India among the native population^ should carefully observe the feel- 

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ings of tte people, and judiciously yield to their desires wherever it is in 
any way practicable. In doing this it is evidently of great importance 
that in the councils really native opinion should be represented, and that 
men should be selected for membership whose experience is large, and 
who express the sentiments of the masses of their countrymen. Such a 
Course is the Government's only safeguard against error and injustice, 
and the office cannot be performed by Englishmen. Englishmen do not 
know the real condition of the country, or the real opinions of the people, 
and, therefore, it is absolutely necessary that they should have some one 
to advise them on all matters which affect native interest, and to suggest 
legislation suited to the condition of the country. This would lead to 
self-government, and to the education of the natives to a sense of re- 
sponsibility. Of course no one expects, and no one desires, to establish- 
forthwith a system like that which is to be found in England — a system 
of parliamentary government — but the aim should be to give effectual 
independence with the principle of federation. This, however, with 
many other matters, is for the future ; the present duty of the Govern- 
ment is to secure native opinion, and to inculcate principles of self- 
government. And this, I think, may wisely be done on the plan pro- 
posed by Sir Bartle Frere. 

Mr. DicKiNBOK. — The remarks of the last speaker induce me to 
offer a few observations which, otherwise, I should not have ventured to 
make. The question before the meeting is indeed a very large one ; 
and, in considering it, many subsidiary subjects arise which have an 
important bearing upon it. Public opinion appears to me to be of no 
value unless it can show itself in some form of action. It is valuable in 
this country because it makes itself felt through its representatives in 
Parliament and elsewhere, and it thus becomes effectual; so that by 
observing its dictates a Government is generally successful, A great 
many of the observations which have been made respecting the views of 
the natives in regard to the operations of the Indian, Government have 
ignored this principle. They have been addressed rather to the point of 
ascertaining the opinion of natives — ^whether, for instance, this or that 
form of taxation is more or less . disliked — than to giving the natives 
a voice in the imposition of taxes and the expenditure of the public 
revenue. It is objected to schemes like that before us now that Western 
ideas are not adapted to Indian habits and modes of thought. But, on 
the other hand, we can only carry out successfully those principles of 
government with which we are familiar, and which we believe to be 
sound, and we should fail if we attempted any other method than one in 
which we have been educated, and which we understand ; and, conse- 
quently, in building up the fabric of .government in the East, we had 

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iiEAJSfa OF ASCMRTAimm fublig ofinIon. t6t 

better adapt to that work principles and institutions with which we are 
acquainted, and in which we have faith. "What we have done in India 
with a view of eliciting a reliable public opinion which shall bear upon 
the administration of government has, however, just been declared to be 
nothing better than a sham ; and it is because the previous speaker thus 
alluded to it that I have risen now. Take, for instance, the municipal 
government, The principle should be to allow the villages to manage 
their own affairs, and to extend their knowledge by taking part in the 
management of a district in the way Sir Bartle Frere suggests, and so 
to gradually build up a self-governing body, the money for whose purr- 
poses might be partly furnished by the Government and partly by the 
locality, and be administered by the municipality or district, subject to 
the supervision of the Government.. Is that the case now 7 The rer 
marks of the last speaker have been quite sufficient to indicate that there 
is no real grant to the people of the right to manage their own affairs, 
but that the members of the Councils derive their authority from the 
Government, have an- official, and not a representative character, and 
have no indep^dence of action* !His is not the way to obtain the ex- 
pression of public opinion ; it is a sham representation. It is true that 
of late years there has been introduced into the Legislative Councils 
what may appear something like a representative principle j but it is 
simply a nominee system, and I do not believe that the members so 
nominated have any right of initiative, bnt are consultative only. Not 
that I think the time has come, or is near at hand, for India to govern 
itself, or to send representatives to an Indian Parliament ; but th« 
object we should keep steadily in view is to educate the country to that 
ultimate form of national life, Indian nationality at present does not 
exist ; India is nothing more than a conglomeration of tribes, religious 
castes, with varying interests, and with ideas often strongly opposed to 
each oHier ; and it is for us to weld them into a great and united 
nation. As regards the constitution of the Legislative Council, I some- 
times think we might follow with advantage our own historical prece- 
dents, and gradually introduce something of a representative system. 
If, for instance, instead of Government nominating councillors, writs 
were issued to some of the great towns to send deputies to the Supreme 
Council, by that means you would be doing something to create a public 
opinion. Eut in a scheme like this — and indeed in any great work — it 
is absolutely necessary that you should have faith in your own prin- 
ciples ; and if you have faith in the principle of representative govern- 
ment (which I believe is the only sound principle of government, ;f 
properly carried out by degrees and with caution — in small things at 
ib:at'<>« certain of success)-*:let it be tried honestly and faurly. 


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But the Western intelligence that administers gOTemment in India is, I 
am afraid, chiefly official and bureaucratic, and has no great faith in re^ 
presentative institutions even in their own country ; and, as a conse- 
quence the principle has, as yet, been only tried with a want of heart 
and spirit, which, even if there were no <5ther obstacles, would have 
endangered its success. The point,- therefore, which I desire to impress 
upon the meeting is, that where we are, as in India, attempting the 
introduction of an institution which was to have brought upon it 
the force of opinion external to and beyond ttiat of the governing 
class, it is of the greatest importance that it should be a reality, and 
not a sham. Do not place reliance where you have reason to think you 
V^ill be misled ; but if you profess to have faith and confidence, act 
boldly in accordance with your professions heartily and honestly, and 
invite confidence by showing it yourselves. As regards the remarks 
which the speaker who preceded me offered in reference to the character 
and influence of the Indian native press, I think the native newspapers 
must be left to take care of themselves. On this point I will only add 
the obvious reflection, that when a newspaper does not succeed, it is 
most probably due to one of two causes : the journal either exhibits 
a want of intelligence in its conduct, or. it does not hit the right 
tone of public feeling ; and in either alternative its fate calls for ho 

General Sir G. Le Grand Jacob. — I regret that my broken health 
has kept me away from our previous meetings to discuss this subject; 
for as one who for a period of fifty years has always felt the deepest inter 
Irest in the welfare of the people of India, and whose public life has been 
«pent amongst them, I was anxious to express the gratitude that I feel 
^e all owe to Sir Bartle Frere for bringing before ns a subject so 
eminently worthy of consideration. Not having heard the discussion, I 
must limit my remarks to the printed paper issued by the Council. I 
quite agree with the spirit of Sir Bartle Frere' s proposals; and I go 
'heartily with him in conceiving the village community as forming thiB 
•nucleus of anything like a representative system' that may hereafter be 
'formed in India. In fact it is already the representative body of the 
locality ; but I think it is quite premature to attempt to carry out such a 
scheme now, or to suppose that India is yet ripe for anything resembling 
the electoral body of our own country. A native gentleman from Bengal 
who has just spoken has told you that even amongst the educated there 
'is generally no sufficient independence of character to give their real 
opinions when asked for. If such is the state of native society at tk« 
head-quarters of civilisation, it is not to be expected that we can esta- 
*blish anything like a House of Commons for India; and the time for 

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it is probably far distant. . Still we want to press upon the Government, 
the necessity of ascertaining in some- more or less efficient way the 
opinions and feelings of the natives in respect to legislation ; and I may 
be permitted to know something of the importance of this, for I was en- 
gaged during two years in investigating the causes of the great rebellion 
of 1857-58, and I attribute it to the utter disregard of native opinion ; 
to the Government's trampling upon the feelings of the people, so as 
to excite great exasperation ; and this led to the great and terrible ex- 
plosion. If there had been any attempt to ascertain native opinion 
upon such acts as interference with the law of adoption the mutiny 
would never have occuiTed. Yet the Government appeared to be quite 
ignorant that if you searched India from Cape Comorin to the Himalayas 
you would not find a dozen natives— of course I don't mean time-servers 
— ^who did not regard the refusal to acknowledge an adopted son as 
a blow to the whole fabric of Hindoo society. And yet, so ignorant, or 
so obstinately blind were the Government, as to be guided only by the 
plausible Englishmen who, among other specious but shallow reasonings, 
made much of a so-called law of lapse — ^the very thing the law of adop- 
tion was created to prevent. It was the law of ancient civilisations : the 
Romans permitted it ; and, it is in fact based on a most natural feeling ; 
in the eyes of an Indian the right to adopt is as much his as the right to 
marry. And yet we claimed the right to refuse to sanction it, and, 
having thus abolished the legal heir, constituted our own nation the heir 
instead, only, however, when it was deemed profitable so to do ; this, I 
believe, was one of the main causes that led to the entire separation of 
Hindoo feeling from their governors. There were of course causes, all 
of which may be traced to the same ignorance or disregard of native 
opinion — such as abolishing or changing Hindoo laws and usages pre- 
maturely. These impolitic measures, combined with some financial 
grievances, assisted to deepen the native conviction that our Govern- 
ment were bent on the destruction, root and branch, of the Hindoo 
aristocracy gentry and of their cherished belief. Religious persons. Ma- 
hommedan as well as Hindoo, are always traversing the land, thus every 
facility was afforded to the disinherited and the discontented to spread 
the contagion of distrust and disaffection, and especially to work upon 
the feelings of our sepoys, who naturally sympathised with their fellow- 
countrymen. Thus the feeling of distrust grew general throughout the 
land. But for this the greased cartridge would at the worst have set 
on fire a few isolated groups, but it could never have caused the great, 
conflagration of 1857. It is obvious, therefore, how necessary it is 
to ascertain and consult the native opinion, and this duty should in 
every possible way be impressed on the Government of the countiy ; for 

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this reason, it is very satisfactory to find that one of the ruling body-— a 
distinguished public servant — ^hjis himself come forward to suggest a 
plan for ascertaining native opinion, thus showing that he is fully alive 
to the importance of the subject. 

Mr. J. M. Ludlow. — While I should feel disposed to agree most 
heartily with most of the suggestions made in Sir Bartle Frere's address, 
there is, it seems to me, one point which, although latent in them, 
has not been sufficiently brought out — I mean the real strength of public 
opinion in India. So far from there being no public opinion, I. should 
say that if there is one country in the world where this is strong it is in 
India, for upon it rests the whole fabric of caste observances, maintained 
as it has been through centuries of foreign domination, and that of a 
character often actively hostile to it. Again, in respect to the village 
communities and councils, nothing seems to me more remarkable than- 
the way in which they have- subsisted in Bengal — ^for instance, even wh«tt 
not only ignored by, but unknown, to the Government; and, more 
extraordinary still, that they should through a long series of generations 
have maintained an organisation which is now the administration of 
very able men. Surely in a political mechanism of this kind, maintain- 
ing itself quite outside of the law, we have another illustration of th« 
force and persistency of public opinion in India. The question is, there- 
fore, not that of creating a public' opinion where none exists, but how to 
control and modify, and du^ect to new purposes one of tremendous power, 
but stationary, and in a great measure directed against us. That the 
opinion of the natives is an auxiliary which might often be very usefully 
utilised has been proved by the instances given by Dr. Mouat and other 
speakers ; and I can confirm from a case which is familiar to me the fact 
that they are willing to accept suggestions and improvements when suit* 
ably explained to them by those in whom they have confidence. Every one 
knows that the Government of India has introduced a system of registra- 
tion of deeds, and many may also know that on its introduction into the 
Madras Presidency it was looked upon in many places with great sus- 
picion, as being probably a mere vehicle for a new tax ; but in that very 
presidency, years before it was introduced by officials, my uncle, the late 
Mr. T. Carnal Brown, of Tellicherry, established a private registry on 
his own estate, which was resorted to by the natives from a distance of 
twenty miles of his neighbourhood ; and by the payment • of a small 
fee very beneficial results were obtained without the slightest aid from 
officials, but m'erely out of the natives' willingness to accept any practical 
suggestions of advantage to them ; and in this way, maintained merely 
by the force of public opinion, it remained at work till it merged into the 
Government System. I am convinced that similar xesults might be 

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obtained everywhere in India, were Englishmen to take the pains to 
acquaint themselves with the usages of the natives, and evince an in- 
terest in their welfare and progress* As respects the village commu- 
nities, I am extremely delighted to see them now looked at, not merely in 
reference to the tenure of land and the incidence of the land-tax, as was 
the case not so very long ago, but in their social and political bearings 
the village councils form^ as Sir Bartle Frere points out, the ultimate 
atom of the political state of India. By building upon this foundation 
as far as may be, and recognising, restoring, recovering it where it has 
been obliterated by time — and this could be done without much difficulty 
— ^you will, and when alone, be able to erect a satisfactory structure of 
Government, in harmony with the habits and genius of the people* I do 
not feel qualified to express an opinion on the precise details of Sir 
Bartle Prere's plan ; but as to the interest which may be taken by intel- 
ligent natives, other than those whom we have moulded ourselves by 
education, in the system of political representation under its most highly 
cultivated form, I may venture to give an instance. Some years ago I 
was on friendly terms with a native gentleman, the late Rungo Bapojee, 
who was in this country as vakeel of the Rajah of Sattara. Mr* 
Hume had procured for him admissions to the Foreign Ministers' Gallery 
in the House of Commons, and from attending the debates — ^at first, only 
when his master's affairs were discussed — ^he acquired such a taste for our 
Parliamentary system, that after a time, even when the business upon 
which his visit originated was not on, he still attended, out of pure 
delight at witnessing the strifes of statesmen ; and he used to say — for 
it was long, very long, ere he despaired of English justice towards his 
masters: ^* When I get back, and the Rajah is restored, we must have 
a Parliament in Sattara;" giving as a reason that "by this means 
everything is known, and we must hear both sides." This was only 
a fair specimen of the better class of his race, a high-caste Mahratta, 
who kept his caste to the last, drawing his own water from a pump 
in the street, when all his native servants had left him. His education 
was not exceptional ; he knew no English before coming to this country, 
learned to write it while here in mature age, and never acquired the 
capacity of speaking it fluently. But, nevertheless, he showed that 
he had in him the most perfect appreciation of representative govern- 
ment, and for the exercise of statesmanship on that principle; and, 
speaking generally, I have little doubt that in the best parts of native 
society, even where it has been untinged with English views, a similar 
appreciation of the principle would be developed, if once a field for 
exercise could be supplied. 

Sir Bartle Frere. — I should like to make a few remarks on the 

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subject of this discussion before it is concluded ; and, first of all, I tbink 
the Association may be congratulated on the discussion which this 
question has elicited. I believe it is likely to prove very useful, and I 
am sure that, in more than one point, it has been a very informing one. 
There can be no doubt, as was observed by Sir Mordaunt Wells, that the 
question is in itself a most momentous one, and in its ultimate bearings 
it has a great deal to do with the question of representation. But that 
to my mind is a question considerably in the distance; I will not 
pretend to say how many years it may be, but it is still far off. Suffice 
it now, however, to say, that it is not the immediate question I had in 
view, which was one applicable for the present time, even to this present 
year in which we now live. For it is as necessary that we should know 
what the people of India think and wish as it is necessary that we 
should know public opinion in this country. No doubt this necessity 
must, sooner or latter, lead to the existence of representation. But I 
should like you to look upon the question as it bears upon the existing 
machinery of government. Everywhere you find it is confessed that in 
these days we are not so well able as we were in former times to know 
what the people wish or think ; and although it might be thought that 
the means of expression have been greatly increased, yet, in fact, our 
need of them increases at an infinitely greater rate, so that we do not get 
the voice of the people of India, regarding their own wants and wishes, 
as quickly or as accurately as is desirable. And this brings me to a 
point which has been noticed by one of the speakers. He remarked that 
he was constantly met by the question, " Why can't you let things 
alone ?" And I should like this question to be well pondered over by 
those who have anything to say in carrying out these views into practical 
action. Let them consider this absolute fact, that you cannot "let 
things alone." As long as you are under no necessity for touching the 
pockets of the people, you may, perhaps, leave such questions to slumber 
for years ; but directly you begin to impose new taxes you raise a multi- 
tude of questions which cannot be answered unless you know something 
of the people — ^what they think, and how far they are prepared to back 
their opinions with their money, or with such moral or physical arguments 
as it may be in their power to use — ^whether, in fact, what they say is mere 
outcry and clamour, or whether it involves resistance and resolute oppo- 
sition. Because, sooner or later, it must come to this when you impose 
a new tax ; and this is a very momentous question, which has presented 
itself to me for solution more than once during my experience in India 
— ^you must know whether such a question of new taxation is one upon 
which the people will give way, or whether it is one upon which they will 
resist you to the last These are the questions which really try the govem- 

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inent and try the people in all countries and ages. Mr. Dickinson has most 
truly said that upon this point we can have no shams, and it is worse than 
useless to get an agency which shall deceive us in this matter. If we are 
not prepared to give erfectual, practical weight to the people's desires we 
had better let the question slumber — if it will slumber — ^but I do not believe 
it will. This brings me to another question — ^whether the people are fit 
for any such change as I have ventured to indicate. More than one 
speaker in the course of the discussion has said he conceives we must 
wait until education has become more generally diffused. ' Another says 
you cannot trust the public spirit of the natives of India or their desire 
to make themselves heard. I do not agree in either of these opinions 
regarding the natives of India. But' these are questions which, seem t<J 
me to be quite apart from the main question at issue. It seems to 
ine that, whether educated or uneducated, you/must take the people 
as they are, and must learn. what they want. If the opinion is an unedu- 
cated one so much the worse for you, and so much the more dangerous 
for you to delay in learning all you can about it. So that, if for 
no other reason, I should on this ground entirely agree with those gen- 
tlemen who have urged that it is 'above all things necessary in carrying 
out any measures which we have in view to educate the people. But do 
not wait until you have educated the people, do not say that they 
are unlettered, and that, therefore, their opinions are not worth hjearing. 
Hear them at any rate, and if they are educated pay them every atten- 
tion ; but if uneducated still hear them, and have a good care that you 
do not disregard what their ill-directed and uneducated opinions, ma^ 
drive theni to do. Some one has remarked' that in order to effect 
any good result by any measures for ascertaining the opinions of the 
natives you must separate the natives from the Europeans. I cannot 
•help thinking that this is a most short-sighted view of the question. Tb 
some extent discussion must lead to the fcrmulating of opinions which 
are yet in embryo, and so far our object should be, as far as possible, nc^t 
to separate the natives from ourselves, and from those who think with 
the Government, nor to separate the well-informed from the less-in- 
formed, but to let the better-informed instruct the less-informed, and in 
this manner to influence the general opinion. But, whatever you do, 
hy no means separate those educated according to Western opinions from 
those educated in Eastern principles. I think we need not considei' this 
a mere matter of theory, because I have observed in more than one 
position that I have occupied — and I am sure Sir Mordaunt Weljs and 
Mr. Fitzwilliam, who have sat with me in Indian Councils,, wjll agr^e 
with me — that you are well able to get opinions from the natives 
when they «re associated with Europeans. I feel sure that any otie 

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who really understands the natives, and has really tried to ascer- 
tain their opinions, will agree with me that when a native sees 
that he is allowed to sit side hy side with an Englishman he soon 
acquires a fair amount of English independence of spirit. And 
allow me to say as an Englishman that though in some respects the 
natives of India are a more pliable people than the Western races, the 
apparent pliability is more often due to a natural politeness and very 
pervading desire to pay attention to the wishes of those with whom they 
are associated. And thus it often happens that what we are apt to consider 
as the subserviency of the Indian poor man is what in an English gentle- 
man we should call his courtesy and consideration for the opinions of 
those with whom he is associated. He does not blurt out and press 
his opinions upon his hearers with the same force that we are often apt 
to do among ourselves. In this respect the Indian is open to the same 
reproach as is sometimes brought against the most refined gentle- 
man among ourselves — namely, that he -shrinks more than is perhaps 
right from saying unpleasant things. But, to turn to another point, it 
is asked what I propose in respect to this fourfold division of councils, 
and how should they respectively act ? On this part of the question 
I should like to make one remark with especial reference to the village 
councils. I need not tell you that, so far are they from being my own 
invention, that they are probably the oldest part of the social organiza- 
tion of India, and the most universal. At this moment even in Bengal, 
where they have been ignored for two or three generations, they still 
exist, and the people meet, and consult and consider, and express 
opinions to one another ; and I feel no doubt they will very soon, if we 
give them good cause for so doing, be taking action to back their 
opinions by making petitions and raising subcriptions, and by opposing 
the action of the Government in some more or less organised form. 
Therefore, I say, take this network of indigenous institutions and make 
use of it. But it may be asked. How is this to be done ? " Surely," it 
has been said, "you would not convert all those who sit in such 
councils into electors for an Indian Parliament ? '* Such a course 
as this, I need hardly assure you, never entered into my idea of what 
was possible, especially if it were attempted in some of the ways which 
have been devised by English Legislatures during the last generation or 
two. But what I would urge is, that you should look first at what the 
village councils can do for their own villages, and we know perfectly well 
that as far as the adminstration of their own village affairs goes you want 
nothing better, as any one who has been a good district officer will at 
once admit. If he wanted anything done in the village, a good district 
officer will tell you that he had only to find out the village's ordinaij 

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advisers, and they could do the business quite perfectly so far as they 
were concerned. I would then have all these parochial duties recoghised 
as an official patt of the system of government ; and to this I would add 
the power to select those who should sit in what we should in England 
call the county boards, which Would help to administer the affairs of the 
district, consisting of from ten or twenty to^ it tnfty be, two hundred 
•villages. The men who would sit on these county boards wotlld not, of 
course, be men who have been educated up to the university standard ; 
they would generally be not much better than village notaries, or active 
and intelligent farmers. But they would do the work required of th^m 
— ^the parish and county work ; and, furthermore, when yoU httVe dotie 
' with theto for these purposes, they will form a very good body frbm 
which to select members for the provincial councils. And I hav0 no 
doubt that in almost all cases the personis elected to such provincial 
councils would be either men of education who have been trained iti the 
schools provided by the Government for the natives, or, if not, if th^y 
were not well-educated men, they would be men of that keen, active, 
intelligent, practical good sense and natural talent which is above all 
price, and which is just the thing you want to secure. In these 
provincial councils you would have in all probability some such 
men who would be able to write their names with difficulty, 
•but you will get from them pithy common*sense opinions worth 
more than mere book learning. These provincial councils would 
' have large and important duties, such as the care of roads, hospitals, 
schools, &c., and I am glad to have the testimony of so experienced 
and so able a witness as Br. Mouat in favour of the inestimable value of 
native assistance in such matters. The provincial work would not only 
be done all the better for such aid, but from these provincial couticfls 
there might be elected in the local legislative councils ten or a do±en 
men, whose opinions would really be wbrth much in making l&ws 
and regulations. A fear has been expressed by one speaker th^t we 
might go too fast and be prematurely swamped, and that the Govern- 
ment nominees would be over-weighted by a number of rather radic^al 
native representative members. But I think there will always be in 
India the sam6 sort of deference that we find in Germany and Prance, 
and which existed in England up to within the memory of our fathers— 
I mean that the mere knowledge that the Government wished a par- 
• ticular thing would in itself be a poWer of immense influence. And, 
therefore, I do not think you need be in the least afraid of having in 
each of the Legislative Councils of Calcutta, Bombay, Madras, Lahore, 
and Agra, ten or a dozen men who have been freely elected by the pro- 
vincial councils, or that you need apprehend th^ir proving disloyal to the 


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170 Mast iNt)iA AssoaiATfoJ^, 

Eiiglisli Goverimient — as far as I kuow — although of course there 
are exceptions here and there, and you may meet now and then in India 
what we might call a dangerous Communist ; yet, as a general rule, I 
believe that the more a native is educated the less inclined he is to 
favour any radical change in the state of things. And you may depend 
upon it the more they ai*e trusted the more sensible will they be what a 
great blessing to Lidia is the power which now governs the country. 
There is, I firmly believe, no more sincere appreciation of English laws, 
English morality, English literature, English habits of thought, and all 
that we value as the real backbone of our system of government in this 
country, than is to be found among the best-educated natives in India, 
And, therefore, I agree entirely with Mr. Dickinson as to the dis- 
advantages of the present system of exclusive nomination, and I should 
be extremely glad to see it supplemented by some such plan as that 
which I have endeavoured to sketch — that is, by the selection of men 
freely chosen by the provincial councils to represent their opinions. ' Yet 
I must say that I never found among my native colleagues at Bombay or 
Calcutta any want of readiness to give information, or backwardness in 
giving vent to independent opinions on topics that came before the 
council. The great measure which Lord Cannmg always advocated, and 
which he inaugurated by inviting natives to assist in the Councils 
of Calcutta, Madras, and Bambay, was confessedly experimental, 
I can give my testimony to its complete success so far, that the 
members have always delivered their opinions in a manner to com-r 
mand the respect of those with whom they were associated, and to 
encourage the English Government to proceed further in the same 
direction. Something has been said in reference to the views of the 
Duke of Wellington respecting native opinion on government, which 
may, I think, lead to misapprehension. He said that he had never met 
with a people who were such complete philosophers about all questions 
relating to their government. In saying this I have no doubt He re- 
ferred to their indifference to the form of the Imperial Government. He 
well knew the perfect system of municipal organisation in villages and 
districts, which made it practically a matter of moonshine to the Indian 
peasant who ruled at the capital of the country — ^whether a Moham- 
medan, a Hindoo, or an English government. He had seen that the 
natives would go' on in their village communities pretty much the same 
as they had always done, in accordance with their ancient institutions. 
And it is this which made the native indifferent as to who nominally 
ruled the country, or by what name the imperial power was called which 
held him subject. We must recollect, too, that the Duke of Wellington 
had at his side Malcolm, Elphinstone, Munro, and many more of the 

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same stamp, and hi liearuig their opinions he was sure to have the 
opinion of men who, in their own spheres, were accustomed to study and 
to watch native opinion in a far more effective manner than we can do 
now. To sum up, what I recommend is that you should leave as much 
as possible parochial duties to the parish, county work to the counties, 
and provincial work to the provinces ; and that in each grade — in India 
as in England — in the parish, in the county, and in the province, you 
should have an organisation capable of advising the local officers of 
Government in a systematic, recognised, and authoritative manner. I 
believe that, under such a system, far more will be eflFected than under 
any over-centralised imperial system like that of France. I have no 
doubt you will find that the general lines of any national policy which 
the people and Parliament of England may desire to carry out in India 
will be precisely those which the native educated opinion will support. 
If you will only summon the most intelligent natives in India to your 
Gouneils^ I b^ere joa need not fear l^iata wdl-considered policy, accord- 
ing to our English opinions, will ever be unacceptable to them. I fear I 
have detained you longer than I had any right to do, but the importance 
of the subject must plead my excuse, although the want of time obliges 
me also to omit many things to which I would have gladly referred. 

The Chairman. — Before we separate I feel that we can hardly do so 
without expressing once more our very- great obligation to Sir Bartle 
Frere for the most instructive and important paper which, perhaps, has 
been laid before the East India Association. I am sure it must be most 
gratifying to Sir Bartle Frere, not less than to the other gentlemen who 
have attended these meetings, to find the subject received with so much 
attention, and that it should have been followed up by such an interest- 
ing discussion — a discussion which, I think, reflected the highest credit 
upon the Association for the admirably temperate tone by which it has 
been characterised, especially on the part of the native gentlemen who 
have been pleased to address us. I cannot but think that when the re- 
port of the discussion is published in India, it will excite the liveliest 
interest, and that it may be followed by some good practical results. I 
hope, amongst other things, it will lead to the East India Association 
becoming more and more the focus to which the native gentlemen who 
visit this country from time to time may be drawn. Every year increases 
the number of these visitors to England ; they come from all parts of 
India, and represent the better-educated class of our native fellow- 
subjects, and if they can be induced to take part in the work of the East 
India Association, they will benefit us by giving us the reflection of the 
opinions of their fellow-countrymen, and this Association may con- 
gratulate itself upon having, in some measure, contributed to a realisa- 

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tion of Sir Bartle Frere's scheme. I will bow call upon you to vote your 
cordial thanks to Sir Bartle Frere. 

Sir MoRDAUNT Wells, in seconding the motion, observed that it was 
exceedingly gratifying to find that this great question had been brought 
before English public opinion by a member of the Indian Council, whd 
had served the highest offices in India, as member of the Legislative 
Gouncil, of the Supreme Council, and as Governor of Bombay. That 
such a man should bring his great knowledge and experience to such a 
task was, in the highest degiee, gratifying. " I agree, also," added the 
speaker, " with the gallant Chairman in commending the tone of this 
discussion, for it shows that we have but one feeling in discussing 
a topic like this, and that is, that we fully appreciate that we 
are dealing with a subject aflFecting the happiness and welfare of an 
immense population which has been for a time placed under our care.*' 

Mr. FiTZwiLLiAM observed that it would be but justice to acknowledge 
the deep obligations which were due to the Chairman for his presidency 
during the three sittings over which the discussion had extended, and 
for the care he had exhibited in carrying out the views of the East India 

Mr. Dickinson seconded the motion by observing that he was sure 
the meetiiig were anxious to express their thanks to Sir Bartle Frere and 
Sir Vincent Eyre. 

The two votes were then agreed to nem, con,, and the Chairman, in 
acknowledging the compliment, expressed the gratification he felt at 
doing whatever was in his power to further the interests of the East 
India' Association, and to advance the moral and social condition of the 
people of India. 

A vote of thanks was also passed to the Society of Arts for allowing 
the Association the use of their room. 

Printed by "W. J. Johkbon, 121, Fleet-street, London, B.C. 

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FOtJNDED 1866. 






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Eonlroii : 

121, Fleet Street, B<C. 

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CONTENTS OF VOL. VI.— Year 1872 


103.— 1872. March 12. I. T. Prichard— Tl»e Representation of India in 

Parliament 1 

104.— 1872. April 9. Resumed Discassion on Ditto , 27 

105.-1872. April 23. Hyde CLARKE^On the Progroisive Capabilities of 
the Natives of India in reference to Political 

and Industrial Development 53 

106.— 1872. May 7. R. H. Elliot— What the True Interesto of Man- 
chester really are in India 81 

107.— 1872. May 21. Dr. Geo. Birdwood— On Competition and the 

Indian Civil Service 113 

108. — 1872. April 12. Letter of Sympathy to the Countess of Mayo on 

the Death of the Earl of Mayo 144 

109.— 1872. June 18. Major Evans Bell— On Trust as the Basis of 

Imperial Policy 145 

110.-1872. July 9. F. W. Chesson— On the Best Means of Educating 

English Opinion on Indian Affairs 175 

111.-1872. July 23. Almaric Rctmsey- On Mahomedan Inheritance .. 205 
112.-1872. Sept. 23. Important Letter from the Maharajah Holkar... 223 

113.-1872. July 17. Annual Meeting and Report for 187172 225 

114.— 1871. July 12. Annual Meeting of the Bombay Branch 244 

Annual Report of Ditto 253 

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JOHN DICKINSON, Esq. (Chairman of the late Indian Reform 
Society), in the Chair, 

Paper read by I. T. Pkichard, Esq, 
The Representation of India in Parliament, 

In opening the proceedings the Chairman observed that he should like 
to say a few words, not upon the topic which was to engage their' 
attention that evening, but upon another, which, however, deeply affected 
the East India Association. It would be unbecoming for the Associa- 
tion to resume its sittings without an allusion to their late distinguished 
colleague, whose remains were carried to the grave that morning; and it 
was their interest as well as their duty to show the people of India' how 
much they honoured the late Professor Goldstiicker, and how greatly 
they lamented his loss. In fact, the confidence placed in him in India, 
rendered his loss an irreparable one to the Association : as it was felt to 
be in various learned societies with which he was connected; because 
they know that in filling up his place in their counsels, they might look 
in vain for that genius, and judgment, and learning, with which he used 
to inspire their proceedings. Taken from them in the zenith of his 
powers, he had conceived and partly executed a series of great works, and 
fully arranged his materials for them. Only a few days ago, in looking 
round his library. Dr. Goldstiicker remarked to him, ** The labour of thirty 
" years is collected in this room. What would become of nu if these were to 
" be burnt ?" He little thought what would become of the books and papers 
if the only man who possessed the key to their treasures should be suddenly 
cut down like the grass of the field. Professor Goldstiicker gradually 
raised himself by that union which seems peculiar to the German race — 
of brilliant intellect and sound understanding, with indefatigable in 
dustry — to the first rank of European scholarship, and his reputation 
was world-wide, as the highest authority on all matters connected with 
ancient Hindoo literature. His fame as a Sanskritist made him an 
Paut 5.— Vol \'l. b 

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ornament to our age; and it led to his being consulted by scholars, and 
even by statesmen and princes, in Europe and all over India, from one 
extremity of the empire to another. But the homage thus paid him, 
which might have turned a weaker brain than Goldstiicker's, never 
altered him. His manners were always perfectly simple and unassuming. 
And he was not only the scholar ; his mind was so little weighted by 
the cumbrous panoply of his vast erudition that it kept in the van of the 
contemporary movements of public opinion ; so that a stranger meeting 
him in society might have fancied that he was absorbed by some topic of 
the day. He was not only a scholar, for the friends who consulted him 
upon other than literary subjects were astonished at the mass of his 
information and .the abundance of his ideas, which he readily put at their 
service ; and the benevolence of his nature made him so* accessible 
and agreeable to every one, great or small, that even the children who 
knew the Professor acutely felt his loss. His relation with this Asso- 
ciation was a peculiar one. No other European appeared to understand 
the natives of India so well as Golds tiicker. His mind seemed to have . 
watched over their development from the infancy of their civilization, 
and to have a parental affection for them. Most natives of India 
who visited our shores, instinctively found their way to Goldstiicker. 
Whether he could help them or not, and he did help many of iheniy 
they knew they could place implicit confidence in him, and were 
sure of his sympathy for every honest cause. The only topic of con- 
sideration which suggested itself in connexion with such a bereavement is 
that this Association, to which so many of his hopes and aspirations were 
attached, still survives to promote some of his dearest objects. Professor 
Goldstiicker felt strongly that the union of able and honourable men in 
this Association, comprising some of the greatest celebrities, joined 
together for the unselfish and disinterested purpose of making the 
British Empire in India a blessing to the natives, and of. securing the 
happiness and content of the people, must in some way directly or 
indirectly effect great good, and that, too, quite independent of any 
special theory or plan which any individual might bring foi-ward. 
Professor Goldstiicker therefore gave the East India Association his 
full confidence, and brought to it that confidence of the natural leaders 
of native society without which it would have been impossible to 
progress. (Hear, hear.) . The Chairman then intimated that the 
subject for discussion would be introduced by a gentleman known to all 
who were interested in the affairs of India* as one who had spent some 
years in 'India, in making careful inquiries into the condition of the 
people, and who in doing this had enriched our libraries with volumes 
showing the valuable result of those labours. There was, therefore, no 

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doubt that the subject would be treated in an able and interesting 
manner, and respectful consideration of any suggestion he might make 
was certainly due to him. 

Mr. I. T. Prichard said : Perhaps not the least interesting part of 
iny address will be the announcement with which I shall conimence it 
— «.«., that it will be very brief. I generally find that on these occasions, 
when we have met to discuss some subject connected with India, the 
debate has been adjourned in consequence of very many gentlemen being 
de])rived of the opportunity of speaking. But the adjournment of a dis- 
cussion is an expedient I am always sorry to see resorted to, because, in 
the first place, it is difficult to get people together on the second occasion, 
and those who do attend have probably not been present on the first 
occasion, and hence are unacquainted with what has been said, and are 
not exactly sure of the propositions which have been laid down in the 
treatment of the subject before them, 1 shall therefore be as brief as I 
possibly can, and compress my remarks into a small compass, in order that 
a full and ample discussion may take place. All that 1 shall ask is that , 
the Chairman will afford me the opportunity of replying to any objections 
which may be raised. I feel that another remark is forced upon me, from 
the fact that within the last few days we have been put in possession, for 
the first time, of all the details of that most grievous and lamentable 
occurrence, the assassination of Lord Mayo — details so graphic that they 
seem to bring before us every particular of that shocking event almost 
as if it had passed before our very eyes. It may be unnecessary, but I 
feel somehow that I ought to make the remark, that in entering upon the 
consideration of a question which is intended to promote the benefit of 
the people of India we should recollect that we ought not to allow our 
minds to be in the slightest degree influenced by the hon-or which we 
all feel at the commission of that terrible ' criine. For I thoroughly 
believe that the statement which is made by the Calcutta correspondent 
of the Times, in his letter published to-day, is fully and literally true, and 
that the regret and sorrow which we have felt at this shuckijig ocaurrence 
is shared in to the fullest extent by the native population of India. 
(Hear.) And whether we accompany in our imagination that solemi> 
and mournful procession which carried the remains of the deceased 
Viceroy from- Government House across the locality we most of us 
know so well, or whether we stand in the midst of the bazaars and 
crowded cities of India, where, when the news was flashed to them by 
the electric telegraph, the consternation which fell upon the people was, 
as it has been described to us, as if a pestilence had swept over the 
land — we do so amid the deepest sympathies and the most heartfelt 
regrets of the whole native population of India. 

B 2 

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The subject I have the honour to bring before you to-night is one 
that has in some degree been touched upon by a member of the Associa- 
tion, but from a very different point of view, and with a totally different 
conclusion. In the first volume of the Journal of this Association there 
is a paper by Mr. Bonnerjee upon Kepresentative Government in India ; 
but there the similarity begins and ends. Mr. Bonnerjee advanced what 
has often been advocated — " Kepresentative Government in India ; " and 
his efforts were confined to proving that the people of India were not 
unfit for Representative Government. My proposition is one wholly 
different from this. 

I will not undertake to prove it, but will take for granted that it will 
be admitted by all who hear me, that it is for the best interests of both 
India and England that the union between the two countries should be 
lasting. This is the basis of my proposition. 

Two questions arise from this. First, Is that union likely to be 
permanent under the present system ? and secondly, If not, how is it to 
be made permanent ? 

As to the first question it is but repeating a truism which has been 
repeated so often that we have got into the habit which some people 
have got into with their prayers, of repeating the words without attri- 
buting any meaning to them. I do not think there are very many who 
believe really in the permanence of the union. I cannot enter into the 
subject in detail here without breaking my promise to be brief. I shall 
content myself with remarking that if, with the present system of ad- 
ministration in India, the union between the two countries is permanent, 
it will be in defiance of the experience of history and the insthicts of 
human nature. Many people are in the habit of saying that our 
existence in India, as it is, is an anomaly ; and that, therefore, if it is an 
anomaly our getting there, our remaining will be a no greater anomaly. 
But I do not think there is anything anomalous in our acquiring territory 
in India as we have done. It is a thing which has been done over and 
over again in the world's history. We got to India at a time when a 
great empire was breaking into pieces. We found a number of petty 
states controlling indeed extensive territory, and drawing large revenues, 
but imperfectly protected by mercenary armies always ready to revolt 
and betray their leaders. We found subject races who had for genera- 
tions been oppressed by foreign conquerors and satraps, who had no 
sympathy with the people, and for whom the people could have no real 
loyalty or attachment. Avarice and ambition, lust of power and lust of 
wealth, and the indulgence that wealth produces, were the ruling passions 
of the chiefs. There was present every possible element of discord and 
strife ; oppression upon the lower classes, selfishness among the upper ; 

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religious bigotry and long familiarity with constant political change. 
It was an age when men were not so scrupulous as they are now about 
the acquisition of territory by conquest. In Europe the feeling against 
it was much less pronounced than it is now. It was an age when com- 
munication between the East and West was difficult and tedious, and it 
was next to impossible for the Home Government to control the action 
and policy of adventurers and statesmsn fifteen thousand miles away, 
with no steam and no telegraph to shorten the distance. Such were 
some of the conditions under which our predecessors found themselves 
in India. Men of wonderful ability, they were, too often, with little 
principle, far more than a match for the enfeebled satraps and subah- 
dars of the old Mogul Empire then breaking up. They easily made 
their way to empire — ^partly by conquest, more frequently by intrigue 
and by aiding one section of the community against the other, or by 
assisting some political party to overcome its rival, taking care to make 
a good bargain every time such assistance was rendered. The transition 
from the position of traders to that of conquerors was, under such 
circumstances, easy and natural. The prize was tempting. It was se- 
cured, not without exertion or difficulty ; but the result was only what 
might have been expected, and in full accordance with the experience of 
history. How aptly does the following sketch of the foreign policy of 
Kome by a master hand — Ortolan — describe the process by which our 
Indian Empire was built up. You might almost fancy the historian had 
his eye fixed upon the career of Hastings and of Clive when he penned 
these lines : — 

" To sow discord among different nations in order to array one 
" against another; to assist the vanquished in conquering their con- 
" querors; to husband its own resources, and, under the pretext of 
" defending its allies, to exhaust them; to invade the territories of its 
" neighbours ; to interfere in the disputes of other states, so as to protect 
" the weaker party, and finally subjugate both; to wage unceasing wars, 
** and prove itself stronger hi reverses than in success; to evade oaths 
" and treaties by subterfuge; to practice every kind of injustice under 
" the specious guise of equity — this was the policy that gave Kome the 
*• sceptre of all Italy, and which was destined to secure for it that of the 
*• entire known world."* 

With the cessation of conquest, however, and the recognition of the 
duties which the acquisition of our empire in the East involved, the con- 
ditions became wholly changed. Instead of backing up one rival chief 
against another ; instead of intriguing with one subahdar to overthrow 

* 8«e Pricfiaid uud Nasinith's **Ortolau/' p 189. 

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another, or with an ambitious minister to supplant his soverign ; instead 
of employing Hindoo and Mohammedan .mercenaries, to slaughter Sikhs, 
and Sikhs and Pathans to slaughter Hindoos and Hindoos tanee Moham- 
medans";' instead of reseating by the buyonet some dethroned prince in 
the palace of his ancestors, and driving out the usurper to make way for a 
-politic&l protege — we lay ourselves out to maintain the peace of all India, to 
keep down rivalry among chiefs, to. force the Hindoo and the Mohammedan, 
the Sikh ' and the Pathan, to live in peace and amity ; we introduce 
one uniform system of law, one uniform procedure, and, as far as possible, 
one language ; we lay ourselves out to educate the masses, and though 
not so successful as we might wish, yet the results in the aggregate are 
stupendous ; we do our best in every way, and with every means we 
can employ, to weld into one people the different races of India. This 
process is being very rapidly carried out, not only by the efforts which 
we are systematically making to effect it, but by the spontaneous ope- 
ration of a law which is at this age of the world's history in activity 
in every quarter of the civilized globe. It is the law by which the old 
balance of power, founded on political divisions of a political basis, is 
yielding to a balance of power founded on the principle of nationality. 

The effect that this change must have upon the relations on which 
the British Indian Government stands to the people of this country is 
too obvious to need to be insisted upon. Briefly, as Mr. Bonnerjee has 
well expressed it, " the British Government of India, under the present 
" system, cannot be permanent, because it owns and recognizes no respon- 
" sibility to the people of India." It recognizes a duty, but holds itself 
accountable to no one for the mode in which it performs that duty ; and 
the result is the same as if it refused to recognize it altt^gether. 

It is an invidious task, and it might possibly be a dangerous one, 
to point out in detail the places where our hold upon India is the weakest. 
It would be very easy to do it ; but one is liable to the imputation of 
being unpatrioti*, and of being an alarmist. I do not wish to lay myself 
open to either charge, and will therefore confine myself to general prin- 
ciples. The conditions which have aided us hitherto in our political 
difficulties in India, and extricated us from them, are new wholly changed. 
In our next political dilemma we shall find those conditions no longer oft 
our side. On former occasions, and notably on the last great occasion, 
OUT principal efforts were directed to discover how best to utilize the 
sympathies of the mass of the people who were with us On the next 
occasion we shall have none of their sympathies to utilize. By legis- 
lation and taxation, obnoxious rather because it is unsuited to the people 
than because it is in itself oppressive; by extravagant expenditure, 
rather from neglect of the proper supervision of public departments than 

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because it is vicious and corrupt ; by the establishment and extension over 
the whole country of a police force, so constituted as to become an 
engine of enormous oppression in the hands of unscrupulous subordinates; 
above all, by an uncertain and capricious policy towards the. heads of 
independent states — treating them, when it suits our purpose, as indepen- 
dent . princes with whom our relations are regulated by treaty, at 
another time as British subjects, but denying to them the ordinary pri- 
vileges of British subjects ; by putting strained and distorted interpre- 
tations upon the words of treaties ; — we have done sa much to alienate the 
aflfections of both chiefs and people, that in the event of any disruption 
of the existing conditions between European powers — the opening of the 
Eastern question, for instance, or a war with America — it is not acting the 
part of an alarmist to say that our position in India would be one of 
exceeding peril. 

But apart from all such considerations of possible political contin- 
gencies — and they are contingencies which it is not wise altogether to 
ignore — if we but proceed by the light which all past history affords 
we can see but one of two alternative solutions of the Indian question. 
Either, as time goes on, the races of India, growing in intelligence and 
enlightenment, and gradually merging their race distinctions in a 
principle of nationality — and the progress already made towards this 
result within the last few years has been striking — either the races of 
India will become welded into one great people, will recognize their 
political rights, and proceed to claim them by separating from Great 
Britain; or the union between England and India must be made per- 
manent by the actual incorporation of the latter into the British Empire. 
Some one may say, " It is already incorporated. It became incorporated 
"when Her Majesty's Proclamation of 1858 was promulgated." I 
admit it ought to have been so incorporated then, and it was in theory 
incorporated, but not in practice ; for from the date of that Procla- 
mation a right accrued to the people of India, which if it came to be a 
right in possession would have the effect of so incorporating India in the 
Empire. I well know that the words I am about to utter will grate 
harshly upon official ears, and possibly be deemed by many who hear me 
a paradox ; yet I speak them with the fullest conviction that they will 
be recognized hereafter, if they are rejected now, as the enunciation of a 
solemn truth. I say a right accrued to India from the date when Her 
Majesty's Proclamation was published in Calcutta in November, 1858; 
a right, the concession of which, while it is the only key to the difficul- 
ties every day growing up around our position in India, would be the 
certain means of cementing the union between Great Britain and our 
Eastern Empire ; a right, the denial of which will before long sever the 

Digitized by VjOOQIC 


relations between the two countries — the right of Representation in 

The word right is used in a political, not a legal sense ; that is to say, 
a conces.sion which is based on generally recognised principles of justice, 
and is admitted by common consent to be due to a certain class or 
portion of the community, is a political right. It may be defined a